Has never played a good game. Is an absolute liability in the ruck and even worse around the ground.

Surely knowing Jamar may have been sore it would have been a better option to play Cook, have Martin ruck with relief from Dunn or Sellar.

I know Cook is only just starting to get consistent games in and develop his body and they don't want to gift games but this is just ridiculous.

Spencer is just horrendous.

Let me remind you of what you said, this is not just an issue of you suggesting he's not up to it you started a thread just to shitcan him. I think most would agree that he played well this week and he also played well last week and actually was amongst our best players.

You also suggested Cook get a game before him, well that worked well for you didn't it; he's on the verge of being dropped from the Casey side and from what I hear today he is in in danger of being delisted at the end of the year.

Your problem is you just can't handle the truth, you got it wrong and all the wriggling in the World won't change that, instead of just saying yeah, ok, I was wrong, you actually try to justify what you said.

I don't know if you noticed it but unlike Jamar he doesn't hit the ball to the bottom of the pack he actually tries to tap it clear of the pack to one of ours; he made some blues doing it today but we will benefit from it in the long run.

He will be a player and a long term one at that.

As with others, Spencer is winning me over with his attitude and his aggression.

Is he the next Dean Cox? NO, but there's something there to work with.

Let me remind you of what you said, this is not just an issue of you suggesting he's not up to it you started a thread just to shitcan him. I think most would agree that he played well this week and he also played well last week and actually was amongst our best players.

You also suggested Cook get a game before him, well that worked well for you didn't it; he's on the verge of being dropped from the Casey side and from what I hear today he is in in danger of being delisted at the end of the year.

Your problem is you just can't handle the truth, you got it wrong and all the wriggling in the World won't change that, instead of just saying yeah, ok, I was wrong, you actually try to justify what you said.

I don't know if you noticed it but unlike Jamar he doesn't hit the ball to the bottom of the pack he actually tries to tap it clear of the pack to one of ours; he made some blues doing it today but we will benefit from it in the long run.

He will be a player and a long term one at that.

As per my last post Robbie, you and I just agree to disagree.

I mounted the Cook argument for forward structure reasons, not as a ruckman. But you can be selective in the manner in which you read things.

Yep Cook is really battling.

How have I gotten it wrong with Spencer? In 5 years he's been in the best once and played an ok game today.

Wow. Yep, really proved me wrong there.

Give Cook 5 years and he might do that too.

As I said, if he proves me wrong then that is great for him and the MFC.

But he hasn't yet shown enough to change my opinion.

And all your bleating and carrying on won't change it either.

Good luck to you Jake, and to you Robbie.

As per my last post Robbie, you and I just agree to disagree.

I mounted the Cook argument for forward structure reasons, not as a ruckman. But you can be selective in the manner in which you read things.

Yep Cook is really battling.

How have I gotten it wrong with Spencer? In 5 years he's been in the best once and played an ok game today.

Wow. Yep, really proved me wrong there.

Give Cook 5 years and he might do that too.

As I said, if he proves me wrong then that is great for him and the MFC.

But he hasn't yet shown enough to change my opinion.

And all your bleating and carrying on won't change it either.

Good luck to you Jake, and to you Robbie.

How disingenuous, he has had a year off with an acl injury but let's not let the facts get in the way shall we? He was playing some good football before he was injured, fortunately for us the coach can see a player in him and you're not on the selection committee.

Cook, yeah good one, you suggest we promote a kid who is struggling in the seconds, to full forward in the firsts.

The key to ruckmen as one-dimensional as Spencer is the use of their body.

He knows he is big and likes contact.

He is Jamar's heir at this point.

I will say that I don't rate the importance of ruckmen greatly - effective tap ruckmen are fantastic. But what do they do once it hits the ground? Athletic jumping ruckmen are also pleasing on the eye, but what happens when they are lost the rest of the time or do what Jeff White did - sit a kick back from the play. What a waste.

My point is a sideways point - I don't want a ruckman picked with 3 or 4 in the upcoming draft, if the presence and prognosticated development of Spencer means that doesn't happen then that is great.

How have I gotten it wrong with Spencer? In 5 years he's been in the best once and played an ok game today.

In an earlier post you compared Jakes hit out count with that of McEvoy (28 vs 39?)...in all fairness you should perhaps also compare their game time experience (very important in ruck men I would think)... Both are 23 years old, both commenced their playing careers in 2009 (Jake debuted in Rd1 2009, so I'm not sure where your 5 yrs comes from)), Spencer in an injury interrupted career has a total of 14 games under his belt, McEvoy has 66 games worth of experience.

The last couple of games have shown it is starting to click for Jake... If he can stay injury free, I would contend that by the time he has 66 games worth of experience, he will be light years ahead of the likes of McEvoy.

How disingenuous, he has had a year off with an acl injury but let's not let the facts get in the way shall we? He was playing some good football before he was injured, fortunately for us the coach can see a player in him and you're not on the selection committee.

Cook, yeah good one, you suggest we promote a kid who is struggling in the seconds, to full forward in the firsts.

Wow you're selective Robbie. In previous posts I'd granted Spencer a years grace for the knee.

And Cook was kicking goals and had been in the best a few times at Casey seniors when I made that suggestion.

But that's ok Robbie, you look at Spencer with rose coloured glasses, I don't.

Just different opinions in the end, as much as you try to ram yours down my throat and believe you are right, I don't and time will tell.

The key to ruckmen as one-dimensional as Spencer is the use of their body.

He knows he is big and likes contact.

He is Jamar's heir at this point.

I will say that I don't rate the importance of ruckmen greatly - effective tap ruckmen are fantastic. But what do they do once it hits the ground? Athletic jumping ruckmen are also pleasing on the eye, but what happens when they are lost the rest of the time or do what Jeff White did - sit a kick back from the play. What a waste.

My point is a sideways point - I don't want a ruckman picked with 3 or 4 in the upcoming draft, if the presence and prognosticated development of Spencer means that doesn't happen then that is great.

I agree that ruckmen should not be picked as early as 3 or 4 - big guys take time to develop and an early pick can be a case of hit or miss, too big a gamble (unless they have some other special quality).

We do need strong midfield types - although most players in teams are 'midfielders' these days, so I'm probably stating the obvious.

Wow you're selective Robbie. In previous posts I'd granted Spencer a years grace for the knee.

And Cook was kicking goals and had been in the best a few times at Casey seniors when I made that suggestion.

But that's ok Robbie, you look at Spencer with rose coloured glasses, I don't.

Just different opinions in the end, as much as you try to ram yours down my throat and believe you are right, I don't and time will tell.

Not selective at all, the issue is foresight to be able to see if a player will make it or not, and it would appear you just don't have any.

i spent years bagging Bate and Miller, listening to the experts with their 'give him a go' the faith was repaid with them wasnt it

if spencer ever plays a good game i will streak nude at the G

Must have had the belt and braces on yesterday? It's getting closer!

We have four Ruckmen who can play when fit .

I think we will need all four going into the next few seasons .

They have a higher rate of injury than other positions and they take longer to learn to play to their strengths .

None of them are hopeless yet none is a star.

We have four Ruckmen who can play when fit .

I think we will need all four going into the next few seasons .

They have a higher rate of injury than other positions and they take longer to learn to play to their strengths .

None of them are hopeless yet none is a star.

I agree we need all four to last out the year. But in a single game and if Russian is fit can we play Russian,Spencer and Mitch? I would prefer Mitch to stay forward and I would think he will if his injury delays his pre season. So even though I love all that Pencil is doing he isn't a marking tall at the moment. Stef Martin has showed more as the 2nd ruck/forward. If I had to pick out of Stef and Pencil to ruck all day I'd take pencil but as our 2nd ruckman I'd take Stef at the moment.

Am I right in seeing him hold the top of the ball with one hand whilst about to kick it on the run.

Spencer was one of our few shining slights yesterday. He was fantastic. That chase onto the wing to win the one-on-one was superb. I think he's got a future.

We have four Ruckmen who can play when fit .

I think we will need all four going into the next few seasons .

They have a higher rate of injury than other positions and they take longer to learn to play to their strengths .

None of them are hopeless yet none is a star.

Hmmn, after today I'm looking forward to November.

Mids, one tall one early & 3 runners.

Let me remind you of what you said, this is not just an issue of you suggesting he's not up to it you started a thread just to shitcan him. I think most would agree that he played well this week and he also played well last week and actually was amongst our best players.

You also suggested Cook get a game before him, well that worked well for you didn't it; he's on the verge of being dropped from the Casey side and from what I hear today he is in in danger of being delisted at the end of the year.

Your problem is you just can't handle the truth, you got it wrong and all the wriggling in the World won't change that, instead of just saying yeah, ok, I was wrong, you actually try to justify what you said.

I don't know if you noticed it but unlike Jamar he doesn't hit the ball to the bottom of the pack he actually tries to tap it clear of the pack to one of ours; he made some blues doing it today but we will benefit from it in the long run.

He will be a player and a long term one at that.

Ironically it is the current attitude being directed at Cook that Spencer copped for his entire career up until this point in time. It has only taken him until he is close to 24 to get the chance again and take it, funny what happens when you give young KPP time. Watts is another example, even Frawley of players who turned it around after 2-3 season.

Spencer was terrific on the weekend.

What I am seeing at the moment with our younger payers is incremental improvement each week.

McDonald has improved week on week.

Blease ditto and more focussed on getting rid of his mistakes.

It tells me that we have some good coaching going on in the background.

Spencer was terrific on the weekend.

What I am seeing at the moment with our younger payers is incremental improvement each week.

McDonald has improved week on week.

Blease ditto and more focussed on getting rid of his mistakes.

It tells me that we have some good coaching going on in the background.

Agree to a point. Quite a few of these young players are only now able to put consecutive matches together after coming back from long term injury - as well as Spencer there's Blease, Tapscott, Strauss, even Grimes at the beginning of the year, now Jetta. Next year this will apply to Watts & Jurrah, and Martin & Morton if they're still around, & not forgetting Gawn & Taggert.

Not many of our younger brigade have been able to string together say 15-20 games without injury. Perhaps that's one reason for the feeling that we haven't got enough out of them collectively.

Hardly a counter argument. He wasn't even in Melbourne's best players.

He played ok today. Good on him. If he proves me wrong then that is fantastic for MFC, however let's not get ahead of ourselves.

He had 28 hitouts. McEvoy had 39. So he still got beaten in the ruck which is his primary role.

Possessions and tackles were about the same.

As i have said before. His endeavour is great and he is probably a ripping kid.

But after 5 years, today was hardly a counter argument and if it wasn't for injuries he'd still be behind Jamar, Martin and Gawn.

Good luck Jake. Keep showing that endeavour and i hope for you and MFC my opinion is wrong. But nothing has changed it so far.

As for you and i Robbie, guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Yes he was.This is the folly of only using stats and newspaper articles to back up an argument.

Yes he was.This is the folly of only using stats and newspaper articles to back up an argument.

Not on the Melbourne website Doc which is what I was using.

Perhaps check your facts first next time....

I think Jake has improved with every game played this time round.

Another three games to the end of 2012.

IMO If he keeps improving then a contract for 2013 looks likely.

There are far worse at the MFC than him.

Not on the Melbourne website Doc which is what I was using.

Perhaps check your facts first next time....

The same article that has this picture:

With the caption:

Joel MacDonald had 27 touches for the Demons against the Saints

Yeah, obviously that's a real representation of the game.

I could perhaps suggest you do the same.

Agree to a point. Quite a few of these young players are only now able to put consecutive matches together after coming back from long term injury - as well as Spencer there's Blease, Tapscott, Strauss, even Grimes at the beginning of the year, now Jetta. Next year this will apply to Watts & Jurrah, and Martin & Morton if they're still around, & not forgetting Gawn & Taggert.

Not many of our younger brigade have been able to string together say 15-20 games without injury. Perhaps that's one reason for the feeling that we haven't got enough out of them collectively.

Good points, lets hope that Misson will start to stem the flow of injuries on the second full pre season.

Watts has flourished under Neeld as well after a rocky start.

I am really hopeful that they are all heading in the right direction.

What. No bump this week Robbie?

Beaten in hit outs again, less possessions than the opposing ruckman again and far less marks which is a signature of a good mobile ruckman.

Oh and we were playing an atrocious team.

And we haven't even mentioned how well he used the ball today.

And Giles has only played 1 year.

Sugar coat this one Robbie....

What. No bump this week Robbie?

Beaten in hit outs again, less possessions than the opposing ruckman again and far less marks which is a signature of a good mobile ruckman.

Oh and we were playing an atrocious team.

And we haven't even mentioned how well he used the ball today.

And Giles has only played 1 year.

Sugar coat this one Robbie....

Pretty sure Giles was on Ports list for 2-3 years without a break from AFL, try again