The Melbourne Midfield

[DeeSpencer 26,069]

There are 2 main issues with out midfield.

1. Clearances

2. They don't work hard enough to get forward and help keep the ball in and to get back and help get the ball out.

Personally I think Neeld has decided he wont try and turn guys into midfielders too much. He'll let Sylvia and Davey play forward and Morton and Grimes play back.

Let's start with issue 1 - clearances. Moloney is an interesting one. I'm impressed that he's trimmed down so he can cover more ground. That's important as he could never break a tag and has a habit of getting burnt the other way. But at the same time he's still the best we have for now. Jamar and the rucks have to step up again this year. I'd love to see Jamar and Martin go to another level with their ability to win hitouts, and win them to more than one area. This year I think Moloney will be rotated out of the hit zone area that Jamar and he used to combine to so often. I think its time McKenzie, Trengove, Jones, Gysberts and Magner have a run in that position to try something different. I'm not convinced by Bate but he's another option.

Issue 2 - work rate. This is where I see Nicholson, Jones and Bail coming in to the game plan. As the 3 best runners on our list I see a big role for them playing on the wings or tagging. Nicholson has to develop his accountability but a full AFL preseason and winning our time trials should count for something. Not to mention his pace. This is a big year for Jones to prove he can match up against a decent opponent and play a balanced game with finding the footy but not getting exposed the other way.

Neeld's first statement at the club was to make us the hardest team to play against. I expect our midfield to reflect that desire this year, and whilst we won't be the hardest to play against I expect our midfield to have a strong focus on physicality, tackling and hard running.

[Sir Why You Little 37,119]

Fitness. Watch the Hawthorn game again. We lack fitness after a burst.

[Demonsterative 3,020]

Good post Master. Intelligent and well balanced points. Good read

[Hannibal 5,814]

You need around a dozen...

Trengove, Moloney, Jones, Sylvia... Grimes at a stretch... Gysberts, Viney, Taggert not ready yet... McKenzie slowly coming back from injury... Tapscott same, & not convinced he's a mid... Bail runs all day and is good for a cameo... Bate... 2 compo picks that will take longer, if we take mids at all (we must)... Morton more suited to playing off the centre square so he can read the play coming to him, and doesn't have to contest as much at stoppages... Davey who knows? and forward line now apparently... Nicholson lacks polish... Evans who knows?

Not quite the dozen gun mids we need.

I know what you mean, but no team has a "dozen gun mids". In reality, sides have 10-12 players that are capable of rotating through the middle. Many of them will have limited time in there, but enough to allow for rotations, match-up difficulties, manning up, getting a player into the game, etc.

There haven't been too many teams that have had as many as 5 'gun' mids. Brisbane at their best had Voss, Lappin, Black, Aker, Power; Geelong - Ablett, Bartel, Corey, Selwood, Chapman. Those teams were the exceptions. Collingwood have been well served by Swan, Pendlebury, Ball, and (more recently) Thomas, Hawthorn won a flag with Hodge, Mitchell, and Crawford. They weren't the best team that year, but they also had Franklin. Their better mids were well supported by Sewell and Lewis. The Saints never won the ultimate, but were well placed with Hayes, Ball, Dal Santo and Montagna. West Coast had Kerr, Cousins, Judd with Fletcher and Embley in support.

Let's cut to the quick - Jones, Moloney, Bail, Bate, Sylvia and a host of others are the midfield support acts in our quest to win a flag. And the support acts are crucial. But it's stars that win you flags. It's the midfield guns that take you to the next level and allow you to compete when the games are at their fiercest. The intensity in finals is 3 notches higher than just about any home and away game. We need Trengove, Gysberts, Viney, or a 'Swan' that comes from the woodwork to become our 'gun' mids. They might come from this year's super draft. Who knows, it might be Grimes.

These guys will at times rotate through the midfield this year: Moloney, Jones, Gysberts, Trengove, McKenzie, Bail, Sylvia, Magner, Green, Tapscott, Couch, Evans, Howe, Grimes, Bartam, Bate, Watts, Davey, and more. Having enough players to take their turn in a rotation isn't the problem. Unearthing some genuine 'gun' mids is our challenge. I'm actually very confident that we'll compete at a much higher level this year. But until we have genuine midfield class we'll be making up the numbers. And when I say making up the numbers I mean anywhere from 5-12. That said, I reckon we'll make the 8 this year and it will be the stepping stone that gives this list confidence that they're heading in the right direction. Once we've broken new turf and are able to consolidate that position we'll only be a couple of midfield guns away from being serious players. Success starts to breed success.

Btw Lutz, not all of this post is directed at you, as I'm aware that I'm probably preaching to the converted.

[dee-luded 2,959]

Neeld should improve our midfielders given his role at Collingwood . Trengove will get better .

Maybe Grimes and Sylvia will get some decent time in there . Lets face it , last years set up doesn't work so we need to be pro-active .

Now that Grimes is co-skipper going into the midfield could be just his go .

And I reckon Sylvia should play in the centre against the good sides . Putting everything else aside he can go hard at the ball when he wants to , he reads the play well , has very good disposal and has a bit of mongrel as well .

Sylvia is often wasted on the HFF against the good sides .

Cheers

I don't mind the Idea of Silvia being in the Pivot, or as a forward pocket changing rover. But now I prefer to have Howe, Green, McDonald & Jurrah as half forwards.

[DeeSpencer 26,069]

Fitness. Watch the Hawthorn game again. We lack fitness after a burst.

Well put, that really is the underlying factor. Hopefully our best runners in Nicholson, Bail, Trengove and Jones really do measure up against the best in the comp and the likes of Moloney, Magner and Couch are around the mark. Gysberts has made good strides this year, a positive step for us as a team will be the point where best on grounds for Gys in the VFL doesn't mean automatic promotion. Unfortunately McKenzie and Tapscott haven't due to injury. I think limited fitness is a big reason why Sylvia, Davey and Grimes will probably stay out of the starting midfield rotations.

[Sir Why You Little 37,119]

Nice post BH. The list we have is what it is. It is up to the FD to get them mentally stronger and fitter.

[Macca 17,032]

I don't mind the Idea of Silvia being in the Pivot, or as a forward pocket changing rover. But now I prefer to have Howe, Green, McDonald & Jurrah as half forwards.

Yep , in an ideal world we'd have a gun midfield with Sylvia in the forward line . But , right now , we're a fair way short of that gun midfield .

I am confident however , that Mark Neeld will improve our midfield immeasurably .

I'm hoping to see a much fiercer attack on the ball , more 1%ers ( blocking , shepherding etc ) , better cohesion and a far more direct style .

Collingwood does hug the boundary a lot but out of the middle they are often very direct . A quick kick to CHF is what I see a fair bit from the Pies ( from centre clearances ) In fact , a number of the good sides have this practice .

Cheers

.

[Lutz 76]

...

Completely agree (although not sure Bate will be an effective mid).

We just need to get more quality in there.

Stars, as you put it.

We have the supporting mids.

Trengove & Gysberts imo will become stars.

McKenzie will be a beast, as will Viney. But we need more.

Hello compo picks!

Only thing is that we'll have to wait.

I don't expect our midfield to be too strong in 2012, and it will be the main thing holding us back.

[monoccular 17,569]

You need around a dozen... Trengove, Moloney, Jones, Sylvia... Grimes at a stretch... Gysberts, Viney, Taggert not ready yet... McKenzie slowly coming back from injury... Tapscott same, & not convinced he's a mid... Bail runs all day and is good for a cameo... Bate... 2 compo picks that will take longer, if we take mids at all (we must)... Morton more suited to playing off the centre square so he can read the play coming to him, and doesn't have to contest as much at stoppages... Davey who knows? and forward line now apparently... Nicholson lacks polish... Evans who knows? Not quite the dozen gun mids we need. With the recruitment of Magner & couch, it's an effort to make sure we break even in the middle.

Please name any side with a "dozen gun mids" ! IMO there are barely 1-2 dozen gun mids in the entire competition.

I look forward to the list.

PS: I do agree though that we are short of "gun mids"

Edited February 12, 2012 by monoccular

[Angelus BTVS 31]

IMO there is a deeper lying reason as to why the midfield and rest of the team for that matter has a cloud of doubt over them. The thing that makes an elite professional sportsperson standout from a professional sportsperson is played out above thier shoulders. All professional footballers are fit enough to play the game some may have a freak athletic ability to help seperate them but they're very few. Melbourne for far too long have been inconsistent not only game to game but during games and season to season with predominantly the same playing group over several years think back to late 90's and early 2000's one year in the finals next year down the bottom one minute up by 40 odd points within a qtr losing or struggling to hold on to a 1 point lead. This IMO says for far too long there has been an acceptance of mental mediocrity on field from coaching right thru the playing list.

If you go back to the late 80's melbourne did not really have the most talented list on paper but they worked hard for one another under a common goal get Robbie F to a final and Northey squeezed every ounce out of them. The likes of Geelong and Collingwood arent just made up of talented footballers they are made up of a shared common desire to get the best out of themselves and thier teammates. Once a squad of players are all fighting under a common goal for eachother they can achieve great things.

The reason why the likes of a Trengove/Grimes stands out so much is how mentally tough they are, how driven, football astute, desire to win the contest whatever it may be, a clearance, a mark, a tackle the want to see a teammate improve but also the ability to make a teammate better, plus they have plenty of talent that they continually desire to improve upon. It is in selecting the players with the right mental makeup that melbourne will improve as a team unfortunately too many of melbournes past leadership group did not appear to have the right mental attributes hence not surprised by this years overhaul of the leadership group. This is where Melbourne will improve Neeld/Craig/Misson have consistently spoken of Elite performance and from the outside and talk from the players they are being shown what elite performance consists of. Melbourne has a lot of talent on its list but how many of these talented players appear to lack mental toughness and the desire to unite as a team when its required on a consistent basis.

bringing in the likes of a magner, couch & nicholson to help push the current young and older players shows them that talent can get you drafted but wont grant you a long career unless you have the desire and mental strenghth to continually push yourself and others to get better. If any of Magner, Couch or Nicholson prove to be in melbournes best 22 then great but if they help show up attitude deficiencies in the current more highly touted players and also help to establish a united team work ethic then that is just as important. The penny can still drop for many Melbourne players to realize the mental toughness required to not only be a professional footballer but an Elite professional footballing TEAM.

Im not expecting it all to come together after one pre season but i am expecting to see a beginning and eventually when all the players on the ground are working for each other with a desire to shepard, block, tackle, gut run and help thier teammate then all of a sudden the Midfield will look so much better.

[Lutz 76]

"Guns" or "gun mids" are subjective terms.

Collingwood has/had Swan, Ball, Pendlebury, Thomas, Sidebottom, Beams, Didak, Wellingham, Johnson, Krakouer, Shaw, O'Bree/Blair/Buckley/Davis...

Geelong has/had Corey, Selwood, Bartel, Chapman, Ling, Wojcinski, Johnson, Kelly, Enright, Ablett/Duncan, Menzel/Christensen/Hogan/Prismall/Byrnes/Guthrie/Smedts...

Even Carlton has Judd, Gibbs, Murphy, Scotland, Robinson, Yarran, Simpson, Carazzo, Curnow/McLean, Lucas/Collins/Garlett/Russell...

Not all superstars, but many of them at least the equal of any of our mids right now.

Clutching at straws to get a full dozen, but didn't expect "a dozen" to be taken so literally either, and some of them are not pure mids but spend time running through there.

For our benefit we could probably include guys like Garland who will venture upfield at times.

But I'm talking in more general terms, before you try to turn it into a mathematical equation.

[rjay 25,061]

I know what you mean, but no team has a "dozen gun mids". In reality, sides have 10-12 players that are capable of rotating through the middle. Many of them will have limited time in there, but enough to allow for rotations, match-up difficulties, manning up, getting a player into the game, etc.

There haven't been too many teams that have had as many as 5 'gun' mids. Brisbane at their best had Voss, Lappin, Black, Aker, Power; Geelong - Ablett, Bartel, Corey, Selwood, Chapman. Those teams were the exceptions. Collingwood have been well served by Swan, Pendlebury, Ball, and (more recently) Thomas, Hawthorn won a flag with Hodge, Mitchell, and Crawford. They weren't the best team that year, but they also had Franklin. Their better mids were well supported by Sewell and Lewis. The Saints never won the ultimate, but were well placed with Hayes, Ball, Dal Santo and Montagna. West Coast had Kerr, Cousins, Judd with Fletcher and Embley in support.

Let's cut to the quick - Jones, Moloney, Bail, Bate, Sylvia and a host of others are the midfield support acts in our quest to win a flag. And the support acts are crucial. But it's stars that win you flags. It's the midfield guns that take you to the next level and allow you to compete when the games are at their fiercest. The intensity in finals is 3 notches higher than just about any home and away game. We need Trengove, Gysberts, Viney, or a 'Swan' that comes from the woodwork to become our 'gun' mids. They might come from this year's super draft. Who knows, it might be Grimes.

These guys will at times rotate through the midfield this year: Moloney, Jones, Gysberts, Trengove, McKenzie, Bail, Sylvia, Magner, Green, Tapscott, Couch, Evans, Howe, Grimes, Bartam, Bate, Watts, Davey, and more. Having enough players to take their turn in a rotation isn't the problem. Unearthing some genuine 'gun' mids is our challenge. I'm actually very confident that we'll compete at a much higher level this year. But until we have genuine midfield class we'll be making up the numbers. And when I say making up the numbers I mean anywhere from 5-12. That said, I reckon we'll make the 8 this year and it will be the stepping stone that gives this list confidence that they're heading in the right direction. Once we've broken new turf and are able to consolidate that position we'll only be a couple of midfield guns away from being serious players. Success starts to breed success.

Btw Lutz, not all of this post is directed at you, as I'm aware that I'm probably preaching to the converted.

Well put, let's hope we find "the Swan coming from the woodwork" along with improvement from Trengove and co.

IMO there is a deeper lying reason as to why the midfield and rest of the team for that matter has a cloud of doubt over them. The thing that makes an elite professional sportsperson standout from a professional sportsperson is played out above thier shoulders. All professional footballers are fit enough to play the game some may have a freak athletic ability to help seperate them but they're very few. Melbourne for far too long have been inconsistent not only game to game but during games and season to season with predominantly the same playing group over several years think back to late 90's and early 2000's one year in the finals next year down the bottom one minute up by 40 odd points within a qtr losing or struggling to hold on to a 1 point lead. This IMO says for far too long there has been an acceptance of mental mediocrity on field from coaching right thru the playing list.

If you go back to the late 80's melbourne did not really have the most talented list on paper but they worked hard for one another under a common goal get Robbie F to a final and Northey squeezed every ounce out of them. The likes of Geelong and Collingwood arent just made up of talented footballers they are made up of a shared common desire to get the best out of themselves and thier teammates. Once a squad of players are all fighting under a common goal for eachother they can achieve great things.

The reason why the likes of a Trengove/Grimes stands out so much is how mentally tough they are, how driven, football astute, desire to win the contest whatever it may be, a clearance, a mark, a tackle the want to see a teammate improve but also the ability to make a teammate better, plus they have plenty of talent that they continually desire to improve upon. It is in selecting the players with the right mental makeup that melbourne will improve as a team unfortunately too many of melbournes past leadership group did not appear to have the right mental attributes hence not surprised by this years overhaul of the leadership group. This is where Melbourne will improve Neeld/Craig/Misson have consistently spoken of Elite performance and from the outside and talk from the players they are being shown what elite performance consists of. Melbourne has a lot of talent on its list but how many of these talented players appear to lack mental toughness and the desire to unite as a team when its required on a consistent basis.

bringing in the likes of a magner, couch & nicholson to help push the current young and older players shows them that talent can get you drafted but wont grant you a long career unless you have the desire and mental strenghth to continually push yourself and others to get better. If any of Magner, Couch or Nicholson prove to be in melbournes best 22 then great but if they help show up attitude deficiencies in the current more highly touted players and also help to establish a united team work ethic then that is just as important. The penny can still drop for many Melbourne players to realize the mental toughness required to not only be a professional footballer but an Elite professional footballing TEAM.

Im not expecting it all to come together after one pre season but i am expecting to see a beginning and eventually when all the players on the ground are working for each other with a desire to shepard, block, tackle, gut run and help thier teammate then all of a sudden the Midfield will look so much better.

Also well put, working as a unit is crucial to our being competitive in the short term and to longer term premiership success.

[old55 23,687]

I don't mind the Idea of Silvia being in the Pivot, or as a forward pocket changing rover. But now I prefer to have Howe, Green, McDonald & Jurrah as half forwards.

and oranges at quarter time?

It's very subjective because old-time positional play has long since disappeared. There's probably 6 "mids" in the starting 18 (plus 1 ruckman, 6 backs and 5 forwards) and 3 on the bench (including the sub) along with the 2nd ruckman, that makes 9 in the 22 - with injuries a capable dozen on the list is probably about right.

Lutz struggled to name a dozen in the best teams.

[monoccular 17,569]

I think we (probably) all agree that what we desperately need is somehow, with someone's guidance and / or inspiration, for our group of individual players, many of whom are very talented, to meld into a MIDFIELD TEAM (and indeed a whole team).

Neeld was at least a part of that being successfully developed at Collingwood, Craig has a history of getting the very best out of a (different type) group of athletes, whilst Missen has elite performance credentials, both physical and mental.

I think we have the ingredients for success: ultimately is up to the individuals as to whether they real want success AS A TEAM.

BRING IT ON.

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

We DESPERATELY need some more decent mids.

we were given every chance by the AFL to have built a superstar midfield, look how it turned out for us:

2003 pick 3 Sylvia

2003 pick 5 McLean

2007 pick 4 Morton

2009 pick 1 Scully

2009 pick 2 Trengove

ouch

[Guest oldman emubitter]

i guess if you want a clue look at geelong, collingwood and hawthorn.

[dee-luded 2,959]

Yep , in an ideal world we'd have a gun midfield with Sylvia in the forward line . But , right now , we're a fair way short of that gun midfield .

I am confident however , that Mark Neeld will improve our midfield immeasurably .

I'm hoping to see a much fiercer attack on the ball , more 1%ers ( blocking , shepherding etc ) , better cohesion and a far more direct style .

Collingwood does hug the boundary a lot but out of the middle they are often very direct . A quick kick to CHF is what I see a fair bit from the Pies ( from centre clearances ) In fact , a number of the good sides have this practice .

Cheers

.

Yep. v/.

[dee-luded 2,959]

and oranges at quarter time?

It's very subjective because old-time positional play has long since disappeared. There's probably 6 "mids" in the starting 18 (plus 1 ruckman, 6 backs and 5 forwards) and 3 on the bench (including the sub) along with the 2nd ruckman, that makes 9 in the 22 - with injuries a capable dozen on the list is probably about right.

Lutz struggled to name a dozen in the best teams.

Yep. Well if Sylvia was available Rnd 1 & I'd have Grimes in the mids with Trenners & Moloney as well, then I'd rather Sylvia in the pocket over Davey. With Howe & Jurrah on the flanks.

Show me yours & I'll show you mine.

[Lutz 76]

we were given every chance by the AFL to have built a superstar midfield, look how it turned out for us:

2003 pick 3 Sylvia

2003 pick 5 McLean

2007 pick 4 Morton

2009 pick 1 Scully

2009 pick 2 Trengove

ouch

A few problems with this post.

The AFL didn't do anything for us -- we "earned" those pick with our win-loss records.

Each of the first 3 picks might look bad, but they were the best options for mids at the stage of those drafts.

The only player of note in 2003 after those named, would be David Mundy, picked around 30-40 and after Freo had already had 2 picks themselves.

Rioli, Dangerfield & Grimes came after Morton, but not much else, and they aren't really mods (yet, at least).

And if you could have foreseen Scully leaving back on draft day, then I'd appreciate next week's tattslotto numbers while you're at it.

[The Chazz 4,077]

...

Let's cut to the quick - Jones, Moloney, Bail, Bate, Sylvia and a host of others are the midfield support acts in our quest to win a flag. And the support acts are crucial. But it's stars that win you flags. It's the midfield guns that take you to the next level and allow you to compete when the games are at their fiercest. The intensity in finals is 3 notches higher than just about any home and away game. We need Trengove, Gysberts, Viney, or a 'Swan' that comes from the woodwork to become our 'gun' mids. They might come from this year's super draft. Who knows, it might be Grimes.

...

I'm going to challenge you on this BH, and others that have said similar.

I have absolutely no doubt that Moloney can become a star midfielder. There were a number of games last season (and throughout his career) where he literally dominated. This is supported by the amount of BOGs he got in the Brownlow. Now, before people talk about him only doing it when we are winning, I accept that, but I will throw this one back at you. In 2011, he was our only decent midfielder. Sure Trengove, McKenzie, Jones etc played some good cameos, but Moloney is our number 1. Again, I agree taht he can't shake a tag, but I'll throw this one out there - this is when he needs the support from his teammates to block the tagger or the simple 1% thing of laying a sheppard.

You talk about us "finding" our Swan, well, Moloney has all the tricks to be such player. If he can have a couple of guys around him that can play their role, I think you will find Moloney go to another level. The fact that he has dropped a couple of kgs will also help.

I often wonder what Judd would be like playing for us. Even he would struggle at times if he didn't have his teammates helping out off the ball.

[Hannibal 5,814]

I'm going to challenge you on this BH, and others that have said similar.

I have absolutely no doubt that Moloney can become a star midfielder. There were a number of games last season (and throughout his career) where he literally dominated. This is supported by the amount of BOGs he got in the Brownlow. Now, before people talk about him only doing it when we are winning, I accept that, but I will throw this one back at you. In 2011, he was our only decent midfielder. Sure Trengove, McKenzie, Jones etc played some good cameos, but Moloney is our number 1. Again, I agree taht he can't shake a tag, but I'll throw this one out there - this is when he needs the support from his teammates to block the tagger or the simple 1% thing of laying a sheppard.

You talk about us "finding" our Swan, well, Moloney has all the tricks to be such player. If he can have a couple of guys around him that can play their role, I think you will find Moloney go to another level. The fact that he has dropped a couple of kgs will also help.

I often wonder what Judd would be like playing for us. Even he would struggle at times if he didn't have his teammates helping out off the ball.

Footy is an opinion business and clearly we disagree when it comes to Moloney. I don't see any of the tricks you speak of. There's no doubt that Moloney can be more damaging in a better side, that's common sense, but I also think he'd struggle to hold his position in a better side due to the limitations mentioned. You say that he can be a "star" midfielder ? He could be our Dane Swan. Wow. We really must watch football differently.

I look at Jordan Gysberts and I see a potential star. In his limited games I see a really smart footballer, one that makes great decisions quickly, one that has clean hands in close, one who instinctively knows where to run, one that puts the ball to a teammates advantage, one that rarely gets tackled, a player with balance, put simply, I see all of the attributes of a star and all of the attributes missing with Moloney.

And I disagree with you on Judd. He'd be a star at Melbourne despite the lack of support. Judd wins his own footy and improves those around him. Did you not go to the MCG last year and see him single handedly destroy us ? Someone described him as a white pointer playing with a school of fish. They were right.

[H_T 3,049]

....

Concur.

i guess if you want a clue look at geelong, collingwood and hawthorn.

Yes. And as BH stated in his post of those mids of each of those clubs are indeed the difference. Contested ball, nous, efficient execution in traffic. That's what we need.

rjay, it may have a little to do with set-up. But it's the quality mids and their support cast that the above clubs ^ set themselves apart from the also-rans in the main. We need quality developed mids with poise, nous, strength, class. The current experienced mids we have, simply don't have all of these qualities. And as BH alluded to, when they're the support cast to our 'unearthed stars' (whoever they may be), we should be in a much better position as a team.

[old55 23,687]

we were given every chance by the AFL to have built a superstar midfield, look how it turned out for us:

...

ouch

It's not all over yet, none of those is a bust ...

2003 pick 3 Sylvia: he has been improving since he got his body right and could still realise his potential

2003 pick 5 McLean: that's Gysberts now

2007 pick 4 Morton: It's easy to forget he just turned 21 this year

2009 pick 1 Scully: that's 2 unsused compo picks

2009 pick 2 Trengove: Co-captain at 20.

[The Chazz 4,077]

Footy is an opinion business and clearly we disagree when it comes to Moloney. I don't see any of the tricks you speak of. There's no doubt that Moloney can be more damaging in a better side, that's common sense, but I also think he'd struggle to hold his position in a better side due to the limitations mentioned. You say that he can be a "star" midfielder ? He could be our Dane Swan. Wow. We really must watch football differently.

I look at Jordan Gysberts and I see a potential star. In his limited games I see a really smart footballer, one that makes great decisions quickly, one that has clean hands in close, one who instinctively knows where to run, one that puts the ball to a teammates advantage, one that rarely gets tackled, a player with balance, put simply, I see all of the attributes of a star and all of the attributes missing with Moloney.

And I disagree with you on Judd. He'd be a star at Melbourne despite the lack of support. Judd wins his own footy and improves those around him. Did you not go to the MCG last year and see him single handedly destroy us ? Someone described him as a white pointer playing with a school of fish. They were right.

We may watch football differently BH, especially if you see Gysberts as a potential star. Gysberts, through my eyes, has played well, and shown some of those qualities you mentioned. The thing that I haven't seen in Gysberts is his ability to be a match winner. I've seen Trengove show the qualities that I have no doubt will see him win a match for us, not so much the Gys.

Your reference to Judd playing us doesn't prove much. We don't have anyone to go with him, so he will always look the white pointer-type. It's the games when he plays Geelong (Ling), or St Kilda (Jones), ie. up agaisnt the best taggers in the league. In his early days at Carlton, he didn't have that off-ball support and even for one of the greats, he struggled a bit. Now though, the players around him have stepped up and supported him around the stoppages, and that's why they are a top 4 side. That's the opinion of a number of Carlton supporters I know, and they attend nearly all Carlton games. But, with Judd, he's a superstar, and you're right, he'd still be that way in red and blue.

With Moloney, in 2011 there were a number of games where he just demanded the ball and tore the opposition a new one, he was untouchable. I'm not going to say he will be udd-like, but I honestly think he can be Swan-like. You seem to think he has nearly reached his ceiling, I think he has a fair bit to go, but it will require other players around him to step up and play roles. Time will tell, you may be right, I may be right, but even if/when we improve and we are that better side, I can't see Moloney not being in our top 3 midfielders (providing it's within the next 5 years!).