Racism

[timD 994]

I have watched the stuff in the 'manson' thread with some interest. I thought that it might be interesting to thrash out ideas raised in the Manson thread here - not polluting a footy thread any further but not stifling discussion either.

When is it racist to consider 'racial' issues? One possible take on Barry Dawson's post was that aboriginal players are a greater risk of not having their potential drawn out at AFL level than other (white) players. It is an idea that is based entirely on 'race' as a deciding factor. While I have been raised in a anti-racism context my whole life, I do wonder about this issue. I wonder about the different between 'race' and 'culture'? Are we confusing the names of factors - aren't they cultural rather than racial (i.e., genetic)?

Aboringial people have been treated in an abominable fashion for significant lengths of Australia's history. Disadvantage is endemic within Aboriginal populations. Is it 'racist' to acknowledge the realities of this disadvantage and the effect that it can have - the added burden it creates, the hurdles it creates - when recruiting players? Isn't it fair to say that life will be harder in melbourne for Jurrah than Trengove (for example) because of factors uniquely associated with aboriginality? Young Jack knows english as a first language, for example. The things Jurrah overcomes to just get this far are bloody extraordinary. Shouldn't we acknowledge the 'risk' in recruiting terms - and the welfare demands that success will require? And is this race or culture? I'd argue that it is cultural - that there is nothing 'genetic' about risk and that culture creates disadvantage which plays out in the lives of individuals.

I think that many 'risk' factors exist at the level of the individual, their family, history and culture. Doesn't this apply to aboriginal players too? And are we getting hung up on the name of the type of risk that exists and arguing about issues that miss the point?

[Biffen 12,555]

I've always thought that when you take people as a group , rather than as individuals ,you begin to generalize .

When dealing with human beings it is important to be specific .

I read the thread and wrote in favour of Manson being tried out but then came replies about inherent "risks"

in recruiting players "like wonna and Jurrah" .i.e real Australians .

What is sad is that BD got support for his woeful logic by other Establishment types who know all about recruiting Aboriginals " from experience".

This kid is a proposition that is obviously a long term project as he doesn't train to the same extent as AFL hopefuls yet .

That to me means he can only get better .

I saw a picture of him after the draft camp and the interview suggested he doesn't really know the process or have any support network to get him there .

Demons like Barry should step out of the Melbourne Club once in a while and see real people from all over the world doing real things.

His posts were abysmal ,lazy and damaging .Not slightly funny or true .

Why does the club waste time building bridges so Barry can knock em down ?

[Whispering_Jack 28,118]

TimD,

Who said it was racist to consider 'racial' issues?

[timD 994]

General question, Jack. Aimed at no-one. No hidden meaning. The post is meant to invite discussion about what can be complex and rightly emotive issues.

Or is your question rhetorical?

[Dee Fan 3,247]

I've always thought that when you take people as a group , rather than as individuals ,you begin to generalize . When dealing with human beings it is important to be specific . I read the thread and wrote in favour of Manson being tried out but then came replies about inherent "risks" in recruiting players "like wonna and Jurrah" .i.e real Australians . What is sad is that BD got support for his woeful logic by other Establishment types who know all about recruiting Aboriginals " from experience". This kid is a proposition that is obviously a long term project as he doesn't train to the same extent as AFL hopefuls yet . That to me means he can only get better . I saw a picture of him after the draft camp and the interview suggested he doesn't really know the process or have any support network to get him there . Demons like Barry should step out of the Melbourne Club once in a while and see real people from all over the world doing real things. His posts were abysmal ,lazy and damaging .Not slightly funny or true . Why does the club waste time building bridges so Barry can knock em down ?

I was born in Australia, my father was born in Australia, my kids were born in Australia, my Grand Kids were born in Australia; does that qualify me or my offspring as real Australians?

Who are these real people you talk about? If anyone disagrees with you does that mean they aren't real people?

I agree with timD, it has nothing to do with race it is purely whether Manson can adjust to the way of life; it's also whether the Club can afford to spend the money and resources needed to find out. I wouldn't care if we had 18 indigenous players out on the ground as long as they can play well enough to win a flag.

[Whispering_Jack 28,118]

General question, Jack. Aimed at no-one. No hidden meaning. The post is meant to invite discussion about what can be complex and rightly emotive issues.

Or is your question rhetorical?

I have a problem with that question because it doesn't touch on the nature of racism which is the subject of this thread. Of course, it's not racism to discuss racial issues and of course we need to have a debate on racism and to understand its nature when someone singles out the traits of a particular racial group in the context of discussing why that group should be discriminated against.

Here's a definition of racism:-

Racism is the belief that inherent different traits in human racial groups justify discrimination. In the modern English language, the term "racism" is used predominantly as a pejorative epithet. It is applied especially to the practice or advocacy of racial discrimination of a pernicious nature (i.e. which harms particular groups of people), and which is often justified by recourse to racial stereotyping or pseudo-science.

The experts say that the best way to overcome racism is through education. Because of the nature of racism its important to discuss the consequences of racist behaviour which can range from none at all, to emotional hurt and pain in some and going all the way to the extremes of murder, genocide and ethnic cleansing. When those extremes are pointed out to some people, they often get on the defensive and claim to be offended for being associated with the mass murderers involved in those practices. But that's not what they're being accused of - rather they're being told that that is a possible consequence of allowing racist conduct to go unchallenged in society.

On the other thread, my comments were misconstrued and I was told that I was being extreme for bringing up various instances of genocide and ethnic cleansing. If those things were part of science fiction I would agree but when, during my lifetime and in Europe of all places, 8,000 Muslims could have been butchered under the noses of troops from supposedly civilised countries I have to take offense at being misrepresented. Unfortunately, there is far too much of this behaviour across the world and far too little understanding of the problem and the issues.

Why bring up what happens at the extreme?

Because history tells us that racism starts at the basic levels and, if it's allowed to breed and gain acceptance in society it can and does become a dangerous force.

[Freddy Fuschia 666]

There's a fine line in how issues of race, religion or culture should be dealt with but you have to draw the line when people resort to stereotyping.

It's amazing how many incorrect perceptions people have of others when they've never met people of another race or religion and then suddenly get to meet them for the first time face to face.

[Axis of Bob 10,497]

This is racism. Or is it?

The Oxford Dictionary defines racism as "the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race , especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races".

The important parts of that definition are that races are believed to be different, and that these result in superiority/inferiority. I also believe that we confuse 'race', as a race is group of shared genetic background (not, say, muslims or christians); as the Oxford Dictionary would say "having distinct physical characteristics".

I, personally, believe that it is correct to consider cultural issues. For instance, Manson is a massive risk because he would struggle to fit into a modern football environment. He is not a risk because he is indigenous, but rather because he has very different values (as an individual) to what would help him succeed in the MFC environment.

What's the difference, you say? The difference is that we could have someone from a town similar to Manson's home town who has all of Manson's talent, but with a stronger dedication to succeeding in an AFL environment. Liam Jurrah is an example, because he has talent but also the drive to succeed. Manson and Jurrah are different people, which is why you treat them differently. If you were being racist then you would say that Manson = Jurrah because they are from similar racial background, therefore he can/can't make it.

Humans naturally stereotype races, sexes, occupations, religions etc because that's how we have evolved to survive. When people were tribal then it was important to be able to make quick judgements on people as to whether they were friend or foe. But with globalisation this way of thinking is no longer as useful as it once was. So natural instinct means that many people have to try to overcome this urge. Some people don't understand why they have to.

There is also a large generational divide in racial stereotyping. I am not old enough to know the White Australia policy or other types of explicit government sanctioned racism. I have grown up with friends from many racial backgrounds through primary school, secondary school, university and now the workforce. I often find it difficult to understand people's racism, but it is all too obvious to notice it is there when I turn on the TV and see an ad for A Current Affair or read the Herald Sun pandering to these insecurities. I can only imagine that living through the 'Two Wongs don't make a white' era and the stolen generation means that those people have grown up with different values.

My grandmother is a wonderful, kind, gentle woman. During the 2001 Grand Final she noted Dean Rioli and said "Geez, those aborigines are wonderful footballers. An aboriginal team would be exceptionally good ...... they just need a good white captain." Now she didn't mean this in a bad way at all, she was simply telling me how good indigenous footballers were. But it shows thinking of a different generation. My jaw nearly hit the ground when she said it, but that was the world she grew up in where she felt that white Australia had a paternal obligation to look after these 'backward' people.

I think that we are getting much better at combating racism in Australia. This, unfortunately, is not happening everywhere in the world and in many cases these places are not the first ones you'd expect. Australia is multicultural now and almost all children growing up now have a range of cultures present at school. It's not 'us vs them' because there are so many different cultures that there isn't really a 'them'.

The question of whether quotas/preferential selection for minorities (be they Aboriginal/Torres Strait Islanders, or simply rural or female) is racist .... I'm not sure. Is a wealthy indigenous child more worthy of a tertiary place than a wealthy white child? Is an indigenous child from a desert community more worthy? I understand why the preferential selection exists, and I support it because of the broader benefits that it brings, but technically there is discrimination based upon race exclusively rather than simply to even up an uneven playing field.

Racism is a really complex and interesting issue. There's little wonder that there are many confused and intimidated by it.

[old55 21,864]

I think there is an important distinction between race and culture.

[Whispering_Jack 28,118]

I think there is an important distinction between race and culture.

I think you got that right in your treatment of the situation in the Waylen Manson thread but often the distinction gets muddied and then it becomes a problem.

[timD 994]

Jack, I'm happy for the constructive criticism!

The way I think of it, 'race' and racism' talks to making comments specifying the presence or absense of traits on the basis of genes uniquely associated with race. "The indiginenous player is good (better) at footy b/c of his genes" is an example. Except it is positive racism if you will. I think that the "issues of risk" with indigenous players highlights an unpleasant confusion occuring between 'race' and 'culture' (thanks old) and, as Bob says, stereotypes get employed. I have no problem with stereotypes in the main because they simplify the world. When stereotypes lead to prejudice, then thing become no good in my book.

Jack, I understand better what you said and what you meant now. You should also know that raising ethnic cleansing is a potentially ineffective as a strategy b/c of the strong emotive quality it quite rightly evokes. That said, once people can employ stereotypes and prejudice, quite extraordinary evil can be produced - evil that should be named and denounced. Eugenics is another example of such (interesting side note: a number of authors have noted that the eugenics movement in psychiatry gave rise to the gas chambers in Germany before WWII). It's just that some people are not evil, they're clumsy or ill-informed (and others you get a free pass to saddle up and go to town on - you be the judge ).

A really interesting book on the ideas of race is "Guns, Germs and Steel' by Jarrod Diamond. I remember reaidng it and being really impressed (knowing my luck, some kid will post about 90K errors of fact or science!).

[Biffen 12,555]

I was born in Australia, my father was born in Australia, my kids were born in Australia, my Grand Kids were born in Australia; does that qualify me or my offspring as real Australians?

Who are these real people you talk about? If anyone disagrees with you does that mean they aren't real people?

I agree with timD, it has nothing to do with race it is purely whether Manson can adjust to the way of life; it's also whether the Club can afford to spend the money and resources needed to find out. I wouldn't care if we had 18 indigenous players out on the ground as long as they can play well enough to win a flag.

These real people I'm talking about can adjust to life on stage ,in the squared circle ,in politics ,in merchant banks ,Law firms and opera houses not to mention AFL .Just like your ancestors adapted to life on Aboriginal land .

Edited December 12, 2011 by Biffen

[Axis of Bob 10,497]

From the early 90s.

[dee-luded 2,958]

Racism, what racism???

"What is segregation

I don´t know what seggeration is

What is bigotry

I don´t know what biggery is

What does hatred mean

I don´t know what that is"..