The Players

[Dee Fan 3,247]

"Warnock, Bartram and McDonald are 3 players who probably could expect to get a game if their form was good enough, but if Schwab has told the football department not to play them for whatever reason they have every right to be [censored]. If it's to save money then they have even more right, this is, after all, their job."

Explosive!

Is this a hypothetical? If not please substantiate.

There are rumours that part of the problem is incentive payments, payments that are given based on the number of games played each year over the base salary. Schwab said recently that we are technically under the 92.5% minimum salary cap requirement which means we are not paying all our incentive payments and that's because players on them aren't getting played. When you hear a player is offered $450k per year that is made up of different components, base salary, payment per game played, bonus for B&F finish etc.

As I said they are rumours but so is most of the [censored] we have heard lately.

[praha 11,236]

I believe it.

I think the concern goes to how the club is dealing with player management on on-field progression, alongside progression of the club brand.

From what I understand -- I don't have sources -- the club has been working overtime to expand its brand and get the club out there in the public eye. What this has led to is an even bigger hole when it comes to player development and management, a hole that has been present for 50 years. Creating the brand has been especially hard as the club has been anything but the pinnacle of success over the years.

The whole situation finally lost balance last week, and the players lost faith in the club. A brand can be built on its own around a successful club, but the brand had to come first in this case.

But that's obviously led to a revolt.

I've also heard that a certain player broke down when speaking to Bailey, questioning the direction of the club and where it went so wrong.

I think the club had to make a decision:

• Do we side with the coach and stop the progression of the brand
  
• Or stick with the brand and go in a new direction on-field?
  

That ultimately led to Bailey's sacking and Schwab's reappointment.

I think that's all very clear tbh.

I think the club has failed at a fundamental level, and disastrously at that. A real failure of communication, transparency and commitment.

Edited August 2, 2011 by Cudi_420

[H_T 3,043]

I don't know if it was that explicit, but I can see how a decree similar to that would engender resentment.

But there has to be a balance between playing those players who will be around in the future and making sure you reward good form in the reserves of the older players.

Agree with this. ie. Strauss (future), Dunn, Bate. Definitely a balance.

If Schwabby is saving bikkies, I'll be interested to see our financial position this year compared to last.

[praha 11,236]

Agree with this. ie. Strauss (future), Dunn, Bate. Definitely a balance.

If Schwabby is saving bikkies, I'll be interested to see our financial position this year compared to last.

I think Schwab is working in the best interest of the club as a whole, as a business, and this seems to have compromised the team's ability to progress on-field.

If this issue shows us anything, it's that sometimes the business side of a club needs to take priority. That's clearly what's happened here, and I'm conflicted if I'm in favour.

But I trust Stynes and Lyon, and they both believe it was the best thing moving forward.

I believe they think it was the best decision for the survival of the club. Schwab really has done wonders with the brand.

[Dockett 32 1,239]

Hmmm, ok & tks.

Seems I'm a slow learner, but the fog is now lifting a little.

You have now created a few issues for me to try and get my head around.

Think I might have been better off not trying to understand.

[H_T 3,043]

I think the concern goes to how the club is dealing with player management on on-field progression, alongside progression of the club brand.

From what I understand -- I don't have sources -- the club has been working overtime to expand its brand and get the club out there in the public eye. What this has led to is an even bigger hole when it comes to player development and management, a hole that has been present for 50 years. Creating the brand has been especially hard as the club has been anything but the pinnacle of success over the years.

The whole situation finally lost balance last week, and the players lost faith in the club. A brand can be built on its own around a successful club, but the brand had to come first in this case.

But that's obviously led to a revolt.

Sorry, but I can't swallow this. Working overtime on the brand has led to a failure to comply with the right level of player development ?

I noticed you've stated you don't have sources, but can you elaborate more on your understanding of the above ?

[rpfc 28,270]

I think that's all very clear tbh.

I don't know if it is all that clear...

I think the club has failed at a fundamental level, and disastrously at that. A real failure of communication, transparency and commitment.

This is clear.

[Skipper3 7]

There is plenty to be critical of about our player group, but posters here are living with the fairies.

First thing to remembers is that they are almost all kids. Spend some time with them - you will see that most footballers are upstanding people, but not exactly worldly. (Obviously a generalisation)

Firstly, Cale Morton taking a photo of a pre-game prank is totally unacceptable? Get a life!

Secondly, senior players airing grievances is not necessarily senior players meddling in politics. It might be senior players having serious concerns and misgivings from their perspective (and it's only one perspective, but an important one!), and feeling obliged and passionate enough about the club that they feel they ought to air their grievances to nip them in the bud. I will put a slab on that being the motive - not to get X sacked or Y re-deployed.

When Junior went to the Board and gave a blunt assessment of problems in the FD, that was leadership. When other players do it, they get criticised for being soft.

If I were on the Board, and my senior leaders held honest beliefs about the club and its direction, I would rather be told. It doesn't mean I will agree or do what they want, but it does mean future decisions made would be better informed.

Alot of what you say i agree with - but, why the hell did the players put in that performance last sat if they olny just informed the club? To me it smacked of their minds been off field & not on field when they arrived at the ground.

[Lost Highway 31]

You say pranks dont mortify you etc, then why make it into a big deal??

Would you rather have the players strung up and stressed pre game??? Cale is having some fun, Wattsy most likely found it annoying but maybe he has done similar in the past and can appreciate that a mate would go to that much effort lol??? i know some of the most annoying pranks are thebest becasue it requires effort from them and youto fix it etc

All he did was turn some things upside down......send him to jail, the VFL, Sack him,

He is an AFL football player and should be drinking powerade and listening to relaxing music at 7pm in his PJ's in the drak on his own after only eating carbo loaded food and brushing his teath

The clumsy, childish irony doesn't hide the fool behind it. The original point made by billy2803 is spot-on.

The real problem may well be that too many of the players have the same frivolous attitude as the poster, and the MFC has let it go.

And the real irony, of course, the dramatic irony, is that neither the club nor Jordie_tackles can see that.

This 'boys will be boys' stuff hints at the important difference between having a good time and having a history. Players tweeting themselves silly about every silly thing, going out on the town after a drubbing, and so on - all harmless young men's hijinx, eh - do not a football team make; but a laughing stock, yes.

[old55 23,418]

This can be the thread we have a look at the grievances - keeping in mind they might be inferred BS by Caro.

Over the past year those grievances have included:

■The manner in which several senior players, notably former captain James McDonald, were unloaded last season.

■Ongoing uncertainty among the senior line-up that they too will fall victim to the Schwab-Connolly ''premiership model'' of list management.

Discuss.

These are the two key points - transition mis-managed by the club (even though it was for the right reasons), remaining senior players worried about their superannuation years.

[Blistering 538]

The players have a list of grievances that are so serious they were mentally spent after airing them to Stynes and McLardy last week and this may be the reason they were so comprehensively shat on by Geelong. I'm sorry but what the hell are the players doing getting involved in Club Politics, I thought they got handsomely rewarded for playing football even if some of it this year and the last couple is barely above VFL level.

For a group of guys that think so highly of the coach they sure as hell didn't play like it they played like a bunch of spoilt children who couldn't get their way; if anyone is to blame for Bailey's departure it's them and them alone. I've thought for years that we've got the softest group of players in the comp and they have just proven it beyond any doubt.

HOW THE DEMONS KILLED COACH THEY LOVED BUT SAVED CEO

The overwhelming majority of players and coaches reportedly favoured Bailey as senior coach. By the time they met Stynes last week, several players had reached boiling point. By Friday, when the team travelled with the coaching staff to Geelong, the coaches and the senior players believed that Schwab was about to be sacked.

By Saturday, mentally shattered from the week's off-field distractions, the senior players barely fired a shot. Green had one touch in the first half.

Caro at her self-serving best.

What a joke!

[old dee 23,782]

I am over the senior playing group who have given us and their team mates very little this season

I am over Adminstrators that cannot stick to their jobs

I am over splits in the club

i am over get 10 goal beltings

I am over watching games that are over before quarter time.

I am over TS going or not to GWS

I am over playing young guys for the sake of giving them a game at the expense of having a serious dip at winning.

I just want the team to play to a plan they can implement and all of them turning up with winning in their minds.

If they cannot do that then p--s off and we will get someone who will.

End of the story for me.

[The Chazz 4,077]

The clumsy, childish irony doesn't hide the fool behind it. The original point made by billy2803 is spot-on.

The real problem may well be that too many of the players have the same frivolous attitude as the poster, and the MFC has let it go.

And the real irony, of course, the dramatic irony, is that neither the club nor Jordie_tackles can see that.

This 'boys will be boys' stuff hints at the important difference between having a good time and having a history. Players tweeting themselves silly about every silly thing, going out on the town after a drubbing, and so on - all harmless young men's hijinx, eh - do not a football team make; but a laughing stock, yes.

Thanks Lost. I was getting very lonely in the minority group for a while there!

I know some strict rules that at my (local) football team that we weer made to follow and the coach at the time was an ex-AFL player, and I can assure you, what Morton did would not have been accepted even in the local league. While it frustrated some of the players that they were forced to leave a very strict lifestyle, it helped them make the Grand Final. The team is now coached by someone of a non-AFL level background, and they are on the bottom!

It's about attitude and the culture, which as you hinted, that's what makes a football team.

[beelzebub 23,313]

I think you will be one of only a few. If you have issues with this then you will mortified by the amount of pranks in a footy club.It was a joke relax and also Cale was the best player for Casey.

Maybe Im a party pooper too. This is after all a work environment. This isnt , or rather shouldnt be kiddie time.. Id be bloody [censored] off if someone did something of that scale.. Its not harmelss..Its downright imbecilic. Does this go towards the lack of maturity that some also display out there on the ground. ??

Lets see him get BOG for the big boys !! wont hold my breath

[Mac7 309]

I think the players forget that playing football is their job.

Compare this to a normal job. The players direct manager = the coach. The football club board = the senior management.

If I have a problem with my Direct Manger I do not complain to Senior Management. I go through the appropriate channels.

If I have problems with Senior Management I suck it up and complain to my wife. I do not request they be sacked.

If my Direct Manager has a problem with Senior Management it is none of my dam business, get back to work!!!

Maybe the players should just concentrate on doing their own job correctly. If I was doing as poorly as they are at my work I would be lining up at Centrelink on Monday!!!

[Guest dieharderdee]

I think what has shown up here is how mentaly weak the playing group are. It has been shown week in and week out when the game becomes a arm wrestle we go to water. Is this a sign of a younger generation with a what ever attitude and inflated sense of self importance.

If you look back 20 years people used to stay in there jobs for 10, 15 years now with the younger generation they are jumping around and getting new jobs every 2 or 3 years there is no emotional investment.

I feel that its all become to hard again at the MFC and the players have gone to water. We are doomed.

[Jaded No More 68,867]

The players are 99.9% to blame for what has happened to our club this week. I do not give a crap who they don't like, whether they miss Junior or whether their Nan is sick. Enough with these excuses.

If Mckenzie can put his balls on the line in the face of a massive defeat then it absolutely stinks that our senior leadership team cannot.

In life and in work you encounter people you dislike and managers who don't always do the right thing, and sometimes it is a real issue that needs resolving (as the case may be here). But only petulant unprofessional halfwits use these sorts of issues as an excuse to perform badly and embarrass their organization so much that it leads to people losing their jobs and risking their failing health.

It just blows my mind that in all this mess the players seems to have gotten off most lightly. It's because of this soft attitude towards our playing list that we find ourselves with the record of both the first and second heaviest defeats in AFL history.

[Guest hangon007]

The players are 99.9% to blame for what has happened to our club this week. I do not give a crap who they don't like, whether they miss Junior or whether their Nan is sick. Enough with these excuses.

If Mckenzie can put his balls on the line in the face of a massive defeat then it absolutely stinks that our senior leadership team cannot.

In life and in work you encounter people you dislike and managers who don't always do the right thing, and sometimes it is a real issue that needs resolving (as the case may be here). But only petulant unprofessional halfwits use these sorts of issues as an excuse to perform badly and embarrass their organization so much that it leads to people losing their jobs and risking their failing health.

It just blows my mind that in all this mess the players seems to have gotten off most lightly. It's because of this soft attitude towards our playing list that we find ourselves with the record of both the first and second heaviest defeats in AFL history.

With all due respect we are ALL to blame. Lets deal with ... after that lets all move on & make the finals.

He without sin can cast the first stone ... No stones would be cast.

Edited August 2, 2011 by hangon007

[Jaded No More 68,867]

With all due respect we are ALL to blame. Lets deal with ... after that lets all move on & make the finals.

Hey, I do my bit for this club every single year.

I take no blame for this, and as I sat there and watched the game, disgusted, it was the players who let this club down and threw it into turmoil. It wasn't how much Schwab is doing, it wasn't how little Connolly is doing, and it wasn't matchday tactics by Bailey.

A club does not lose by 31 goals because of administrative flaws, it loses by 31 goals because the players out on the field have no pride and don't give a sh!t!

[Dee Fan 3,247]

Hey, I do my bit for this club every single year.

I take no blame for this, and as I sat there and watched the game, disgusted, it was the players who let this club down and threw it into turmoil. It wasn't how much Schwab is doing, it wasn't how little Connolly is doing, and it wasn't matchday tactics by Bailey.

A club does not lose by 31 goals because of administrative flaws, it loses by 31 goals because the players out on the field have no pride and don't give a sh!t!

I have this bloke on ignore he's just too hard to read.

Wonder what ever happened to Artie Bucco the club apologist, he seems to have disappeared wish he'd take hangon with him.

[H_T 3,043]

Hey, I do my bit for this club every single year.

I take no blame for this, and as I sat there and watched the game, disgusted, it was the players who let this club down and threw it into turmoil. It wasn't how much Schwab is doing, it wasn't how little Connolly is doing, and it wasn't matchday tactics by Bailey.

A club does not lose by 31 goals because of administrative flaws, it loses by 31 goals because the players out on the field have no pride and don't give a sh!t!

What's your opinion of Bailey starting Jurrah on the wing with Bartel as his opponent ?

Where is Jurrah's strength ?

Why is it in your opinion 99.9% the players fault ?

Or is this move of Jurrah on the wing for the start of play by Bailey account for the 0.1% at fault ?

The decision to sack Bailey was not entirely based on one game. We've had very bad losses this year. The decision has been a culmination of results, and in any language a 186 point demolition and "devastation of a club" is simply unacceptable in footy. No matter how you cut it. 112 odd points down at the main break is unheard of. The players take the field, but it's up to the coach to instill into the players the right attitude through preparation and motivation. Proactive, not reactive play. To show fight, make statements, etc. We had squat !

When we've been up and won well we've seemingly been under the media spotlight prior to. Because of the previous weeks p!ss poor form. Motivation is an aspect of footy that is important; just as much as game plan, positions, tactics. The media and backlash from supporters may have contributed to quite a few wins this year. And it shouldn't come to that.

IMO it shows the lack of leadership and drive from within the players and the lack of strong leadership off the field to impart knowledge and urgency in the players themselves; despite the age of the list.

The likes of Green, Rivers, Moloney, Davey, etc (LG) have been bit players for a while, once you take away experience and pillars of strength and strong leadership ie. Neitz, McDonald, others invariably get exposed when the heat is on.

Unfortunately, there is no quick fix. Our current 'leaders' need to consitently stand up to fill this void until the youth gen leaders step up and takeover.

[Guest hangon007]

Hey, I do my bit for this club every single year.

I take no blame for this, and as I sat there and watched the game, disgusted, it was the players who let this club down and threw it into turmoil. It wasn't how much Schwab is doing, it wasn't how little Connolly is doing, and it wasn't matchday tactics by Bailey.

A club does not lose by 31 goals because of administrative flaws, it loses by 31 goals because the players out on the field have no pride and don't give a sh!t!

Again with all due respect. I'm sure we all need to do our bit. But this is not a blame game on the CEO, The head of footy, the board, the players & the ex-coach ... nope we are all in this together. Last Saturday was not a deliberate act, it was us against a monster that showed no mercy. This is not an excuse you cant underplay their (Geelongs) part in it.

But hey they might have done us the biggest favour in history ... the problems are out there.

However, we as supporters are right not to accept it, but we must ask for the "real" reason. All this lack of "passion" stuff is emotional rubbish. Why can they show "passion" against Adelaide but not Geelong. Why can they show "passion" against Port but not against Collingwood. Why can the show "passion" against Richmond but not against Carlton. The supporters are over playing the "passion" card.

Dont treat the symptoms treat the cause. We must get to the bottom of the reason for our roller-coaster ride against top to bottom sides.

Im positive if we are all man enough to face one another show some respect talk honestly put our cards on the table, we can & will solve this.

Edited August 2, 2011 by hangon007

[Trisul 664]

The decision to sack Bailey was not entirely based on one game.

I don't believe you. Tell me why I should believe you.

What's your opinion of Bailey starting Jurrah on the wing with Bartel as his opponent ?

If, after 33 games of AFL you can't, even slightly, bend your game to the coaches will what good are you in the modern game? A one trick pony for the opposition to feast upon?

Where is Jurrah's strength ?

Where are Jurrah's weaknesses?

Why is it in your opinion 99.9% the players fault ?

You DO NOT suffer a 31 goal defeat with the players giving 100%. Even 50%.

Or is this move of Jurrah on the wing for the start of play by Bailey account for the 0.1% at fault ?

Please. If the players can't/won't step up for the good of the team then sack or sanction them now. Didn't Jurrah play on a wing in his first game?

We've had very bad losses this year. The decision has been a culmination of results, and in any language a 186 point demolition and "devastation of a club" is simply unacceptable in footy. No matter how you cut it. 112 odd points down at the main break is unheard of. The players take the field, but it's up to the coach to instill into the players the right attitude through preparation and motivation. Proactive, not reactive play. To show fight, make statements, etc. We had squat !

But the players LOOOOOOOUVE the coach! ... ... ... or something.

When we've been up and won well we've seemingly been under the media spotlight prior to. Because of the previous weeks p!ss poor form. Motivation is an aspect of footy that is important; just as much as game plan, positions, tactics. The media and backlash from supporters may have contributed to quite a few wins this year. And it shouldn't come to that. IMO it shows the lack of leadership and drive from within the players and the lack of strong leadership off the field to impart knowledge and urgency in the players themselves; despite the age of the list. The likes of Green, Rivers, Moloney, Davey, etc (LG) have been bit players for a while, once you take away experience and pillars of strength and strong leadership ie. Neitz, McDonald, others invariably get exposed when the heat is on.

The only time we've seen anything much from the 24+ brigade is the week after they've been pantsed. I frankly won't give a [censored] if we win this week. I'll be there, looking into the eyes of our 'leaders', and silently asking them what the hell it is they stand for.

Unfortunately, there is no quick fix. Our current 'leaders' need to consitently stand up to fill this void until the youth gen leaders step up and takeover.

Stop it. It's not going to happen. This crap has set the clubs goals back years already. I am sick of expecting effort from this mob.

[H_T 3,043]

I don't believe you. Tell me why I should believe you.

As I stated in my post: "We've had very bad losses this year. The decision has been a culmination of results."

Clearly throughout the season there were concerns. Even prior to the season, there were concerns in our lack of preparation re: the press and gameplan. Our clear inability to cope against the top sides (Haw, Coll, Carl, Geelong), failure to stem flow/or close the floodgates. The huge differences between our poor and good. The negative plan/preparation moves such as starting Watts in defence against the Blues, leaving one short in the forward line and letting Laidler to do as he pleased in the first half.

If, after 33 games of AFL you can't, even slightly, bend your game to the coaches will what good are you in the modern game? A one trick pony for the opposition to feast upon?

Fair enough. But he looked right at home against the best in Bartel, didn't he ? There's experimenting, adapting to the modern game, and then there's a complete mismatch against the best in the middle of the ground, where it's white hot for contested possession. I wouldn't have had him on the wing on Bartel, this is the point I make.

Where are Jurrah's weaknesses?

In the middle against Geelong. Now you answer my question I asked Jaded. Where are his strengths ? Let's think about that for a minute.

You DO NOT suffer a 31 goal defeat with the players giving 100%. Even 50%.

I was referring to Jaded's previous 99.9% post fwiw.

The only time we've seen anything much from the 24+ brigade is the week after they've been pantsed. I frankly won't give a [censored] if we win this week. I'll be there, looking into the eyes of our 'leaders', and silently asking them what the hell it is they stand for.

Not unlike me.

[Trisul 664]

As I stated in my post: "We've had very bad losses this year. The decision has been a culmination of results"

We've had very bad losses over many, many years now. Why does this one take the cake?

Fair enough. But he looked right at home against the best in Bartel, didn't he ? There's experimenting, adapting to the modern game, and then there's a complete mismatch against the best in the middle of the ground, where it's white hot for contested possession. I wouldn't have had him on the wing on Bartel, this is the point I make.

Again, sorry, but IDGUF how 'comfortable' he looked. DO THE JOB YOU'RE ASKED - or die trying.

In the middle against Geelong. Now you answer my question I asked Jaded. Where are his strengths ? Let's think about that for a minute.

Leap. Inital dash. Solid mid range kick. And? What are Trengoves strengths? Where was he played? How much effort did he give?

I was referring to Jaded's previous 99.9% post fwiw.

I still don't get it. Shrug. Can't see thread while posting.

Not unlike me.

So why enquire beyond that 99.9% ? Even if the .1% was perfect, it cannot account for the 99.9%.