On 27/06/2012 at 23:38, Grimes Times said:

Note sure if that's right.

"Should Gold Coast bid, hypothetically, for Daniher, Essendon would then be asked if it wanted to match the bid with its next available pick. If the Bombers did that, the Suns would then be given the opportunity to bid for one of the other players. Those remaining would be offered to GWS, Melbourne and the rest of the clubs, in reverse ladder order."

GT/RP - thanks for that. Not sure what I was reading! So in theory, nothing has changed?!

Seems as clear as mud to me!

  On 28/06/2012 at 00:03, billy2803 said:

I may be in the minority, but I say f**k any secret deals with any club. If they (ie GC or GWS) want to go down that dummy bidding to force us to pay premium, we have 2 decisions - force them to use that pick on Viney and miss getting the "true" number 1 or 2 picks, or we are the ones being forced.

I think the comments coming from the MFC about there being ne certainty of us picking Viney with our first pick, shows to me that they want nothing to do with any secret deals with anyone. Planting the seed of doubt in the minds of the GCS and GWS team is as much as we can do, and as much as I want this football club to be involved in.

I ask the question, if you were the Gold Coast recruiters sitting there with the number 1 pick firmly in your hands at the end of the year, would you throw in a dummy bid for Viney, woth the risk of actually getting him. More to the point, with the bigger risk of missing out on Whitfield?

The MFC have had ample time to come up with ways to deter other teams picking Viney too early. We are in a position (on the ladder) where we only have a couple of teams to consider.

So you favour mind games and bluffing to a surreptitious deal?

They are two sides of the same coin.

We all ponder if GC or GWS will make a 'dummy' bid for Viney. What if it isn't a dummy bid? What if they actually rate the kid - and his enormous intangibles that make me want to masticate right here and now - over any other kid in the draft?

My desire for deal not only caters for the dummy bid issue, but also the legitimate interest issue.

And, I mentioned a few months ago that we would make these comments about Viney - not sure if we will take him at 3, make it known we don't believe he is worthy of top 2 pick etc - as it provides cover in the event that GC and GWS do not bid on Jack and we have agreed deals with them that will be completed a few days later. Every other club will whinge, the AFL will 'investigate' and Anderson will ok the deal on the evidence that the GC and GWS didn't feel he was in the top 2 picks.

Hmmm..let me crystal ball gaze for a moment... ahh...the mysts clear...Melbourne takes Jack Viney with pick 3.. All has been revealed !!

Jack viney is worth whatever we pay pick 3 or 23 we still get the 3rd best player with the scully compo.

Toumpas and viney to the MFC along with Boak(13) = A+ midfield Jamar,Jones,Viney,Boak,Toumpas,Trengrove

Cheer up guys.

I think the club is already planning for a deal in case it eventuates.

The recent reports that MFC are heavily interested in mini-draft picks had to come from somewhere.

All adding to the legitimacy of any deal later on.

Also what has been said recently about JV maybe not being taken.

It's all about building up evidence to twist public perception.

An AFL PR papertrail.

  On 28/06/2012 at 00:42, BIG JIM said:

Jack viney is worth whatever we pay pick 3 or 23 we still get the 3rd best player with the scully compo.

Toumpas and viney to the MFC along with Boak(13) = A+ midfield Jamar,Jones,Viney,Boak,Toumpas,Trengrove

Cheer up guys.

Imwith you....Everyone seems to want their cake and eat and eat and eat.Reality is we get a very good player. Aplayer we will know intimately bythe time he hits the paddock in red and blue. How often does a club get this ? Normally still a bit of a raffle. AAND we still get to pick up someone else ( or two )...ffs..its ALL good

48 pages

1183 posts

0 games

Lol

  On 28/06/2012 at 00:21, rpfc said:

So you favour mind games and bluffing to a surreptitious deal?

They are two sides of the same coin.

We all ponder if GC or GWS will make a 'dummy' bid for Viney. What if it isn't a dummy bid? What if they actually rate the kid - and his enormous intangibles that make me want to masticate right here and now - over any other kid in the draft?

My desire for deal not only caters for the dummy bid issue, but also the legitimate interest issue.

And, I mentioned a few months ago that we would make these comments about Viney - not sure if we will take him at 3, make it known we don't believe he is worthy of top 2 pick etc - as it provides cover in the event that GC and GWS do not bid on Jack and we have agreed deals with them that will be completed a few days later. Every other club will whinge, the AFL will 'investigate' and Anderson will ok the deal on the evidence that the GC and GWS didn't feel he was in the top 2 picks.

If you're happy to jump in to bed with the enemy, then that's fine. What do they say, keep your friends close and your enemies closer? I need to avoid these cliches like the plague...

If our recruitment guys rate Viney in the top half dozen in the draft, then we take him at 3 (assuming we are "forced" to). No secret deals. Taking the F/S factor out of it, where would the Club, and every other club for that matter, rate Viney? This is my point - we have had ample opportunity to ensure the greater football community don't rate him too highly, but at this stage, we've appeared happy to let him go through the process of letting everyone see what he's like. I have to admit, I couldn't understand why McLardy was giving Wojo a packet of pilchards wrapped up in a brown paper bag a couple of months ago, if it wasn't pilchards it was definitely something that smelt a bit fishy...!!!

I want our club to be hated. I want us to rort systems for the benefit of us. I want us to do it on our own - not through secret deals with other clubs who are after the same thing as us - a premiership. If we can't put enough doubt in the GC and GWS minds to ensure we get Viney with our 2nd round pick, I'll be very disappointed. I won't give up on the Club, but this is a perfect opportunity to have our cake and eat it too (sorry B59!). We want a premiership, we do whatever it takes to get one, but that DOES NOT involve working in partnership with 2 new teams who have been given the world.

  On 28/06/2012 at 01:02, billy2803 said:

We want a premiership, we do whatever it takes to get one, but that DOES NOT involve working in partnership with 2 new teams who have been given the world.

Do whatever it takes, or don't work in partnership with 2 new teams...

Swallow thou pride. One wants to have his cake and eat it too...

I will do anything for love (flag), but I won't do that (yes I will)

  On 28/06/2012 at 01:02, billy2803 said:

We want a premiership, we do whatever it takes to get one, but that DOES NOT involve working in partnership with 2 new teams who have been given the world.

So the Whatever It Takes ethos ends pretty bloody quickly...

I am trying to find a way, that stands up to Game Theory, of getting Viney at Pick 25 and allow us to effectively have another top 5 pick.

I think you are confusing some bitterness you have toward GWS/AFL with an uncompromising attitude toward doing what is best for the MFC.

Because that's what we are talking about here - not sticking it up anyone, but getting the best result for the MFC.

The difference between taking him could end up being whether or not we have pick 3 to trade for a 17 yr old

The difference between having a Wayne Carey or Andrew McLeod at our club .

Pretty big stakes

  On 28/06/2012 at 01:26, olisik said:

The difference between taking him could end up being whether or not we have pick 3 to trade for a 17 yr old

The difference between having a Wayne Carey or Andrew McLeod at our club .

Pretty big stakes

You rate the 17 year olds that highly? They could just as easily turn out to be a Gumbleton or a Scully. taking them at 17 only increases the speculative nature of the picks as they have less development behind them.

  On 28/06/2012 at 01:22, rpfc said:

I think you are confusing some bitterness you have toward GWS/AFL with an uncompromising attitude toward doing what is best for the MFC.

Because that's what we are talking about here - not sticking it up anyone, but getting the best result for the MFC.

Said poster's syndrome is commonly known as "cutting off your nose despite your face".

GC17 will nominate every father-son worth a dime now. Viney, Daniher, Bourke are all going first round. Stewart will probably slide to the scum's second round pick.

The big difference is that under the previous bidding arrangement he was a chance - albeit a slim one - to slide to our second round pick, as either GC17 or GWS had to nominate him individually as being picked up - now the team that finishes stone motherless can nominate those three mentioned in my opening para with one pick.

It's a completely radical rule change, making it a certainty Viney will be nominated.

In most people's opinions we're fortunate in that he's expected to be worth it.

  On 28/06/2012 at 01:33, RalphiusMaximus said:

You rate the 17 year olds that highly? They could just as easily turn out to be a Gumbleton or a Scully. taking them at 17 only increases the speculative nature of the picks as they have less development behind them.

Its what they are being touted as being.

Actually being 17rs old makes them more valuable then the standard picks 1 & 2 as it will give them an extra year in the system.

Imagine we got scully and trengove after they already had a year training with us when we picked them up. They would've been world ahead.

  On 28/06/2012 at 01:35, DemonAndrew said:

GC17 will nominate every father-son worth a dime now. Viney, Daniher, Bourke are all going first round. Stewart will probably slide to the scum's second round pick.

The big difference is that under the previous bidding arrangement he was a chance - albeit a slim one - to slide to our second round pick, as either GC17 or GWS had to nominate him individually as being picked up - now the team that finishes stone motherless can nominate those three mentioned in my opening para with one pick.

It's a completely radical rule change, making it a certainty Viney will be nominated.

In most people's opinions we're fortunate in that he's expected to be worth it.

you really think that they will risk losing Whitfield to pick up Bourke? To benefit every other team?

I think the onus on recruitment is to be slightly more responsible then that...

  On 28/06/2012 at 01:22, rpfc said:

So the Whatever It Takes ethos ends pretty bloody quickly...

I am trying to find a way, that stands up to Game Theory, of getting Viney at Pick 25 and allow us to effectively have another top 5 pick.

I think you are confusing some bitterness you have toward GWS/AFL with an uncompromising attitude toward doing what is best for the MFC.

Because that's what we are talking about here - not sticking it up anyone, but getting the best result for the MFC.

Yeah, probably goes against my point hey.

Compare these two;

* We ensure that Viney's development is "hidden" to ensure he is considered a "slider", or more to the point, others are consdiered to be ahead of him.

* We crawl to other Clubs with a secret deal saying "you kep your hands off Viney, and we will give you all of this to benefit you, just so we can get 1 player"

I know what I prefer, I would imagine Jimmy would want the same. You don't crawl to opposition teams. You do whatever it takes so that you don't have to.

Hope that makes more sense!

  On 28/06/2012 at 01:46, billy2803 said:

Yeah, probably goes against my point hey.

Compare these two;

* We ensure that Viney's development is "hidden" to ensure he is considered a "slider", or more to the point, others are consdiered to be ahead of him.

* We crawl to other Clubs with a secret deal saying "you kep your hands off Viney, and we will give you all of this to benefit you, just so we can get 1 player"

Let's leave Jimmy out of our drafting scenarios.

You obviously like the first avenue. However:

1. How the hell do we hide him? He is about to rip up a Vic Metro game tomorrow that will make us all masticate over him.

2. How do we make him less appealing? Not let him play the rest of the year? Yeah, that will make GWS and GC know that we don't have the hots for him...

3. What if they think he is as good as I think he is? What if it isn't bluster? What if they truly do think he is the best or second best player ou there?

And that leads me to the apparent "crawling" scenario:

I don't like the characterisation that we are on our knees kissing people masticators, we are grown ups trying to get what is best for the MFC - if that means involving ourselves in the 17 year old draft with these two teams then so be it.

And don't sell me short here - if we can push Viney into 25 we would effectively be netting a top 3 talent.

If we are thinking of luring Boak to MFC, we surely would not want to win more games than Port.

If Port finished 16th and gained 3rd pick it will be very interesting. They could be very interested in replacing a young midfielder.

There seems to be a lot of 'hope' that we finish 16th.

There is nothing more certain than our club picking up Jack Viney and if fit he will play round 1 next year. Esentially we are getting Jack Viney for nothing thanks to the AFL over rating Tom Scully, the Bulldogs will be cursing Ward is and always will be a better player than Tom they get one first round pick we get 2. We will add 3 first round picks to our list this year be it kids or established players, from most accounts Jack would be drafted between 2-10 anyway. If we pay a lttle overs and that is all it will be a little we are still in front Jack is in the club now, the club has managed him through a pre-season program, they are managing his games played this year. He is essentially like Sam Blease and Jack Watts in there first year they were drafted(hopefully except the broken leg).

The club doesn't bring a player into its training program for 12 months, spending time and resources on him not to draft him. Injuries permitting he will be a 250 AFL game player.

  On 28/06/2012 at 02:02, rpfc said:

Let's leave Jimmy out of our drafting scenarios.

You obviously like the first avenue. However:

1. How the hell do we hide him? He is about to rip up a Vic Metro game tomorrow that will make us all masticate over him.

2. How do we make him less appealing? Not let him play the rest of the year? Yeah, that will make GWS and GC know that we don't have the hots for him...

3. What if they think he is as good as I think he is? What if it isn't bluster? What if they truly do think he is the best or second best player ou there?

And that leads me to the apparent "crawling" scenario:

I don't like the characterisation that we are on our knees kissing people masticators, we are grown ups trying to get what is best for the MFC - if that means involving ourselves in the 17 year old draft with these two teams then so be it.

And don't sell me short here - if we can push Viney into 25 we would effectively be netting a top 3 talent.

You are offering GC and/or GWS something to stop them from bidding for Viney. They won't do that for free - for them to consider it it would have to be a deal that is in their favour, not ours. Anything we do should not advantage a team more than the MFC. If you say it won't, why the hell would they (opposition teams) agree to it? I can't see Sheedy/Grubby agreeing to "help" us out, with the end result being equal for both teams. You've been around long enough to know that Sheedy doesn't operate that way.

And I will bring Jimmy in to it if I want. I would imagine he'd be bitterly disappointed in the MFC having to do such a thing. If the MFC can come up with something that saw both Clubs finish equal in the deal, then I would consider it. I just think you're wasting your breath going to another Club, especially GWS, and getting them to agree to it. They would want to be ahead in the deal, it's an ego thing for them and realistically, if the deal was level for both teams, why would they give a sh!t about satisying us?

In regards to "hiding" Jack. It makes it bloody hard with so much media exposure these days. Firstly, when he plays for Casey, play him in the back pocket or forward pocket. Seeing him play in the midfield and racking up bulk possessions against some AFL listed players isn't helping to keep a lid on it. He would have to play in the U18 championships, and it's hard to see their coach "experimenting" with Jack by playing him out of position. That said, there's always the injury concern smoke screen. If he has to go to the draft combine, we have enough players on out list that can teach him how to look like he is putting in 100% when he is actually only travelling at 70%. Perhaps I'm just sabotaging bastard! Maybe I'll get a role on Revenge!

  On 28/06/2012 at 01:26, olisik said:

The difference between taking him could end up being whether or not we have pick 3 to trade for a 17 yr old

The difference between having a Wayne Carey or Andrew McLeod at our club .

Pretty big stakes

Want to buy a bridge?

Its rather a lot more simple than many are contriving . We simply are prepared to use 3. Most likely scenario is we have use 3. If we dont have to, beaudy !! Bargain

Otherwise it will go as supposed. No ones about to help us. Any "deal" is bound to be a bit dodgy and liable to backfire .

Viney IS worth 3. Hell we'll still have 4 12(?) and i think 23. Hardy a pittance !

  On 28/06/2012 at 03:17, billy2803 said:

You are offering GC and/or GWS something to stop them from bidding for Viney. They won't do that for free - for them to consider it it would have to be a deal that is in their favour, not ours. Anything we do should not advantage a team more than the MFC. If you say it won't, why the hell would they (opposition teams) agree to it? I can't see Sheedy/Grubby agreeing to "help" us out, with the end result being equal for both teams. You've been around long enough to know that Sheedy doesn't operate that way.

I am not certain what you are saying - we are tryiong to get another top 3 pick. I haven't thought about the other two teams may get but who cares wht they get? How does that comport with your Whatever It Takes ethos once again?

  On 28/06/2012 at 03:17, billy2803 said:

And I will bring Jimmy in to it if I want. I would imagine he'd be bitterly disappointed in the MFC having to do such a thing.

I could just as easily say that he would want what is best for the MFC and that is getting another top 3 pick. But I won't because the dead are rarely able to confirm suppositions about what they might say...

  On 28/06/2012 at 03:17, billy2803 said:

If the MFC can come up with something that saw both Clubs finish equal in the deal, then I would consider it. I just think you're wasting your breath going to another Club, especially GWS, and getting them to agree to it. They would want to be ahead in the deal, it's an ego thing for them and realistically, if the deal was level for both teams, why would they give a sh!t about satisying us?

Again, I don't see how this is relevant at all.

We have a top talent in our hands that every club in Victoria is beggin GC and GWS to max us pay Pick 3 for, we have an opportunity to push that talent to Pick 25 and you are worried about whether GWS or GC would be too happy to let us do that?

WGAF?

  On 28/06/2012 at 03:17, billy2803 said:

In regards to "hiding" Jack. It makes it bloody hard with so much media exposure these days. Firstly, when he plays for Casey, play him in the back pocket or forward pocket. Seeing him play in the midfield and racking up bulk possessions against some AFL listed players isn't helping to keep a lid on it. He would have to play in the U18 championships, and it's hard to see their coach "experimenting" with Jack by playing him out of position. That said, there's always the injury concern smoke screen. If he has to go to the draft combine, we have enough players on out list that can teach him how to look like he is putting in 100% when he is actually only travelling at 70%. Perhaps I'm just sabotaging bastard! Maybe I'll get a role on Revenge!

To me, this paragraph is ridiculous. I'm sorry, but it just illustrates the implausibility of tamping down the 'hype' surrounding Jack. He is going to tear it up tomorrow and all of this 'hiding' becomes pointless, if it wasn't already 'fruitless.'

You seem to be overly worried about what GWS and GC get out of the deal.

Who cares?

If we can get another top talent for doing very little then we should do it - whoever the other parties are.

I think it's time to say we will not win this fight as we are dealing with a club of rats (kevin and gubby)

So we should be holding talks with GC right now to swap pick 3&4 for there pick 1.

MFC get Viney and Whitfield

GC get Toumpas and Stringer.

This has got to be a win win im sure Stringer & Toumpas Together are of more value to GC then just Whitfield.

And MFC get the best Kid and Viney.

The best part of this deal is poor Gubby and Kevin have no say SUCK SH&& boys.