Hence the suggestion that this is our CULTURE

How does it go...if you fail to understand the nature of your failures you are doomed to repeat them ?

Yes, but many posters on here do not realize how far this soft underbelly culture has existed.

It wasn't just in the Danniher Years.

Thew only hiccup to all this has essentially been the period of toughness under Swooper...but alas this was the atypical aberation to the rule.

Maybe we are Fuschias after all

Good stuff..

If Matthews is quietly mentoring Bailey, that is a great thing,

We need some outside successful ideas to bring in...Lethal always gave 110% on & off the park.

Maybe they were just a few football friends having lunch together. Or the agenda was nothing to do with coaching.

So it means 'Everything we do'. Surely, we can be more specific when critiquing our club.

Culture is indefinable. Its a way of behaving and thinking that differentiates a group from another group. You can only give many subjective and few objective examples of it. You could say "its just the vibe of it".

Just thought I'd chuck that in, even though it doesn't help

It worries me that as you suggest its the 23 and under brigade thatmight bring this change but if they are immersed sufficiently long in the current 'culture' then they too will turn out the same.

That's why I would hand them the reigns from 2012 and have the leadership group compiled from theat age group.

Davey, Green, and Rivers, are not natural leaders, they don't belong there, they don't know how to fake it, so move them to the periphery and I think we will find that a group with Grimes, Trengove, Frawley, and Scully will demand more from their teammates because they demand more from themselves.

Culture is indefinable. Its a way of behaving and thinking that differentiates a group from another group. You can only give many subjective and few objective examples of it. You could say "its just the vibe of it".

Just thought I'd chuck that in, even though it doesn't help

you just did ...lol

Maybe they were just a few football friends having lunch together. Or the agenda was nothing to do with coaching.

Quite Possibly, but i am sure coaching woul;d have been mentioned, and as lethal has been involved in so many final series and GF's i see nothing wrong with talking such matters.

Hell if i was the coach i would love to pick a previous successful coaches ideas, i don't see it as a weakness at all on behalf of Dean if it is infact happening, as some on here seem too.

you just did ...lol

He means the 'nature' of a culture, not the definition of culture.

Guys are we sure we are good enough!

I am beginning to wonder

Perhaps the reason we fail is that do not have enough good players

to take us above the bottom eight.

Perhaps we simply over rate our quality.

I have two mates who tell me constantly that I over rate our players

The reason we struggle every other week may be that we are just not good enough!

Guys are we sure we are good enough!

I am beginning to wonder

Perhaps the reason we fail is that do not have enough good players

to take us above the bottom eight.

Perhaps we simply over rate our quality.

I have two mates who tell me constantly that I over rate our players

The reason we struggle every other week may be that we are just not good enough!

No, we are not a good team.

But that doesn't absolve the senior players and their repeated performances - similar to last weekend's last three quarters...

That's why I would hand them the reigns from 2012 and have the leadership group compiled from theat age group.

Davey, Green, and Rivers, are not natural leaders, they don't belong there, they don't know how to fake it, so move them to the periphery and I think we will find that a group with Grimes, Trengove, Frawley, and Scully will demand more from their teammates because they demand more from themselves.

It would make a very Bold Statement wouldn't it. Completely reverse the Leadership group.

This is why i would like to see Green dropped to Casey for a spell...We need to make a big statement to this list-I always want our club to be fair with a certain amount of compassion, but the playing list must be prepared to work beyond hard during the season.

Rookie or veteran, everybody must play their role.

Captaincy to Frawley at this stage.....

He means the 'nature' of a culture, not the definition of culture.

told em it wouldn't help

No, we are not a good team.

But that doesn't absolve the senior players and their repeated performances - similar to last weekend's last three quarters...

Yes but is the reason they struggle that they are just not good enough?

You can [censored] a poor horse all day but he still won,t win the Melbourne Cup.

Yes but is the reason they struggle that they are just not good enough?

You can [censored] a poor horse all day but he still won,t win the Melbourne Cup.

Whilst I essentially concur with this...it is interesting to note that very much the same barbs were slung Essendons way last year....'nuff said

Yes but is the reason they struggle that they are just not good enough?

You can [censored] a poor horse all day but he still won,t win the Melbourne Cup.

However good we are as a list, The List is certainly capable of playing a lot better than what it is presently doing.

Let's cut to the chase & leave out the semantics.

We all know this.

Culture is indefinable. Its a way of behaving and thinking that differentiates a group from another group. You can only give many subjective and few objective examples of it. You could say "its just the vibe of it".

Just thought I'd chuck that in, even though it doesn't help

I appreciate people trying to explain it because I find it a difficult thing to believe in. If the players aren't playing well then I tend to believe that there are tangible reasons for this and also people responsible for them. Sure, we should talk about Dean's coaching, Brad's captaincy and every person's role within the club as far as our personal knowledge allows, but when somebody says it's a culture problem, true as it may be, it comes across as pointless and generic.

keep in mind like most things in life footy is 9o% between the ears.. If the head aint in the right space... the body obliges. get the mind thinking the right way the body does the necessary.

The body is defined by the gym and training.. The head by the environment it lives in. Now who's going to try and argue that the mindset , as displayed by its players , is in the right place ??

If the minset isnt right then it follows the environement it was formed in has something to do with it. The culture of the club defines that environment.

ergo something in wrong with the MFC's Culture ....no ?

I appreciate people trying to explain it because I find it a difficult thing to believe in. If the players aren't playing well then I tend to believe that there are tangible reasons for this and also people responsible for them. Sure, we should talk about Dean's coaching, Brad's captaincy and every person's role within the club as far as our personal knowledge allows, but when somebody says it's a culture problem, true as it may be, it comes across as pointless and generic.

As i said to you yesterday...You have never walked into the Hawthorn, Carlton or Essendon Clubs have you....Here lies the reason you do not understand the fundamentals of culture.

It does exist. West Coast Has it....Fremantle doesn't.

Whilst I essentially concur with this...it is interesting to note that very much the same barbs were slung Essendons way last year....'nuff said

I like Rpfc's idea re handing over the baton to the younger brigade and allowing them to take us forward into a new year. Baby Demons!!?

And Belze, your first post here (top of this page) in response to Rpfc re schoolboy attitude (not all players but cultural/club wise until now) is spot on mate.

Also i want to make a few points. I believe this club is weighed down as a result of past "acceptance of mediocrity" culture (apologies to Northey group and the few years thereafter under Balme). It will continue to carry this weight until or unless we somehow find a way to cut it out. I guess that's what we're discussing here.

1. By allowing this culture to sustain itself over so many decades now, we have created a rod for our back in 2 ways (some would say countless ways lol). I'm excluding the $ side here as that's another effect altogether.

A: The tangible. Our performances in off/down years (which unfortunately are numerous) are SO bad, and we break so many "worst" results and negative records versus other teams, that for us to beat our Vic rivals away from home (where there's a tangible history) and/or interstate clubs (away from home where there's a tangible history other than GCS for now) it takes a herculeon type of effort. One that's acheivable if everything's in place player/coach/attitude/effort wise. But, if we have a few pieces/players/weaknesses missing....

What i'm alluding to is that most other teams see us (because of our lowly history against them/others) as easy beats away from home. Hence no matter how well we are playing during the game (unless we blitz them out of the blocks and leading by 60 at half time say)....opponents always feel they're in with a chance and they play as if they can win at any stage. Like they have our measure...arrogance, belief.

Whatever you want to call it, IMO our effort required to win and overcome "their belief" that if they put the hard yards/pressure us enough etc and we'll roll over/ our history proves it etc, is fairly massive now in a relative sense. If we have the team/coach/practices/attitude in place we can overcome their belief ....with our belief and play. But at this point we don't....obviously.

IMHO, we need a great team...not just a good team, to overcome even just this aspect of our club going forward. let alone to win a premiership. To win a premiership we will need an AWESOME team full of 2 - 3 super stars and a good mix of big time/big game players.

B: To build a great team, a club needs to attract the best of the best players (obviously) and or recruits and coach. We've done so recently through tanking out (recruiting/rookie wise). But, aside from ending up on our bum again for a few years running (arrghh...wont help for next few years haha), unless we break the cycle and create a new era eg., Cats, then we'll always struggle to attract the type of trades/recruits required to fill the 3, 4 or 5 holes needed to overcome A (above) and to also win the ultimate prize. I also believe we aren't alone here ie., Bulldogs, Richmond, Saints.

The talent/big trades, more renowned coaches (Sheedy an exception as we had a shot and went for... ) tend to always want to go where the recent success is and is likely to continue or to coach lists that look very promising (obviously).

We have a small window now where we have an attractive rookie list with a few decent senior players. Not gonna stay open forever though and and then this era/opportunity is gone. The next 6-8 weeks are going to very interesting times for the MFC i feel.

Thew only hiccup to all this has essentially been the period of toughness under Swooper...but alas this was the atypical aberation to the rule.

Maybe we are Fuschias after all

It Eminates, out of the Northern stand where 'political niceties', are expected and taught. If one doesn't fit their shuffled out & on. Thats just the culture. thats why our Vic cricketers have failed for generations up till most recently as other states have become "soft". This is why our Tennis players have Failed miserably to gain a foothold as an power nation again.

We were Grand in the Amateur world of etiquette. Now in the world of materialism, we falter with a softish swish. 'Oh, it's just not cricket'.

Thew only hiccup to all this has essentially been the period of toughness under Swooper...but alas this was the atypical aberation to the rule.

Maybe we are Fuschias after all

After following the Dee's for 47 years it becomes clearer all the time that the Swooper years have been an aberration. Sadly we defaulted back to type in his final couple of years.

Quite Possibly, but i am sure coaching woul;d have been mentioned, and as lethal has been involved in so many final series and GF's i see nothing wrong with talking such matters.

Talking coaching is one thing, jumping to the conclusion that Matthews is therefore 'mentoring' Dean is another.

As i said to you yesterday...You have never walked into the Hawthorn, Carlton or Essendon Clubs have you....Here lies the reason you do not understand the fundamentals of culture.

It does exist. West Coast Has it....Fremantle doesn't.

My god, I have not once claimed to know anything. I am but a lover of the game and supporter of my club. All I have done is asked the question what is culture in terms of football? Your answer? "It does exist. West Coast Has it....Fremantle doesn't."....thanks alot.

I have never seen first hand the day to day workings of Hawthorn, Carlton or Essendon but I would love you to explain what you saw there and how it compares to MFC.

My god, I have not once claimed to know anything. I am but a lover of the game and supporter of my club. All I have done is asked the question what is culture in terms of football? Your answer? "It does exist. West Coast Has it....Fremantle doesn't."....thanks alot.

I have never seen first hand the day to day workings of Hawthorn, Carlton or Essendon but I would love you to explain what you saw there and how it compares to MFC.

Just to help you out, the reason you are copping a basting is that you are saying you don't know what culture is, but then saying you don't believe in it.

Thew only hiccup to all this has essentially been the period of toughness under Swooper...but alas this was the atypical aberation to the rule.

Maybe we are Fuschias after all

BB I vote for back to the Fuschias'

How do we get the process going?

Think of the cost savings, we will not need new jumpers the current pink one will be great.

monday morning papers will be full of good head lines

"Fuschias really palyed like a bunch of flowers yesterday"

I am sure there is a big sponser chance here with " Garden World" or "Bunnings"

A couple of players could change there names for the Sponser e.g Ivy Green

We have got to start thinking outside the square!