I understand your point but the idea that players should enter the season not believing they can win the flag really galls me.

I said nothing of the sort. I expect all players to follow the old cliche of "take it one week at the time", believe they can always win the next match, and throw everything they've got at it to make sure they do. Those responsible for managing expectations though - i.e. coaching staff and supporters - should know exactly where the side is at at all times, because setting the bar too high with unrealistic expectations is just as dangerous as setting it too low. We've seen the disastrous effects of this before - Peter Schwab's "we're going to win the premiership" anyone?

I just hope we can win a flag before gws and gc win a flag! lucky 13 don't let me down now

These clubs aren't continually playing in finals and winning flags. They have crap years where they finish at or near the bottom just like everyone else. How were Hawthorn travelling in the early 00's - when they jagged the likes of Hodge, Roughhead and Franklin with early draft picks? The difference is that they have won flags when they have been at the top of their cycle. But to suggest that they're "continually contending" is garbage. Very rarely to clubs win flags out of phase - Hawthorn were the only ones to do it in the 00s, every other team won on the back of mature, stable playing lists.

How many cycles you've been through doesn't matter. I reckon even as a 20-something I've been through enough to know that it's a frustrating, long process, and that sometimes it's hard to be patient. But the only cycle that has any relevance to the current one is the current one. Whether you've been waiting 4 years or 40, the only thing that matters is that our list is not currently in flag-winning condition but there is a very clear plan to make sure it is in one, and the plan is very clear for all to see. But I guess that's less important than stomping your feet and saying "we've been putting up with this for 40 years rahrahrah".

Have a look at how many times Hawthorn missed the finals in the last 30 years and have a look at how many flags they've won.

Have a look at the player turnover at Hawthorn; they have been able to replace one good player with another equally as good, time after time.

Essendon were in the finals under Sheedy for years winning 4 in the time he was there they were always competitive and it's only been in the past few years they haven't. I bet they get going before we do.

I'm not stomping my feet I've just had enough of the rah rah speeches I see on sites like this, if you want to accept mediocrity that's your choice, I'm sick of it. We allow the club to drift along every year with the promise of better things to come and if anyone dares to criticise the lack of action, the usual suspects come on board and ry to shout them down.

Have a look at how many times Hawthorn missed the finals in the last 30 years and have a look at how many flags they've won.

Have a look at the player turnover at Hawthorn; they have been able to replace one good player with another equally as good, time after time.

Essendon were in the finals under Sheedy for years winning 4 in the time he was there they were always competitive and it's only been in the past few years they haven't. I bet they get going before we do.

I'm not stomping my feet I've just had enough of the rah rah speeches I see on sites like this, if you want to accept mediocrity that's your choice, I'm sick of it. We allow the club to drift along every year with the promise of better things to come and if anyone dares to criticise the lack of action, the usual suspects come on board and ry to shout them down.

Hey Robbie i hear you, and not for a moment do i want to accept mediocaty (last year i was [censored] we didn't make week one of the finals-for a taste)

But i also know when you build a big tall strong building-The foundations and the planning have to be Rock Solid, and that's what i meant when i said the club is new.

3 years ago the Foundations were re layed.We didn't even have a home.

Now look where we are. It's Growing.

Have a look at how many times Hawthorn missed the finals in the last 30 years and have a look at how many flags they've won.

Have a look at the player turnover at Hawthorn; they have been able to replace one good player with another equally as good, time after time.

Essendon were in the finals under Sheedy for years winning 4 in the time he was there they were always competitive and it's only been in the past few years they haven't. I bet they get going before we do.

Hawks had a horror patch in the early to mid 2000's as NAsher pointed out which reaped high picks and Essendon has won 10 games once since 2003.

This isn't the 90's or 80's where one could build decade long "dynasties" with off field moves. Modern football with its cap, draft and generally similar off field resources/gym/medical etc will make teams have cycles.

40 years rahrhahrhah

Careful with analogies .. They can build skyscrapers and freeways in under 3 years !!

But point taken re foundations. No one , certainly not I , doubts the quality and strength of that which supports the MFC.

Some just aren't sure about what's been built on them !

Careful with analogies .. They can build skyscrapers and freeways in under 3 years !!

But point taken re foundations. No one , certainly not I , doubts the quality and strength of that which supports the MFC.

Some just aren't sure about what's been built on them !

Yes BB but how well do they last??

This club is setting up long term goals, i haven't come across that before.

I think you are spot on RP.

Davey, Moloney, MacDonald, Jones, Bate, Dunn, Jamar, Rivers, and Batram are the only players in the 'prime' of their footballing careers (23+ year old players with over 70 games worth of experience as a rough rule - would love people to take issue with it)

Green is extending his prime as very good players do.

But with this we see why we had our rebuild.

Davey, Jamar, and Green are our established stars out there (Frawley becoming AA in his 4th year is a seductive phenomenon, but nowhere near the norm).

The other 6 have their moments but haven't put it together long enough to be considered with the previous 4. Some of those 6 players simply won't make it much further.

The rest are kids.

And here we have the issue - good sides, not flag-winning sides, but good, solid sides that are consistent and at their most professional have a better class of established, experienced players than we do.

Can someone please tweet this to Mike Sheahan ? Perhaps he could achieve another insightful article..but this time he can explain why expectations for 2011 need to be tempered.

For those expecting nothing less than finals, finals and finals: Have a good look at our list (and I mean a decent look). It would be a good achievement if the team did reach September. But there lies a bigger picture.

BB59 - it might be deja vu for you, but we've been saying it since '08. That is not that long ago;... more patience required.

Good post.{thumbs up rp}

PS. I'm 36 and patient enough for a flag.

Some things are just intangible to pin point. We were blessed that Jimmy was the kind of character that came into our club, how could anybody predict it when he was a hopeless kid learning to kick, who would have predicted he would be such a great leader, you can never predict who will rise from the body of good people to be exceptional.

Premiership teams have several (usually) several superstars, and a dozen A players, but there's no magic formula for turning a good player into an A class player, the quality is a hidden factor at draft time. The hardest trainer still might find those extra special gifts.

Most coaches who are chosen by clubs, can all talk the talk, some walk the walk and a couple can steer the ship through the heads, they all have an intangible quality.

Probably every other club (bar Collingwood at the moment, although I think they will be asking some big questions next year when Malthouse has gone and buckley is running the ship)could have had this discussion.

There is no magic formula, the journey is the game, the flag is the outcome of many factors but in the end it is a gift some have the pleasure of celebrating for 6 months. How the Saints didn't win last year is beyond definition. Another 30 - 60 and they probably would have won it. As Leigh Matthews is noted for having said, 'its about the shape of the ball'. Ask Stevie Milne.

I have also seen my fair share of rebuilds, as has my father who was around for the last few premierships. I am 27 years old, and have not suffered as long as many. But I can honestly say that I have never seen a list with this much young talent at the club ever. My father in his late 50's agree with this, and even though he has suffered he agrees that these kids could actually deliver the goods instead of just filling out the numbers.

I am not here to do a "rah-rah" about the club. The fact is we are better placed in terms of talent than we have been in decades. This doesn't guarantee success, but it gives us a bloody good chance to raise a cup if the other teams cannot match our talent when it matures.

The waiting game truly sucks, and I am right with all of you who want some success now. But a part of me actually does buy into the rebuild this time around. So for ONE more season, I will watch the club and coach put games into kids for the betterment of the club.

We have a young list, and we have a long way to go. If we get there, I look forward to drinking a beer with each and every one of you.

The point I made HT with sarcasm , regarding Deja Vu is just that . Melbourne supporters have been coming to the well since 64 and on each occasion go home empty handed, then we all chew the fat ad nauseam during the time between games. It's become groundhog day. It's been this way for ages, long before 08.

It's all become familiar. We don't even need full arguments really any more we could assign them all numbers and we could just roll out numbers to each other. Far more efficient.

It's understandable, the frustrations. They oughtn't be dismissed out of hand with platitudes.

It's no consolation for many to be instructed by others to wait. After many a season the waiting grows thin as sustenance.some simply prefer a more palatable menu.

Yes we ought to do much better in 011. I have us in the eight. I can however undrstand why some wouldn't.

So for many it's very much been there , done that .

The point I made HT with sarcasm , regarding Deja Vu is just that . Melbourne supporters have been coming to the well since 64 and on each occasion go home empty handed, then we all chew the fat ad nauseam during the time between games. It's become groundhog day. It's been this way for ages, long before 08.

It's all become familiar. We don't even need full arguments really any more we could assign them all numbers and we could just roll out numbers to each other. Far more efficient.

It's understandable, the frustrations. They oughtn't be dismissed out of hand with platitudes.

It's no consolation for many to be instructed by others to wait. After many a season the waiting grows thin as sustenance.some simply prefer a more palatable menu.

Yes we ought to do much better in 011. I have us in the eight. I can however undrstand why some wouldn't.

So for many it's very much been there , done that .

Each footy season is different, so who really knows?????

"We want the world and we want it now"!!!

"We want the world and we want it now"!!!

"They took our Jobs".....

"We want the world and we want it now"!!!

"May take all week or it ... May take longer ." B)

"May take all week or it ... May take longer ." B)

"I want to get my kicks before the whole shitehouse goes up in Fames....alright"

Jim would have been a good coach...for maybe 10 minutes, then he would have got Bored!!

For those that think all I am saying is predictable piffle - what do you think the rest of us think when you mention the '40 years of failure' and the 'constant rebuilds that lead to nothing'?

We hear irrelevance.

What the frack does that failure and those shoddy rebuilds have to do with Bailey and his tenure?

Nothing.

You want to win 13 games a season and never have a sniff - we can do that. We can trade and we can look at the VFL.

And we can be that good team that wins its preseason games and beats more than half the league.

But when it comes to winning the whole thing - no fracking chance. It's 1998, 2000, 2002, 2004, 2005, 2006 all over again.

But its warm and cosy to have a decent team if you don't think about it too hard.

But I went into those years with 'topped up' teams and NQR players in important positions knowing we didn't have a chance of beating NM in 1998, Ess in 2000, or winning the flag in 2002, 2004, 2005, or 2006.

We have a real rebuild now, we have made the hard decisions to move on players (only last year) and we have complied the youngsters to win a flag.

All we need is patience.

But where will the improvement come from?

Surely it's the same as the last 44 years.

But where will the improvement come from?

Surely it's the same as the last 44 years.

Surely.

Wouldn't bother going to the game anymore...

If everything that was, will ever shall be, what's the point?

I wonder if anyone would literally go up to Trengove, Gysberts, Grimes et al and ask them "whether they think they can improve".

I hope they are as patronising as [censored], if they get that question.

For those that think all I am saying is predictable piffle - what do you think the rest of us think when you mention the '40 years of failure' and the 'constant rebuilds that lead to nothing'?

We hear irrelevance.

What the frack does that failure and those shoddy rebuilds have to do with Bailey and his tenure?

Nothing.

You want to win 13 games a season and never have a sniff - we can do that. We can trade and we can look at the VFL.

And we can be that good team that wins its preseason games and beats more than half the league.

But when it comes to winning the whole thing - no fracking chance. It's 1998, 2000, 2002, 2004, 2005, 2006 all over again.

But its warm and cosy to have a decent team if you don't think about it too hard.

But I went into those years with 'topped up' teams and NQR players in important positions knowing we didn't have a chance of beating NM in 1998, Ess in 2000, or winning the flag in 2002, 2004, 2005, or 2006.

We have a real rebuild now, we have made the hard decisions to move on players (only last year) and we have complied the youngsters to win a flag.

All we need is patience.

I felt all warm and fuzzy when I read your post knowing that this is the "real rebuild" and the others were just false dawns, I seem to have heard that before but not from you, so that gives me some comfort.

There were those that thought we were on the right track in 2000, you know when we made the GF against the odds, it seemed that it was only a matter of time and with such a good young team we would surely win one soon, imagine their surprise when we failed to make the finals the next year. But I guess you wren't convinced were you?

Previously there was the Northey era when we had some exceptional players but just couldn't go all he way; they must have been one of the decent teams you refer to; were they? Maybe you were too young to remember them? They couldn't grasp the prize either but they gave it a shake.

We've got a problem at Melbourne and it's not just the quality of the players it's imbedded in the club and it needs to be eradicated if we are ever going to win a flag.

BTW I apologise for my irrelevance in supporting the team for over 50 years I'll try not to make too much noise in future now that I know it upsets you.

I hope I haven't sounded condescending here, have I?

We've got a problem at Melbourne and it's not just the quality of the players it's imbedded in the club and it needs to be eradicated if we are ever going to win a flag.

No doubt an opportunity was missed in 2000 - we missed out on a flag when that particular list was in its prime (~2003-2004). We also missed out on a flag during the Northey era. Who knows why - it could've been poor player development, it could've been rotten luck due to injuries, it could've been poor coaching, it could've just been that the players we had just plain weren't good enough.

I still don't see the link between then and now though, other than the name of the club. The staff and player rolls were completely different during both those eras and are completely different again in this era. There's absolutely no logic in concluding that this time will be the same as last time because none of the variables are the same - that's just your emotionally battered footy heart saying that.

For those that think all I am saying is predictable piffle - what do you think the rest of us think when you mention the '40 years of failure' and the 'constant rebuilds that lead to nothing'?

We hear irrelevance.

What the frack does that failure and those shoddy rebuilds have to do with Bailey and his tenure?

Nothing.

You want to win 13 games a season and never have a sniff - we can do that. We can trade and we can look at the VFL.

And we can be that good team that wins its preseason games and beats more than half the league.

But when it comes to winning the whole thing - no fracking chance. It's 1998, 2000, 2002, 2004, 2005, 2006 all over again.

But its warm and cosy to have a decent team if you don't think about it too hard.

But I went into those years with 'topped up' teams and NQR players in important positions knowing we didn't have a chance of beating NM in 1998, Ess in 2000, or winning the flag in 2002, 2004, 2005, or 2006.

We have a real rebuild now, we have made the hard decisions to move on players (only last year) and we have complied the youngsters to win a flag.

All we need is patience.

You say that as though no one in the last 46 years did a good job.

No doubt an opportunity was missed in 2000 - we missed out on a flag when that particular list was in its prime (~2003-2004). We also missed out on a flag during the Northey era. Who knows why - it could've been poor player development, it could've been rotten luck due to injuries, it could've been poor coaching, it could've just been that the players we had just plain weren't good enough.

I still don't see the link between then and now though, other than the name of the club. The staff and player rolls were completely different during both those eras and are completely different again in this era. There's absolutely no logic in concluding that this time will be the same as last time because none of the variables are the same - that's just your emotionally battered footy heart saying that.

Nash the one ting about supporting a club for a long time is you can see the common denominator, and it's been with the club since the last Premiership Flag.

We are a humble club and completely lack the arrogance we had during the successful years. We seem to lack self belief and that is also a continuing thread.

Why do you think other club's supporters think we're soft; it's because we are. We will always be considered soft as long as our supporters just sit back and don't demand success like the Essendon and other club's supporters do.

I felt all warm and fuzzy when I read your post knowing that this is the "real rebuild" and the others were just false dawns, I seem to have heard that before but not from you, so that gives me some comfort.

There were those that thought we were on the right track in 2000, you know when we made the GF against the odds, it seemed that it was only a matter of time and with such a good young team we would surely win one soon, imagine their surprise when we failed to make the finals the next year. But I guess you wren't convinced were you?

Previously there was the Northey era when we had some exceptional players but just couldn't go all he way; they must have been one of the decent teams you refer to; were they? Maybe you were too young to remember them? They couldn't grasp the prize either but they gave it a shake.

We've got a problem at Melbourne and it's not just the quality of the players it's imbedded in the club and it needs to be eradicated if we are ever going to win a flag.

BTW I apologise for my irrelevance in supporting the team for over 50 years I'll try not to make too much noise in future now that I know it upsets you.

I hope I haven't sounded condescending here, have I?

Robbief I am really worried I think you are a body snatcher!

You keep writing my lines before I get a chance.

Go buddy you are spot on.

Its a pity us older guys with memories longer than 15 years get in the road!