While our third quarter comeback showed some steel, some very dubious umpiring decisions went our way which resulted in Melbourne goals. It also took until after quarter time for us apply any real pressure. What really disturbed me yesterday was the way Carlton confidently came out and bullied us from even before the first bounce. It was very interesting to watch Houlihan just pushing Grimes away from Betts like a schoolyard bully and the other players seemed to be unwilling to do anything about it. Whether they were worried about giving Carlton free kicks in front of goal. Houlihan spent much of the first half just blocking Grimes' path to Betts and it was extremely effective. It also seemed to bamboozle whoever was on Houlihan and freed him up do kick his own goals as well. A brilliant tactic and we had absolutely no counter to it. Grimes was obviously frustrated but didn't have the physical strength to do much about it. Warnock had his hands full, as did Rivers. Meanwhile, up the ground, Carlton were harassing us from Kruezer on Jamar right down to Carazzo on Davey. They had a arrogance and physical confidence about them which probably stems from their good form and the fact they they were bigger than us on average. The guys that normally work as our enforcers (Moloney, Sylvia, McDonald), had too much on their plates around the stoppages to worry about what was happening to Grimes at one end and Watts at the other. Why didn't Miller do something? It would have been worth him giving away a couple a cheap frees on the forward line to give Watts some support. I know Watts has to learn to fend for himself, and that yesterday he was pushed away from the contest like a skinny schoolkid, but Miller should have used his strength to counter what was going on. That's what Carlton did. They used smart intimidation to give there goalkickers an avenue to goal. I would hope that the coaching staff would work on this aspect during the next couple of weeks. While we have young inexperienced players learning the game, the older players need to support them. Jonathon Brown would never stand by and let stuff like that happen.

By the way, Watts does need to go back to Casey for a few weeks and develop some confidence, passion and attack on the ball. Also, we really missed Frawley yesterday for all the reasons above.

  On 06/06/2010 at 03:28, btdemon said:

While our third quarter comeback showed some steel, some very dubious umpiring decisions went our way which resulted in Melbourne goals. It also took until after quarter time for us apply any real pressure. What really disturbed me yesterday was the way Carlton confidently came out and bullied us from even before the first bounce. It was very interesting to watch Houlihan just pushing Grimes away from Betts like a schoolyard bully and the other players seemed to be unwilling to do anything about it. Whether they were worried about giving Carlton free kicks in front of goal. Houlihan spent much of the first half just blocking Grimes' path to Betts and it was extremely effective. It also seemed to bamboozle whoever was on Houlihan and freed him up do kick his own goals as well. A brilliant tactic and we had absolutely no counter to it. Grimes was obviously frustrated but didn't have the physical strength to do much about it. Warnock had his hands full, as did Rivers. Meanwhile, up the ground, Carlton were harassing us from Kruezer on Jamar right down to Carazzo on Davey. They had a arrogance and physical confidence about them which probably stems from their good form and the fact they they were bigger than us on average. The guys that normally work as our enforcers (Moloney, Sylvia, McDonald), had too much on their plates around the stoppages to worry about what was happening to Grimes at one end and Watts at the other. Why didn't Miller do something? It would have been worth him giving away a couple a cheap frees on the forward line to give Watts some support. I know Watts has to learn to fend for himself, and that yesterday he was pushed away from the contest like a skinny schoolkid, but Miller should have used his strength to counter what was going on. That's what Carlton did. They used smart intimidation to give there goalkickers an avenue to goal. I would hope that the coaching staff would work on this aspect during the next couple of weeks. While we have young inexperienced players learning the game, the older players need to support them. Jonathon Brown would never stand by and let stuff like that happen.

By the way, Watts does need to go back to Casey for a few weeks and develop some confidence, passion and attack on the ball. Also, we really missed Frawley yesterday for all the reasons above.

I was bullied by their supporters, too...

Agree with you, after watching us against a mature side like Geelong, it is obvious we need to bulk up generally all over the ground. Get Wonaeamirri to cook them all Tiwi turtle once a week!

Excellent post. The lack of a physical presence is palpable.

Colin Garland is one player who needs to find an extra gear in this regard. He needs to be more commanding and play with more intensity.

Carlton played very "unsociable" football yesterday. I worry whether our chaps are all a bit too "nice". You do need a significant number of "unsociable" players in a successful finals team in order to maintain that sustained level of intimidation.

  On 06/06/2010 at 03:51, btdemon said:

Carlton played very "unsociable" football yesterday. I worry whether our chaps are all a bit too "nice". You do need a significant number of "unsociable" players in a successful finals team in order to maintain that sustained level of intimidation.

Yep, we need to have a bit more mongrel in our game. Two or three really aggressive a'hole's wouldn't go astray: Miller used to be quite aggressive, as did Brent Moloney. And what about Sylvia as well.

Sitting at the game yesterday it was very embarrassing listening to the Blues supporters chortling away at Jack Watts as he got pushed all over the place - reminded me of his first game last year!!!!! Gee I hope they don't play him next week!

we better find some unsociable mongrel real quick. Or else imagine what Collingwood will do to us. It will be fairly obvious to all opposition now that this is our achilles heel.

Would hate to watch Watts being unceremoniously bustled out of every contest by the pies, one reason why I hope he gets a rest (Dunn's sudden form is another).

Thanks btdemon my very first post was on this very subject our best football this year has been when we hunt in packs and run the lines we should also be protecting in packs as well i also sat near carlton supporters calling watts a dud he sat quiet when i asked how many best on grounds krueser won in his first 1-5 games c'mon demons show the other sides when we come to play we come to look after our own ps i was told when miller got back in the side he would be helping young jack out????

Melbourne seriously needs to find some ticker! They need to be real C.nts out there! Sorry to use that word. No more bullying.

I didnt care if we had a player reported yesterday. We need to make a stand! Carlton are going to be our rivals for years to come. And yes, they did bully us yesterday! Stand up Melbourne.

Get physical! Real physical.

We need Dermie to have a talk too them!

When you see games like that you realise that our better young players are just kids and our older players are just not physical enough, even Junior is a ball player and not aggressive at the opposition.

I can't remember the last time we had a few hard at it, real mongrel players that would intimidate their opponent and make them think twice before they went for the ball. We've been reasonably soft over the last 10 or so years and there's no one there that makes me think we'll get any tougher real soon.

  On 06/06/2010 at 05:03, RobbieF said:

When you see games like that you realise that our better young players are just kids and our older players are just not physical enough, even Junior is a ball player and not aggressive at the opposition.

I can't remember the last time we had a few hard at it, real mongrel players that would intimidate their opponent and make them think twice before they went for the ball. We've been reasonably soft over the last 10 or so years and there's no one there that makes me think we'll get any tougher real soon.

Pickett, Neitz, Schwartz just falls into your timeframe as well.

  On 06/06/2010 at 05:26, Demonic_Inferno said:

Pickett, Neitz, Schwartz just falls into your timeframe as well.

Pickett was finished when he came to Melbourne and only played half a season before he did his Hammy, after that he was useless.

Neita was hard at the ball and did a bit of damage on the odd occasion but was predominantly a ball player. Schwarta ran around and used his weight but towards the end of his career he used to bowl players over long after they had disposed of the ball or if he couldn't catch him the player that was shepherding.

I'm talking about a player or players that frightens the shizen house of of the opposition.

  On 06/06/2010 at 03:28, btdemon said:

While our third quarter comeback showed some steel, some very dubious umpiring decisions went our way which resulted in Melbourne goals. It also took until after quarter time for us apply any real pressure. What really disturbed me yesterday was the way Carlton confidently came out and bullied us from even before the first bounce. It was very interesting to watch Houlihan just pushing Grimes away from Betts like a schoolyard bully and the other players seemed to be unwilling to do anything about it. Whether they were worried about giving Carlton free kicks in front of goal. Houlihan spent much of the first half just blocking Grimes' path to Betts and it was extremely effective. It also seemed to bamboozle whoever was on Houlihan and freed him up do kick his own goals as well. A brilliant tactic and we had absolutely no counter to it. Grimes was obviously frustrated but didn't have the physical strength to do much about it. Warnock had his hands full, as did Rivers. Meanwhile, up the ground, Carlton were harassing us from Kruezer on Jamar right down to Carazzo on Davey. They had a arrogance and physical confidence about them which probably stems from their good form and the fact they they were bigger than us on average. The guys that normally work as our enforcers (Moloney, Sylvia, McDonald), had too much on their plates around the stoppages to worry about what was happening to Grimes at one end and Watts at the other. Why didn't Miller do something? It would have been worth him giving away a couple a cheap frees on the forward line to give Watts some support. I know Watts has to learn to fend for himself, and that yesterday he was pushed away from the contest like a skinny schoolkid, but Miller should have used his strength to counter what was going on. That's what Carlton did. They used smart intimidation to give there goalkickers an avenue to goal. I would hope that the coaching staff would work on this aspect during the next couple of weeks. While we have young inexperienced players learning the game, the older players need to support them. Jonathon Brown would never stand by and let stuff like that happen.

By the way, Watts does need to go back to Casey for a few weeks and develop some confidence, passion and attack on the ball. Also, we really missed Frawley yesterday for all the reasons above.

Great OP.

What gets me is that we repeatedly seem to be surprised by how other teams attack us at the start of the game. Carlscum have been doing this off-the-ball stuff for decades. They know that the umpires never catch the perpetrator, they only turn around in time to catch the retaliator, and they sucked us in real good.

The coaching staff don't seem to anticipate that other sides are going to do this and we get surprised by it. That's what gets me, we select dumb and we play dumb, especially in games we need most to win. We've won very few first quarters this year, and when we have, we've done well. The first 10-15 minutes of the game are the most important for us this year. It's stupid not to expect oppositions to go for us at the start.

We handball more than any other team in the comp. It was Ratten's plan to pressure our young players and they would cough it up.

His plan worked a treat. Carrazzo hounded Davey all day and he played his worst game for a while.

On physicality, why does Watts not realise the opportunity he has right now?

All he needs to do is hit one contest hard, lay one big bump or show some sort of intent with a shepherd to get our supporters onside...and get some respect from opposition supporters.

Slipping over and throwing his hands up like he's given up is not what we're looking for! It's not to do with his size - it's all about intent and intensity.

The whole team needs to attack the contest like Farmer or Tingay used to - all we want is an honest effort, whether it's marking attempts, shepherding or even manning the mark correctly.

I look at all the little things when the game gets away from us - and sometimes it's downright embarassing.

Yep, Carlton played the men and it worked a treat for them, because sadly our kids didn't know how to cope with it and our senior players lost the plot when challenged.

Davey, Moloney, Miller, even Junior all gave away stupid, unnecessary free kicks out of frustration. We played into Carlton's cheating, filthy, scumbag hands, and that is by far the most depressing and gut-wrenching aspect of yesterday's game.

I'd be seriously tempted to drop Davey after his disgraceful efforts, but I know it won't happen.

What particulary annoys me about being bullied by Carlton, is that the two people who constructed the plan in Ratten and Riley, are both former Melbourne coaches.

That tells me that we are still considered a soft and mentally weak team by those who have been inside our club before, and what we all deep down really know about our club, but were hoping wasn't the case anymore.

That probably breaks my heart as much as aything out of yesterdays game. I am going to hate going to work tomorrow and see those smug, smirking Carlton faces.

  On 06/06/2010 at 05:03, RobbieF said:

When you see games like that you realise that our better young players are just kids and our older players are just not physical enough, even Junior is a ball player and not aggressive at the opposition.

I can't remember the last time we had a few hard at it, real mongrel players that would intimidate their opponent and make them think twice before they went for the ball. We've been reasonably soft over the last 10 or so years and there's no one there that makes me think we'll get any tougher real soon.

Todd Viney was the last Full Time Hard Man we had. Nieta was more part time.

I am sick of being out coached in the first Quarter as well. No excuse when all players are fresh.

Come on Bails next week is your day as well.

  On 06/06/2010 at 05:03, RobbieF said:

When you see games like that you realise that our better young players are just kids and our older players are just not physical enough, even Junior is a ball player and not aggressive at the opposition.

I can't remember the last time we had a few hard at it, real mongrel players that would intimidate their opponent and make them think twice before they went for the ball. We've been reasonably soft over the last 10 or so years and there's no one there that makes me think we'll get any tougher real soon.

I am hoping that when he matures, Tapscott will help out in this area.

  On 06/06/2010 at 07:09, TheBuzz said:

On physicality, why does Watts not realise the opportunity he has right now?

All he needs to do is hit one contest hard, lay one big bump or show some sort of intent with a shepherd to get our supporters onside...and get some respect from opposition supporters.

Slipping over and throwing his hands up like he's given up is not what we're looking for! It's not to do with his size - it's all about intent and intensity.

The whole team needs to attack the contest like Farmer or Tingay used to - all we want is an honest effort, whether it's marking attempts, shepherding or even manning the mark correctly.

I look at all the little things when the game gets away from us - and sometimes it's downright embarassing.

Great first post, TB. Scully earned my undying respect when he didn't shirk getting hit while playing the ball about 6 weeks ago. Showed the kid's got that fearless desperation.

And you're right, there's heaps of those little things for the coaches to work on. And a few biggies too!

  On 06/06/2010 at 08:27, s-t-i-n-g-a said:

I am hoping that when he matures, Tapscott will help out in this area.

I think that's the plan, he's enormous and from what I've hear has a bit of a mean streak. I get sick of seeing the players push and shove before the game, that's kids stuff, I would rather see them put their head over the ball and make the opposition a bit hesitant to. It's a bit like Dunn he's a big guy and probably pretty strong; but does anyone reckon he would frighten the opposition?

Miller used to be a hard man but that went out the door with his last suspension.

The signs were bad at the opening bounce. Jones, McDonald and Moloney all in for the first bounce, a la 2007, and all clearly with a defensive mindset. There were boundary throw-ins where our players did nothing but watch their opponents. Before yesterday, Trenners has been at >50% of the centre bounces in the games he's played. Yesterday, I think I counted one time. We only looked food when we attacked in the third quarter, when it was bloody obvious that we wouldn't win the game by defending. Our forwards and backs seemed intent on playing from behind (Grimes was one exception yesterday) and there was bugger all run at all. This Melbourne team has to attack to win. We were bullied because we were reactive from the beginning. Did we need to bully them? Hell no. They should have been left to bully our dust, as we streamed through the middle towards goal.

When we play bad we dont play as a team, we forget about the hard things that win footy games like helping out a team mate when a tagger is getting the better of him, laying a few good blocks to create space, work hard to sheppard and tackle. We have to learn to protect our good players and this has to start in the coaches box. If I was Bailey yeterday and saw what was going on with Davey I would have push him forward and tell him to try a milk a free kick, tell Miller to protect him.

We need to get Sylvia playing on the ball more often, we gives that hardness in the middle.

Was thinking the same thing as the OP.

I would have loved to see Miller just belt a couple, starting with the clowns getting stuck into Watts especially Joe Anderson. Or Frawley/Warnock taking out O'Hopeless and Houlihan. Line in the sand wouldn't have been the worst thing.

I don't want an arrogant Carlton side to have an edge over us.

Realistically though I think the guys lifted and we were even in the second quarter, won the third with the breeze but then kicking against the breeze in the strong rain was very difficult.

  On 06/06/2010 at 09:22, pitchfork said:

The signs were bad at the opening bounce. Jones, McDonald and Moloney all in for the first bounce, a la 2007, and all clearly with a defensive mindset. There were boundary throw-ins where our players did nothing but watch their opponents. Before yesterday, Trenners has been at >50% of the centre bounces in the games he's played. Yesterday, I think I counted one time. We only looked food when we attacked in the third quarter, when it was bloody obvious that we wouldn't win the game by defending. Our forwards and backs seemed intent on playing from behind (Grimes was one exception yesterday) and there was bugger all run at all. This Melbourne team has to attack to win. We were bullied because we were reactive from the beginning. Did we need to bully them? Hell no. They should have been left to bully our dust, as we streamed through the middle towards goal.

Totally agree. If we want to begin games with our 2008/2009 midfield, we shouldn't be surprised if the result's the same as it was in 2008 & 2009.

Before the end of the season I'd like just once to see us start a game with our 2012 midfield - Scully, Trengove, and either Gysberts or McKenzie.

  On 06/06/2010 at 05:03, RobbieF said:

When you see games like that you realise that our better young players are just kids and our older players are just not physical enough, even Junior is a ball player and not aggressive at the opposition.

I can't remember the last time we had a few hard at it, real mongrel players that would intimidate their opponent and make them think twice before they went for the ball. We've been reasonably soft over the last 10 or so years and there's no one there that makes me think we'll get any tougher real soon.

Thats right, but they all have to know that they must stick up for themselves &&&,,, one another... ONE for all,,, & all for One, should be what WE Abide by.

Remember, some of us tried to say Bennell should have been given a rest earlier this season to teach him to be harder.

Well, thats where this stuff is learnt, it's the culture, you have the line in the sand,,, or you don't.