For the last 12 months, I have placed Dunn and Bartram into my group of 'list cloggers' that are destined to be delisted by 2012, and are who depth players who play when we have injuries.

However for the last 3 matches, both have played much better... making me think that they might have turned the corner and perhaps might still have a long-term role to play.

Bartram: Bartram's weakness has always been his decision making and kicking. He is now consistently taking the first and easiest option, and as a consequence is hitting targets! His strengths are his endurance, strength and is relatively quick. He is developing into a really good option as a shut-down defender who can provide a bit of run or even a defensive midfielder.

Dunn: Once again, decision making and his inability to thrive in a set position have meant Dunn has floundered the last 24 months. But I like him as a high half forward who can take stints in the midfield. His has a really good burst of speed, which allows him to get 2-3 meters on his opponent on the lead. I noticed him successfully do this a few times against the tigers and provide a strong option about 70m from goal. This was crucial since there were several times when we seemed to have noone in the forward line, so we needed an intermediate target whilst players streamed forward. Dunn is still making errors, but seems to have cut them down by half!

Have these guys turned the corner? Can they play a role even when our young guns are up and flying in 2 years? Or are they biding their time until Morton, Wona, Watts, Jurrah, Strauss replace them?

For the last 12 months, I have placed Dunn and Bartram into my group of 'list cloggers' that are destined to be delisted by 2012, and are who depth players who play when we have injuries.

However for the last 3 matches, both have played much better... making me think that they might have turned the corner and perhaps might still have a long-term role to play.

Bartram: Bartram's weakness has always been his decision making and kicking. He is now consistently taking the first and easiest option, and as a consequence is hitting targets! His strengths are his endurance, strength and is relatively quick. He is developing into a really good option as a shut-down defender who can provide a bit of run or even a defensive midfielder.

Dunn: Once again, decision making and his inability to thrive in a set position have meant Dunn has floundered the last 24 months. But I like him as a high half forward who can take stints in the midfield. His has a really good burst of speed, which allows him to get 2-3 meters on his opponent on the lead. I noticed him successfully do this a few times against the tigers and provide a strong option about 70m from goal. This was crucial since there were several times when we seemed to have noone in the forward line, so we needed an intermediate target whilst players streamed forward. Dunn is still making errors, but seems to have cut them down by half!

Have these guys turned the corner? Can they play a role even when our young guns are up and flying in 2 years? Or are they biding their time until Morton, Wona, Watts, Jurrah, Strauss replace them?

Don't know about Bartram. Surprisingly Dunn is one of the taller players on our list. Think he was drafted as a forward & I think that position is probably his best. If he can develop his overhead marking and kicking a little more he could be a real valuable asset over time.

We have beaten two very poor teams and met the maggies on a downer. However over the four matches played one has to say both have improved. However, lets judge players after Round 22 not 4.

However I also think Dunn could develop into a very versatile player- a Mr Fix it- he has played, back, forward, wing, run with and now ruck..Mr Fix it.

I think he could make a great half forward flanker or a tall wingman.

Bartram is a struggle. Will always be difficult to hold his place.

Edited April 21, 201015 yr by jayceebee31

Dunn's decision making and disposal is still an issue although he is a much improved player.

I think he'll struggle to hold his spot once some of the young KPP's develop ie Watts, Fitzpatrick, Gawn.

Bartram: Bartram's weakness has always been his decision making and kicking. He is now consistently taking the first and easiest option, and as a consequence is hitting targets!

Well I think that pretty much sums it up...a lot of easy kicks, no penetration. But the fact is Bartram can only retain his spot if he provides something constructive out of the backline. There's just no room in our backline for a small defender who doesn't "create". I love the way he goes about it, but I just don't know if he has the leg speed, kicking penetration, wits for the back line. Strauss instead for me.

It's just one of those tough things...give him some time in the 2's to add some more versatility, maybe as a negating midfielder or a Campbell Brown type forward.

Dunn will be a solid second tier backup player, when the team is fully up and running. As for Bartram, admittedly, I had ridden him off, but pleasantly he's proved me wrong and I now see him fitting into our plans going forward. He may not be our number one tagger, but he'd be close.

Both have made progress, but I think they will need to make a lot more to keep their spot in the side as our other players develop.

Bartram has been a revelation. Good disposal, tough, pace, good decision making. Can it last ? I won't bet my house on it.

Dunn is a potatoe. I wonder how many half hearted efforts and undisciplined free kicks he'll give away this week ? He's been a good moving target and does have ability, but he shits me to tears.

Dunn will be a solid second tier backup player, when the team is fully up and running. As for Bartram, admittedly, I had ridden him off, but pleasantly he's proved me wrong and I now see him fitting into our plans going forward. He may not be our number one tagger, but he'd be close.

Dunn tries hard - he is currently more in favour than Miller - hence his recent forward line work. I did not think he was up to the task of ruck duties last Saturday - in the centre square when Jamar was resting. Dunn has spent several seasons not being able to claim a permanent spot in the 22, and being shuffled around from one position to another when playing. Bartram is a hard worker - probably just a bit too small.

Dunn is a potatoe. I wonder how many half hearted efforts and undisciplined free kicks he'll give away this week ? He's been a good moving target and does have ability, but he shits me to tears.

Sums it up well. He seems to have a one massive cockup per game minimum; be it flinching in a contest, playing on in farcical fashion, or kicking a half-pass-half-shot-on-goal and getting the worst result out of the three - a point. He loses the plot in the heat of the moment and for that reason alone I reckon he's still in a lot of doubt long term.

Bartram has just shown everyone why the FD clearly love him.

Dunn and Bartram provide something that is useful to us, mature bodies. Or at least more mature than the majority of our list. Bailey is playing them because that is probably our biggest weakness. They'll have to improve another level to be useful to the club when some of our younger players overtake them.

Neither have turned the corner.

Bartram has had a couple of good games. But he hasn't really set the world on fire. Just doing a job. He'll keep his spot while he keeps doing his job.

Aside from some valiant efforts in the ruck, it's been the same Dunn as always. Always looking lost when we don't have the ball, basic errors by hand and foot. Just warming the seat for the likes of Morton, Watts, Jurrah, Wonna, Tapscott at co.

They are average players holding their spot in an bottom 8 team.

If they had turned the corner they would be in our best each week, they are experienced players amongst kids after all.

I wish the best to both of them but I think the best I can say about them is that this year they have been suprisingly serviceable, if it were not for the fact they are both coming off such a low base after successive poor years we'd be expecting a lot more than that.

I still don't know where either of them fit in. Normally when you identify a player as having 'turned the corner' their is a position they have nailed to go with it.

Edited April 21, 201015 yr by torpedo

I really like Bartram. I hope for his sake and the clubs he can keep improving to hold his spot. If a guy is playing well when he comes into the side then he isn't a list clogger. If Bartram keeps the pressure on Strauss and Bennell to earn his spot as the small defender then I'm happy with him.

Dunn still needs to find a gear as a forward or midfielder, because I don't think he has the height to be a long term second ruck option. Then again he just has moments of clean skill, a good goal sense and a really strong body. He has to keep striving to find the improvement needed.

Worse players than both have won premierships.

Sums it up well. He seems to have a one massive cockup per game minimum; be it flinching in a contest, playing on in farcical fashion, or kicking a half-pass-half-shot-on-goal and getting the worst result out of the three - a point. He loses the plot in the heat of the moment and for that reason alone I reckon he's still in a lot of doubt long term.

Thanks for reminding me. That happened on Sunday. Although I'm not sure if it even ended up a point as I was cursing his brain fade.

I've got to watch my mouth sometimes at the footy. But that instance was a good excuse for a spray. Not that Dunn could hear me.

Bartram's weakness has always been his decision making and kicking. He is now consistently taking the first and easiest option, and as a consequence is hitting targets!

Good decision making and selecting the best options are products of a better organised team. Better than the opposition, anyway. If Bartram (and Dunn, and Jones, who was mentioned in another thread) are more consistently hitting targets, as they did against Adelaide and Richmond, it's probably because every time they received the ball in the last two games there were good options staring them in the face. You will get that against scrubbers, but as you saw against Hawthorn, a team capable of sustained pressure and closing down space, Melbourne's option-taking was severely hampered and we coughed the ball up looking for unrealistic options.

That we are teaming better, and Bartram, Dunn and Jones are hitting targets, is a good thing. But we need to start doing it against the good teams.

Also, if a player approaches the ball in traffic confident - the operative word here - he can pick it up and give it to someone in a good position, it markedly improves his confidence in his ability to pick the ball up. Call it the Cycle of Confidence. (As opposed to Carl Williams' Cycle of Violence.)

We definitely DO look crisper, and we have played some tidy footy this year, but wait until we play the sides that put a clamp on the opposition (StKilda, Geelong and Sydney) to see how we have progressed.

Having said that, let me now say this: our gameplan seems similar to those three pressure sides, so if it is Curley Bailey's intention for Melbourne to duke it out in traffic, then we will need to wait for our players to put on some beef. Despite a welcome strengthening (embiggening?) of our defence and on-ball brigade, we still look a way off physically competing with the likes of Geelong, StKilda, Sydney.

Good decision making and selecting the best options are products of a better organised team. Better than the opposition, anyway. If Bartram (and Dunn, and Jones, who was mentioned in another thread) are more consistently hitting targets, as they did against Adelaide and Richmond, it's probably because every time they received the ball in the last two games there were good options staring them in the face. You will get that against scrubbers, but as you saw against Hawthorn, a team capable of sustained pressure and closing down space, Melbourne's option-taking was severely hampered and we coughed the ball up looking for unrealistic options.

That we are teaming better, and Bartram, Dunn and Jones are hitting targets, is a good thing. But we need to start doing it against the good teams.

Also, if a player approaches the ball in traffic confident - the operative word here - he can pick it up and give it to someone in a good position, it markedly improves his confidence in his ability to pick the ball up. Call it the Cycle of Confidence. (As opposed to Carl Williams' Cycle of Violence.)

We definitely DO look crisper, and we have played some tidy footy this year, but wait until we play the sides that put a clamp on the opposition (StKilda, Geelong and Sydney) to see how we have progressed.

Having said that, let me now say this: our gameplan seems similar to those three pressure sides, so if it is Curley Bailey's intention for Melbourne to duke it out in traffic, then we will need to wait for our players to put on some beef. Despite a welcome strengthening (embiggening?) of our defence and on-ball brigade, we still look a way off physically competing with the likes of Geelong, StKilda, Sydney.

What a cromulent synopsis.

What a cromulent synopsis.

I forget. Is that good or bad?

Bartram has been a revelation. Good disposal, tough, pace, good decision making. Can it last ? I won't bet my house on it.

Dunn is a potatoe. I wonder how many half hearted efforts and undisciplined free kicks he'll give away this week ? He's been a good moving target and does have ability, but he shits me to tears.

Agree.

He seems to have a one massive cockup per game minimum; be it flinching in a contest, playing on in farcical fashion, or kicking a half-pass-half-shot-on-goal and getting the worst result out of the three - a point. He loses the plot in the heat of the moment and for that reason alone I reckon he's still in a lot of doubt long term.

Bartram has just shown everyone why the FD clearly love him.

A good summary of matters.

Bartram has had a couple of good games. But he hasn't really set the world on fire. Just doing a job. He'll keep his spot while he keeps doing his job.

Aside from some valiant efforts in the ruck, it's been the same Dunn as always. Always looking lost when we don't have the ball, basic errors by hand and foot. Just warming the seat for the likes of Morton, Watts, Jurrah, Wonna, Tapscott at co.

While Batram is playing well, I am not sure who is really challenging him for the small defender role. Bennell is not accountable up back. Strauss is still learning. Cheney lacks pace. Agree with you on Dunn though.

When you start to build a team that improves and you introduce better players, the average players start to look better. Does that mean that they are improving or are we now able to play them in roles that they are better suited to.

Bartram as a shut down back pocket player is looking good, the role suits his ability.

Dunn as a HFF he is better then Dunn as a midfield tagger. I can see Dunn playing a role like Max Rooke/Cambell Brown that defensive forward that can still kick goals and create. One think Dunn has shown is that he can kick goals when played as the 4th or 5th forward option.

Have both these players got futures beyond 2010, Dunn yes, Bartram may depend on the development of Cheney, Strauss and Bennell, Bartram can quickly become the fourth option. Bennell will go back there when Aussie, Jetta, Blease and hopefully Maric are ready.

Good decision making and selecting the best options are products of a better organised team.

Excellent post. Although I prefer it when you're going off your nut on the steps in the members.

Excellent post. Although I prefer it when you're going off your nut on the steps in the members.

Lots of good thoughtful comments on this thread.

I tend to see Dunn as a better long-term option because of his versatility - but he needs to show stronger hands on the lead if he is to challenge the best 22.

Clearly Bartram has a terrific attitude - but I'd be very disappointed if our younger players don't go past him before the season is out. It would be nice if he could continue his career on the Gold Coast

I've consistantly held a grudge against Bartram for the past three odd years. I've always believed we'd NEVER win a premiership with him in the team. He certainly has turned a corner in the past few weeks however, he will need to play like this consistently before I change my mind. I'd be happy to admit I was wrong, but I don't feel the evidence against me is that strong at the moment.

Dunn - meh, he's still an average player for mine. Personally I'd drop him once Watts, Wona, Morton or Jurrah were ready. He's just not in our best 26 players.

Excellent post. Although I prefer it when you're going off your nut on the steps in the members.

It's interesting, one thing Mahoney said at Before the Bounce (that I doubt they would consider confidential) was that if players aren't hitting targets it is not the fault of the player kicking, rather the blame falls on the player who should be getting to the spot the player is kicking it to.

The players are told they should be leading to set areas so that the player with the ball knows they can kick it and someone should be there.

Not exactly groundbreaking, but I don't think that's something people consider when criticizing poor disposal.

Perhaps neither Dunn nor Bartram are going to be in the best 22 in time, but right now they are playing well and have something important to offer, strength and a bit of toe. Dunn looks better than Bate and has it all over Miller and Newton as a tallish forward (even if not KP), Bartram looks at least as good as Bruce.

One sees names like Wona and Jurrah and Maric and Tapscott bandied around as replacing Dunn and Bartram as if there's some sort of obvious natural order to things - but they've all played little or no senior football. Wona had one breakout game and obviously has a troublesome hamstring; Jurrah might be a proppy proposition because of injury and really has to prove himself all over again; Maric hasn't been selected for some reason, not sure why; Tapscott hasn't had a game and is long term injured; Jetta is another one, in my opinion the most likely of all those not yet playing to get one soon; Strauss seems to be headed for defence and might vie with Bartram for a spot; Watts? He'll need a tough body nearby and is no certainty to replace Dunn completely even if he fires.

The point of all this is that these blokes are doing well in an improved and even side; suggesting they'll be passed by when all those virtually untried youngsters are set to go is pure conjecture. There's no reason why Dunn and Bartram shouldn't hold their places if they continue to improve like most of the side has done. Bartram had a great first season and can play; Dunn has been shifted all over the paddock but has some strings to his bow: bulk, strength, pace, kicking.