The dilemma for Brock at Carlton will be the same. If he doesn't get tagged, his footy nous and (generally) good decision-making & play-making will do a lot of damage. Unfortunately, that will also get him tagged again and blunt his effectiveness.

Nobody doubts Brock's ability to be an effective and damaging midfielder, but he needs to demonstrate that he can be that when he's getting tagged. If he can do that, then yes, he will have been a big loss.

At the expense of tagging Judd, Gibbs or Murphy?

I think not.

I make the comment on Mclean re: my thoughts prior to the trade.

I loved him in 2006 and always thought he could reach those heights again. I must say though, in 2009 watching most of our games, just whether he was AFL standard anymore. His kicking was ok to me at times but would then disintegrate to rubbish passes at times also, but most of all I thought his lack of pace made him almost unemployable.

Harsh words I know, but i ask regular supporters who really watch the games if they disagree ?

I assumed he was always going to be with us given his donations(s) to debt demolition and comments in the media etc, but I really doubted his worth this year. It looked like he was gone. He missed a month of pre-season yes, but he was so slow, was that an excuse ??

I honestly think like Hawthorn getting rid of Jonathon Hay and Thompson, Travis and Brock will provide us with so much more.

Time will tell

I make the comment on Mclean re: my thoughts prior to the trade.

I loved him in 2006 and always thought he could reach those heights again. I must say though, in 2009 watching most of our games, just whether he was AFL standard anymore. His kicking was ok to me at times but would then disintegrate to rubbish passes at times also, but most of all I thought his lack of pace made him almost unemployable.

Harsh words I know, but i ask regular supporters who really watch the games if they disagree ?

I assumed he was always going to be with us given his donations(s) to debt demolition and comments in the media etc, but I really doubted his worth this year. It looked like he was gone. He missed a month of pre-season yes, but he was so slow, was that an excuse ??

I honestly think like Hawthorn getting rid of Jonathon Hay and Thompson, Travis and Brock will provide us with so much more.

Time will tell

Correct. His Thoughts were some where else. Time to move on. Pick 11 was a solid business decision. 2-3 years ago the club would not have done it. Gotta spend money to make money....

I honestly think like Hawthorn getting rid of Jonathon Hay and Thompson, Travis and Brock will provide us with so much more.

Time will tell

I really like that notion. Grimes is already coming good and hopefully so will Gysberts.

I'm not sure how you can say this. I reckon as a club we have traded more players for first round picks than just about any other.

Farmer

Woewodin

Thompson

Jolly

Travis

Brock

I know some were forced but no more than Brock. If we hadn't traded Brock he could have gone into the ND with a promise from Carlton that they'd pick him with 11.

Agree.

Farmer, Thompson and Jolly all wanted to leave for a variety of reaons and we sought to get the best deal we could given at the time given the circumstances. It was a case of we either dealt or lost the player for nothing to the PSD.

Travis and Woey were list management decisions and correct ones at the time. The challenge with letting Brock go to the ND is you have no certainty of outcome and its debatable whether Carlton would have chased Luke Ball if they knew he was available. Mind the Blues could use some of the leadership qualiites of Ball at the moment

I make the comment on Mclean re: my thoughts prior to the trade.

I loved him in 2006 and always thought he could reach those heights again. I must say though, in 2009 watching most of our games, just whether he was AFL standard anymore. His kicking was ok to me at times but would then disintegrate to rubbish passes at times also, but most of all I thought his lack of pace made him almost unemployable.

I think this is an accurate assesment of Brock in the last couple of years - especially this year. Also of note, if you watch many of his games this year, he went to ground more often and got beaten or outbustled in 1 on 1 chases for the ball. Getting off the ground to take a mark was a rarity also. It all comes back to 1 of the biggest assets that a footballer should have in their arsenal - power in the legs. Without it you are stuffed.

My assessment of McLean's notable flaws:

Leg Speed 2/10

Kicking (power and accuracy) 4/10

Balance (holding your ground) 4/10

Leap 2/10

Lateral Movement/Evasion 5/10

Now obviously Carlton will give Brock every chance of having the best pre-season possible - for his sake I hope he does. He should be fitter and have less niggles going into the season so should perform better. Having said that I still don't beleive fitness was his main problem this year (it was one problem) but lack of power is his nemesis. Just looking at Brock on the footy field he seems to be reasonably strong upper body (for his size) but nothing out of this world and then it is all let down by the foundations which I don't think he will necessarily improve on. I think he is a little top heavy as a player. He can run all the laps in the world and win all the time trials he wants but this won't translate to power.

I am not going to buy into this Gysberts for McLean stuff, all I will say is that when I first heard that we had been offered pick 11 for McLean I nearly fell off my chair. Carlton were and still are rolling the dice and for us to get pick 11 for a player who has been caught out by the pace and rigours of the modern game is an absolute blessing - not KOTD proportions though. I don't want to sound disrespectful to McLean, I hope he does well at Carlton (with better established mids around him) but that's how I see it.

No DHeads

Johnstone

Carroll

McLean

No DHeads

Johnstone

Carroll

McLean

Sylvia?

Sylvia?

Has sufficiently pulled his head in, I believe...

I'm not sure how you can say this. I reckon as a club we have traded more players for first round picks than just about any other.

Farmer

Woewodin

Thompson

Jolly

Travis

Brock

I know some were forced but no more than Brock. If we hadn't traded Brock he could have gone into the ND with a promise from Carlton that they'd pick him with 11.

Fair call, although Woey i think was for more salary cap reasons. That unexpected Brownlow really didn't help shanes career sadly.

The Mclean call to me came across as even more clean cut. Pick 11 monday morning of draft week Bang. To me i just thought "Wow the MFC are a new club" sentiment to a potential captain/favorite son has to be earnt, it is not a given. It comes purely from on field performance.

That's the Impression of Norm Smith's legacy i got after reading the Biography.

Mclean would have asked well above what the club was prepared to pay if he had gone in the PSD.

And whatever the 'I'm so ruthless' types say, it's really not a good idea to hang on to people who don't want to play for the club. You'd think that would be self-evident.

I wonder how he went at the Blues Cruise?

Meanwhile, just to stir up a hornets nest and see if I can help keep this astonishingly long thread going on such a small start topic -

I would reckon that Gysberts will be a direct replacement for Cameron Bruce. Similar height and build, similar role, similar style, similar skills.

I would reckon that Gysberts will be a direct replacement for Cameron Bruce. Similar height and build, similar role, similar style, similar skills.

Gysberts has much better disposal than Bruce, you'll find.

Gysberts has much better disposal than Bruce, you'll find.

doesn't handball backwards to stationary players that get crunched by a player bearing down on him and can also win a hardball

doesn't handball backwards to stationary players that get crunched by a player bearing down on him and can also win a hardball

I'd also hope Gysberts doesn't blossom into a player who tends to handball to his teammates' feet or kick needlessly to a 50/50 to disadvantage.

Has sufficiently pulled his head in, I believe...

Same was said about Carroll, McLean, and Johnstone over the journey...

Sylvia has played one consistent season.

I reckon it's a constant battle for Colin and those of his ilk, let's hope he can continue to work hard on his issues.

Sylvia looked terrific at training and showed the benefit of a good pre season. Also good to see Rivers, Grimes and Maric taking part in full training.

Gysberts may not be called up to play a senior game next year. He's very thin and may just play in the VFL, along with Gawn and Fitzpatrick. And that's a good thing. We have another 16 players on the senior list who kave played less than 20 games, and all need to be developed. We can afford to be patient with Gysberts, Gawn and Beaker. At least we got a better deal wth Mclean than St Kilda got for Luke Ball.

I'm sorry to see Brock go and i wish him well at Carlton (except for round 11). I think he left because he spent most of 2009 in the forward pocket. Not an ideal position for an slow inside midfielder who can't jump.

Agree.

Farmer, Thompson and Jolly all wanted to leave for a variety of reaons and we sought to get the best deal we could given at the time given the circumstances. It was a case of we either dealt or lost the player for nothing to the PSD.

Travis and Woey were list management decisions and correct ones at the time. The challenge with letting Brock go to the ND is you have no certainty of outcome and its debatable whether Carlton would have chased Luke Ball if they knew he was available. Mind the Blues could use some of the leadership qualiites of Ball at the moment

To be honest, I think history proved the Woewodin trade to be a bad one for the MFC. It's easy to forget but the club suffered horribly after that trade - both on and off field. 2003 was a bloody debacle, particularly given we were minutes away from a preliminary final in 2002 (but for injuries and loads of bad luck). I therefore had high hopes for 2003 - but the club then shot itself by trading Woewodin (which caused all sorts of issues with many players and supporters) and then letting Powell go for nothing. And we were actually in our window at this point in time.

As a result, we had a leadership vacuum for years. Bell hasn't really dominated. Woey enjoyed one excellent season for the Pies, one reasonable one, and was shizen one. Most fundamentally though, the club took a big hit in an intangible, though hugely important, way. And it didn't present a tougher image as a result, just an incompetent one.

Hence, I can't agree with this call.

To be honest, I think history proved the Woewodin trade to be a bad one for the MFC. It's easy to forget but the club suffered horribly after that trade - both on and off field. 2003 was a bloody debacle, particularly given we were minutes away from a preliminary final in 2002 (but for injuries and loads of bad luck). I therefore had high hopes for 2003 - but the club then shot itself by trading Woewodin (which caused all sorts of issues with many players and supporters) and then letting Powell go for nothing. And we were actually in our window at this point in time.

As a result, we had a leadership vacuum for years. Bell hasn't really dominated. Woey enjoyed one excellent season for the Pies, one reasonable one, and was shizen one. Most fundamentally though, the club took a big hit in an intangible, though hugely important, way. And it didn't present a tougher image as a result, just an incompetent one.

Hence, I can't agree with this call.

We had to get rid of Woewodin for salary cap reasons from what i have read and heard from sources close.

if shane had stayed-more players would have been cut.

whether it was the right or wrong call, it had to be done-shanes Brownlow had out priced him.

To be honest, I think history proved the Woewodin trade to be a bad one for the MFC. It's easy to forget but the club suffered horribly after that trade - both on and off field. 2003 was a bloody debacle, particularly given we were minutes away from a preliminary final in 2002 (but for injuries and loads of bad luck). I therefore had high hopes for 2003 - but the club then shot itself by trading Woewodin (which caused all sorts of issues with many players and supporters) and then letting Powell go for nothing. And we were actually in our window at this point in time.

As a result, we had a leadership vacuum for years. Bell hasn't really dominated. Woey enjoyed one excellent season for the Pies, one reasonable one, and was shizen one. Most fundamentally though, the club took a big hit in an intangible, though hugely important, way. And it didn't present a tougher image as a result, just an incompetent one.

Hence, I can't agree with this call.

When we lost the semi final in 2002, Woey was playing a limited role off the half back line. He was not in the key midfield positions in that year. But he was deteriorating a footballer and his returns were along way in the years foillowing the B'low. What made the matter worth was the MFC signed him on a extended back ended contract at the end of 2000 that caused MFC undue grief in 2003 and 2004 for salary cap reasons. It was either get value for Woey now, free up some salary cap or having to delist other required players and then have Woey at the end of 2004 with stuff all market value. We have done that with so many other players to the Clubs peril.

And MFC were not certainly in the flag window at the end of 2002. The Club did not think so and realised that they werent going to progress with the list we had. After the Woey trade, Powell walked on us after MFC offered him 2 years and not 3 years that St Kilda. He had OP and did little to excite at StK. His 2001/2002 was a shadow of his 2000 due to suspension and injury.

Trading Woey was a smart decision. If the Club pandered to the whims of supporters we would not cut anyone and would have given Valenti a 3 year contract. The use of the draft pick 12 (?) was proven to be poor but they are two separate decisions. And Woey did little to suggest at the Pies that MFC had done the wrong thing. His first year was serviceable as 4th up midfielder after Buck, Burns, Licuria (shades of Brock), his next two years were poor.

Same was said about Carroll, McLean, and Johnstone over the journey...

Sylvia has played one consistent season.

I reckon it's a constant battle for Colin and those of his ilk, let's hope he can continue to work hard on his issues.

you must be kidding. Colin Sylvia is currebtly our best player and perhaps no.1 most important for the future behind Morton, Frawley, Watts, Jurrah etc

I have met the guy himself and I assure you he is a very decent individual. The off-field incidents he has beeen mentioned in, one was he was accused of kicking his girlfriend's handbag as it hung from her arm, all charges were dropped. The only other thing peoplle say about this guy was that he may have had some involn=vement in the night that some guy was killed when didak maybe could have prevented it. So, this is an indvidual at the age of 24, and you dare to presume from behind your keyboardIn other words, he was one od a thousand people that Didak saw that night, CS had nothing to do with it whatsoever

Anyway,k my strongly laboured dfifficultly typed point is that Colin Sylvia, amongst our own supporters is unfairly targeted as some sort o party boy recalistrant. Howver, I confess to hyaving no idea whatsoever what really goes on behind doors, if i did, i'm sure you would fine the following:

Males aged 17-27 like to go out with their friends and abuse alcohol.

As scary as you may find it, a hube percentage of these young mean abuse drugs in addition to alcohol. The most common ones are speed and ecstacy. Now, everybody knows this, I can't remember who the hawks player was (TGR will inform( was it Dale Lewis... Swans? Anyway they are all on drugs. Some of you older generation wouldn't belive it but the fcat srae its VERY wisespread in our society. The good news is that for the most part it doesn't turn blokes into violent animals and it apppears to have no long-lasting side effects whatsoever.

Perhaps not physically . . . But Ben Cousins would argue that prolonged drug use has a longer lasting effect.

I'm sure Laurence Angwin and Karl Norman would be in the same boat.

you must be kidding. Colin Sylvia is currebtly our best player and perhaps no.1 most important for the future behind Morton, Frawley, Watts, Jurrah etc

I have met the guy himself and I assure you he is a very decent individual. The off-field incidents he has beeen mentioned in, one was he was accused of kicking his girlfriend's handbag as it hung from her arm, all charges were dropped. The only other thing peoplle say about this guy was that he may have had some involn=vement in the night that some guy was killed when didak maybe could have prevented it. So, this is an indvidual at the age of 24, and you dare to presume from behind your keyboardIn other words, he was one od a thousand people that Didak saw that night, CS had nothing to do with it whatsoever

Anyway,k my strongly laboured dfifficultly typed point is that Colin Sylvia, amongst our own supporters is unfairly targeted as some sort o party boy recalistrant. Howver, I confess to hyaving no idea whatsoever what really goes on behind doors, if i did, i'm sure you would fine the following:

Males aged 17-27 like to go out with their friends and abuse alcohol.

As scary as you may find it, a hube percentage of these young mean abuse drugs in addition to alcohol. The most common ones are speed and ecstacy. Now, everybody knows this, I can't remember who the hawks player was (TGR will inform( was it Dale Lewis... Swans? Anyway they are all on drugs. Some of you older generation wouldn't belive it but the fcat srae its VERY wisespread in our society. The good news is that for the most part it doesn't turn blokes into violent animals and it apppears to have no long-lasting side effects whatsoever.

That is quite a lot of writing.

Colin has had issues in the past, he is currently working through them, let's hope he continues to do so.

To think that he is well, because he is playing well, or whatever your point is, is diminishing the issues that many people deal with, and that Colin is going through.

Oh, and do a spell check, or something...

Think he needs the same advice you gave me rp

I've said it before and I'll take the liberty to express it again.

There is nothing worse in terms of poor form by a poster who tends to sledge "all in sundry" (ie. "everyone") rather than reply directly to those recipients whom it is intended for. In this case Freak, not everyone has talked about Brock in this fashion that you express

Truth.

Good post. People who think Mclean only played one good game ever (Elimination final 06) have rocks in their head. Yes he had a poor season this year, but need we remind you he nearly won the Best and fairest the year before playing only half the games.

Absolutely. The idea that 'the game had passed him by' and so forth was a bit silly, given his strong performances in '08. However, his lack of match fitness meant he looked very, very slow in '09.

I'm sorry to see Brock go and i wish him well at Carlton (except for round 11). I think he left because he spent most of 2009 in the forward pocket. Not an ideal position for an slow inside midfielder who can't jump.

From what I saw McLean certainly didn't spend most of '09 in the FP. In fact, he didn't even spend the majority of his time in the forward line. However, he did say he wasn't particularly happy with his roles, which included more negative midfield assignments.

He was often a good decision maker, but an erratic kick.

I think this might be an astute observation. He'd spot up a free man in the middle of the ground and have his attempt at

'centre-ing' the ball from out wide intercepted a little too often.

How Gysberts goes is irrelevant to this debate. The pick 11 has around a 50% chance of becoming an good player and a small chance of becoming elite and a significant chance of not making it. The footy department said that those sort of odds is good enough for a Mclean trade. Judging their decision depends on how McLean performs and nothing else.

Trading Woey [...] The use of the draft pick 12 (?) was proven to be poor but they are two separate decisions.

The view that the worth of trading a player for a pick(s) should be based on the value of the pick, rather than the particular player chosen, is certainly one I subscribe to.

It's a view I defended many times regarding the TJ/Grimes deal, particularly when Grimes was injured.

I have met the guy himself and I assure you he is a very decent individual. The off-field incidents he has beeen mentioned in, one was he was accused of kicking his girlfriend's handbag as it hung from her arm, all charges were dropped. The only other thing peoplle say about this guy was that he may have had some involn=vement in the night that some guy was killed when didak [...]

Anyway,k my strongly laboured dfifficultly typed point is that Colin Sylvia, amongst our own supporters is unfairly targeted as some sort o party boy recalistrant. Howver, I confess to hyaving no idea whatsoever what really goes on behind doors

There was an article in The Age about Sylvia earlier in the year that certainly indicates he's found himself in more trouble than that caused by the two incidents you've outlined.

Males aged 17-27 like to go out with their friends and abuse alcohol.

As scary as you may find it, a hube percentage of these young mean abuse drugs in addition to alcohol. The most common ones are speed and ecstacy. Now, everybody knows this, I can't remember who the hawks player was (TGR will inform( was it Dale Lewis... Swans? Anyway they are all on drugs. Some of you older generation wouldn't belive it but the fcat srae its VERY wisespread in our society. The good news is that for the most part it doesn't turn blokes into violent animals and it apppears to have no long-lasting side effects whatsoever.

This is full of hyperbolic exaggeration. It may be true of your experiences but anecodotes aren't evidence.

(Yes, Lewis came out re: the prevalence of drugs in the AFL).

Think he needs the same advice you gave me rp

What advice was that?

Always sand with the grain?