Ball's Choice Collingwood or Essendon

[H_T 3,043]

The demonland match review panel would like to warn posters of harsh beer penalties for those who engage with TOX.

Don't forget: Never argue with idiots - they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

GOLD.

Just for the record, I'm not on the demonland match review panel unlike 45hotgod16. But I'm hoping to be drafted with pick 11. My manager has been in consultation with the panel whilst I've been away in Hong Kong, Phuket and Timbucktoo. Unlike Ball, I'm willing and able. Willing to help the panel out by putting my hand up for PSD#1.

[45HG 1,539]

I'm looking at Daw for pick 11 but if he's gone by then you're in HT

[Don24 103]

Through his conduct to date, it appears that Ball is childish and unprofessional.

Ball may think the Dees are a mile off a flag (perhaps we are), but it's clear to most rational observers that Ball, through his conduct to date, is not yet wise beyond his years. He doesn't appear to have tested the waters at all, and his conduct to date suggests that he's incapable of adopting a measured, considered approach, which would involve hearing and assessing what the respective clubs actually have to say.

I've seen graduates in the professions and the business world (similar age) who seemingly demonstrate far greater maturity and level-headedness than Ball.

He may be a great leader of 18 year olds at a footy club, but he appears to be a mile off the pace in terms of the degree of professionalism required in the professional or business world.

Still seems to be a boy.

And for a St Kilda player or fan to criticise the MFC about not having a "winning ethos/culture" is laughable in the extreme.

Still seems to be a boy? What basis are you making these judgments? Having spoken very very little in the media about this, no one really knows what has gone on in Balls decision making process. We are just guessing from the end result.

As someone who knows Ball i can assure you he is an extremely mature and professional person, in general let alone for his age. Let's talk about professionalism in the business world that you seem to know about. Is judging a person or a situation, with no knowledge of the facts or the people involved, and making negative statements about someone in a public environment professional? No, it just shows your lack of professionalism in that you have let your support the dees and your feelings of being let down by not getting Ball cloud making a rational evaluation of events.

Back to the drawing board mate, you have no idea...

[H_T 3,043]

I'm looking at Daw for pick 11 but if he's gone by then you're in HT

How I wish you could see a couple minutes of you tube highlights of me...

I'm good on the periphery! :D

[45HG 1,539]

Man youse wud not be az gud az daw...doood i sawd hutchie ( ) show da hilites on my tv and he looks fuli sik!!!111!!

For the record everyone is on the panel

[Dee Fan 3,247]

That's a weak excuse. In a period of restricted trade/drafting, Melbourne have had access to 5 years of drafts with Priority Picks, which is an AFL record. No other club has had a "free" hit like this in the draft period.

Facilities don't really have an impact. In the 90's, North, a club with less resources than Melbourne facility wise managed to win 2 flags training out of a granny house gym.

Collingwood only left Victoria Park in 2005. I suggest that the facilities at the Junction Oval (an oval I've played a number of VAFA games on) were superior to Victoria Park. Prior to 1987, every club played each other twice, so there goes your facilities & draw theory.

History didn't start 51 years ago, over a much shorter journey, we've been quite a more successful club than yours with less resources.

It's taken you that long to come up with this garbage?

Fraser, Pendelbury and Thomas were all pretty high draft picks IIRC.

Whatever facilities North had they would have been superior to what Melbourne has had to endure and at least they, like Collingwood, had their own home ground to train on. Our boys have had to wait until the start of each week to learn where they would be training that week and most there would be several different venues each week, these usually consist of School ovals. We have had to share the Junction Oval with cricket so we couldn't put the Posts up or use the centre until cricket finished. You consider that appropriate do you?

We have had a splintered community and several very ordinary boards and have suffered because of it but this is not about us it's about your club, the greatest chokers in any sport in the World, hence my comment the most spectacular failures in history.

Perhaps now they have lost Lexus as a major sponsor they should approach the grocery chain NQR, I'm sure they would find they have a lot in common.

[Sir Why You Little 36,954]

History didn't start 51 years ago, over a much shorter journey, we've been quite a more successful club than yours with less resources.

When have Collingwood have worse facilities & resources than Melbourne in the "recent history" I am all ears on that one.

[hoopla 418]

[ Quote Don 24

Still seems to be a boy? What basis are you making these judgments? Having spoken very very little in the media about this, no one really knows what has gone on in Balls decision making process. We are just guessing from the end result.

As someone who knows Ball i can assure you he is an extremely mature and professional person, in general let alone for his age. Let's talk about professionalism in the business world that you seem to know about. Is judging a person or a situation, with no knowledge of the facts or the people involved, and making negative statements about someone in a public environment professional? No, it just shows your lack of professionalism in that you have let your support the dees and your feelings of being let down by not getting Ball cloud making a rational evaluation of events.

Back to the drawing board mate, you have no idea...]

Got to say that I agree with you

Clearly it is a complex issue

At the end of the day I don't think the whole situation reflects well on Ross Lyon. He narrowly lost a Grand Final after ignoring Max Hudgton in favour of Raph Clarke - and leaving one of his key clearance players ( Ball) on the bench for most of the second half. Now he has effectively pushed a popular former captain out the door without compensation

If anything happens to Lenny Hayes, St Kilda will be screaming for Luke Ball...... and Ross Lyon's philosophies will come under the microscope.

Edited November 16, 2009 by hoopla

[Ron Burgundy 8,584]

Still seems to be a boy? What basis are you making these judgments? Having spoken very very little in the media about this, no one really knows what has gone on in Balls decision making process. We are just guessing from the end result.

As someone who knows Ball i can assure you he is an extremely mature and professional person, in general let alone for his age. Let's talk about professionalism in the business world that you seem to know about. Is judging a person or a situation, with no knowledge of the facts or the people involved, and making negative statements about someone in a public environment professional? No, it just shows your lack of professionalism in that you have let your support the dees and your feelings of being let down by not getting Ball cloud making a rational evaluation of events.

Back to the drawing board mate, you have no idea...

Don24, unlike you, my view is based on facts and the way in which this issue has unfolded (to date).

The facts are as follows (albeit some only as reported):

1. Ball has said he will not play at St Kilda next year.

2. Ball has indicated that he wishes to play AFL next year.

3. To do so, Ball needs to be recruited by an AFL club (other than St Kilda).

4. There are rules which govern the recruitment of players to AFL clubs.

5. The MFC is the one club in the AFL that holds ALL the cards in relation to this year's recruitment process. It has picks 1 & 2 in the national draft and pick 1 in the PSD. It also has room in the cap to meet his demands, and is conveniently located in Melbourne.

6. Despite this, from ALL reports, Ball is unwilling to genuinely engage with the MFC.

7. Ball's conduct in entering the national draft reinforces this, since, if he had any legitimate interest in the MFC, he would have entered the PSD (as this course would ensure the MFC retained its high draft picks for potential future stars).

I regard the above as facts. You may not - I dare say, virtually every other reasonable observer in the AFL community would.

Notwithstanding this, people such as yourself argue that you know Luke Ball and that he is "a leader, a true professional, a fine young man" etc ...

As I said, I don't know him. My view is entirely based on the above factors. It is not founded in any emotion - in fact, I don't believe I could ever be star struck by any 25 year old, let alone Luke Ball.

That being said, I was initially strongly of the view that the MFC should recruit him. This was principally based on the view of many (such as yourself) that he was "a leader, a true professional, a fine young man" etc. As I want this club to succeed, I think those qualities would really assist us.

His conduct to date suggests otherwise. I am a rationalist. I don't want this club recruiting a bloke based on the cliched views of others if the underlying facts indicate otherwise.

In my observation, he's a long way off being a true professional and, unlike you, my view is based on a proper consideration of the above facts. However, it's possible that, if recruited by the MFC, these "prefessional" qualities may emerge. I would sincerely hope so, because that's the only reason he'd be recruited by this club - he's not otherwise the gun player he may think he is. Ross Lyon (and the Saints football dept) seem to share that view.

As an aside, in any field of endeavour - but particularly something as tight as the AFL (where there are only 16 clubs), I would've thought basic principles of integrity and respect would've dictated that he would think it approriate to at least meet with the MFC, rather than seemingly avoiding all expressions of interest altogether.

So, in short, get your head out of the sand, Don24. I don't want anyone bagging this club as unprofessional, particularly if their own conduct is, objectively, a mile off the pace.

[Fat Tony 5,217]

I don't understand why people care what Ball or his manager says or wants. It is meaningless. We cannot let players / managers walk over us. It damages our reputation. We have to be ruthless.

We should take him at #18 if we think he is the best available / best value player. This decision should take into account his age, injuries and playing ability, as well as who else is left in the draft. Period.

[hoopla 418]

Don24, unlike you, my view is based on facts and the way in which this issue has unfolded (to date).

6. Despite this, from ALL reports, Ball is unwilling to genuinely engage with the MFC.

7. Ball's conduct in entering the national draft reinforces this, since, if he had any legitimate interest in the MFC, he would have entered the PSD (as this course would ensure the MFC retained its high draft picks for potential future stars).

So, in short, get your head out of the sand, Don24. I don't want anyone bagging this club as unprofessional, particularly if their own conduct is, objectively, a mile off the pace.

Ball is entitled to have a preference.

Whether or not he has abruptly or politely spoken with Melbourne - and whether or not his manager has properly conveyed his sentiments- is pure speculation.

For all we know he might be worried that he won't be able to give of his best if he isn't confronted with the immediate challenge of playing finals footy .He might have decided that it is less offensive to clubs down the ladder to keep his distance than it is to meet with them when his heart wants to be somewhere else. His approach may be utterly professional - and his motives may be entirely honourable.

We should not take offence. At the end of the day it is his loss.

[Sir Why You Little 36,954]

I don't understand why people care what Ball or his manager says or wants. It is meaningless. We cannot let players / managers walk over us. It damages our reputation. We have to be ruthless.

We should take him at #18 if we think he is the best available / best value player. This decision should take into account his age, injuries and playing ability, as well as who else is left in the draft. Period.

Absolutely Correct, This club should never be walked over by any player.opposition club or Media outlet.

We should be the ones making the moves, & others will Follow..

What is the name of our City??..........and don't forget it.

[titan_uranus 24,965]

Nathan Brown to Richmond perhaps?

The Bulldogs weren't a successful team when he left (end of 2003).

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

I don't understand why people care what Ball or his manager says or wants. It is meaningless. We cannot let players / managers walk over us. It damages our reputation. We have to be ruthless.

We should take him at #18 if we think he is the best available / best value player. This decision should take into account his age, injuries and playing ability, as well as who else is left in the draft. Period.

We can be ruthless but we dont have to be stupid in the process. No one is walking over us at all.

I understand taking him at # 18 as the best available. But the decision should also take into account the fact he has not chosen to speak with us. Given CC and DB are overseas for the next 10 days gives me the indication that they have already spoken with potential players they are actually considering drafting. And Ball is not one of them.

Ball is entitled to have a preference.

Whether or not he has abruptly or politely spoken with Melbourne - and whether or not his manager has properly conveyed his sentiments- is pure speculation.

For all we know he might be worried that he won't be able to give of his best if he isn't confronted with the immediate challenge of playing finals footy .He might have decided that it is less offensive to clubs down the ladder to keep his distance than it is to meet with them when his heart wants to be somewhere else. His approach may be utterly professional - and his motives may be entirely honourable.

We should not take offence. At the end of the day it is his loss.

Fair summary of events.

[Redleg 40,811]

The Bulldogs weren't a successful team when he left (end of 2003).

Must say I have a chuckle each time I see your name.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

I would agree, except in football I'm not sure this happens. Can you think of someone who purposely left a successful club and went to an unsuccessful one? Most AFL footballers have one dream, and that is to win a premiership.

Bill Barrot in the famous Barrott- Stewart swap in the 1970s.

Peter Moore in the 80s went from a Club that played in 4 losing GFs ( ) to MFC that had not been in a GF for 20 years ( ).

Jason Akermanis and Mal Michael might also be in the picture as well. Blumfield from Essendon? Would Darren Jolly qualify this year? B)

There are probably others as well

[Don24 103]

Don24, unlike you, my view is based on facts and the way in which this issue has unfolded (to date).

The facts are as follows (albeit some only as reported):

1. Ball has said he will not play at St Kilda next year.

2. Ball has indicated that he wishes to play AFL next year.

3. To do so, Ball needs to be recruited by an AFL club (other than St Kilda).

4. There are rules which govern the recruitment of players to AFL clubs.

5. The MFC is the one club in the AFL that holds ALL the cards in relation to this year's recruitment process. It has picks 1 & 2 in the national draft and pick 1 in the PSD. It also has room in the cap to meet his demands, and is conveniently located in Melbourne.

6. Despite this, from ALL reports, Ball is unwilling to genuinely engage with the MFC.

7. Ball's conduct in entering the national draft reinforces this, since, if he had any legitimate interest in the MFC, he would have entered the PSD (as this course would ensure the MFC retained its high draft picks for potential future stars).

I regard the above as facts. You may not - I dare say, virtually every other reasonable observer in the AFL community would.

Notwithstanding this, people such as yourself argue that you know Luke Ball and that he is "a leader, a true professional, a fine young man" etc ...

As I said, I don't know him. My view is entirely based on the above factors. It is not founded in any emotion - in fact, I don't believe I could ever be star struck by any 25 year old, let alone Luke Ball.

That being said, I was initially strongly of the view that the MFC should recruit him. This was principally based on the view of many (such as yourself) that he was "a leader, a true professional, a fine young man" etc. As I want this club to succeed, I think those qualities would really assist us.

His conduct to date suggests otherwise. I am a rationalist. I don't want this club recruiting a bloke based on the cliched views of others if the underlying facts indicate otherwise.

In my observation, he's a long way off being a true professional and, unlike you, my view is based on a proper consideration of the above facts. However, it's possible that, if recruited by the MFC, these "prefessional" qualities may emerge. I would sincerely hope so, because that's the only reason he'd be recruited by this club - he's not otherwise the gun player he may think he is. Ross Lyon (and the Saints football dept) seem to share that view.

As an aside, in any field of endeavour - but particularly something as tight as the AFL (where there are only 16 clubs), I would've thought basic principles of integrity and respect would've dictated that he would think it approriate to at least meet with the MFC, rather than seemingly avoiding all expressions of interest altogether.

So, in short, get your head out of the sand, Don24. I don't want anyone bagging this club as unprofessional, particularly if their own conduct is, objectively, a mile off the pace.

Ha ha this is funny. All those facts you have listed are obvious. We all know he has left saints and entered the draft ect. BUT What we do NOT know, what i was alluding to in my previous post which you are struggling to wrap your head around is that we do not know his reasons for leaving the saints, we do not know why he does not want to come to Melbourne and we do not know what factors had the greatest influenced in his decision. You just stating the outcome and implying you know the reasons why he made the decisions he has made.

The real funny part though, is that you say his "conduct" has shown that he is not a "leader, professional or a fine young man". This conduct you talk about and have listed above involves wanting to leave the saints and join another club, and no wanting to play for us. He has no obligation to play for us or to talk to us just because we have the top pick. To think that way is very naive. He has no obligation to engage with the MFC, you just wanted him to because you thought he would be a great recruit. Does the fact that it appears Bradshaw and McPhee have not talked to us mean they are not professional or fine men? No because you talk to the clubs you want to play for. Its pretty simple and logical. For whatever reasons he does not want to play for us.

By your own admission Ross Lyon has a few questions to answer for his role in this. We do not know what happened with him and Ball last year and most people were stunned when ball was dropped so its impossible to judge him for leaving the saints without knowing the facts surrounding his fall in the pecking order from there.

And to think he has had no contact with us and snubbed us is again foolish. He has hired management which are paid to do this very job. And in doing this job his manager has had many discussions with Melbourne as indicated by Baily in discussing his dealings with Balls manager. So i really don't understand how you can say his behaviour has show his lack of leadership and professionalism.

"I don't want anyone bagging this club as unprofessional, particularly if their own conduct is, objectively, a mile off the pace".

And are you saying Ball called us unprofessional? If so when and where did he say this?

I am glad people are agreeing with me and ignoring your senseless posts. So keep talking your nonsense, with my head in the sand i can't hear you anyway!

[Darren Cuthbertson 0]

[ Quote Don 24

Still seems to be a boy? What basis are you making these judgments? Having spoken very very little in the media about this, no one really knows what has gone on in Balls decision making process. We are just guessing from the end result.

As someone who knows Ball i can assure you he is an extremely mature and professional person, in general let alone for his age. Let's talk about professionalism in the business world that you seem to know about. Is judging a person or a situation, with no knowledge of the facts or the people involved, and making negative statements about someone in a public environment professional? No, it just shows your lack of professionalism in that you have let your support the dees and your feelings of being let down by not getting Ball cloud making a rational evaluation of events.

Back to the drawing board mate, you have no idea...]

Got to say that I agree with you

Clearly it is a complex issue

At the end of the day I don't think the whole situation reflects well on Ross Lyon. He narrowly lost a Grand Final after ignoring Max Hudgton in favour of Raph Clarke - and leaving one of his key clearance players ( Ball) on the bench for most of the second half. Now he has effectively pushed a popular former captain out the door without compensation

If anything happens to Lenny Hayes, St Kilda will be screaming for Luke Ball...... and Ross Lyon's philosophies will come under the microscope.

Luke Ball is limited -in a bang for buck scenario Valenti offers more for a club than Luke Ball. Raph Clarke is a dud yes but Zac Dawson played over Hudgton. It was Zac that lost the game for St Kilda as his error in the Hawkins point/goal was the trigger for Geelong to get back into it. Raph Clarke is hopefully played away from bad areas of the ground -where his mistakes don't cost. Don't worry about Ross Lyon, he is a premiership coach.

[titan_uranus 24,965]

Must say I have a chuckle each time I see your name.

I hope that's a good thing...

Bill Barrot in the famous Barrott- Stewart swap in the 1970s.

Peter Moore in the 80s went from a Club that played in 4 losing GFs ( ) to MFC that had not been in a GF for 20 years ( ).

Jason Akermanis and Mal Michael might also be in the picture as well. Blumfield from Essendon? Would Darren Jolly qualify this year? B)

There are probably others as well

I'm too young to even know who Bill Barrot and Peter Moore are.

But Akermanis, Michael, and Jolly all have the same thing in common. They had all won a premiership before they moved. Ball has not.

[Redleg 40,811]

I hope that's a good thing...

It is.

[Ron Burgundy 8,584]

Ha ha this is funny. All those facts you have listed are obvious. We all know he has left saints and entered the draft ect. BUT What we do NOT know, what i was alluding to in my previous post which you are struggling to wrap your head around is that we do not know his reasons for leaving the saints, we do not know why he does not want to come to Melbourne and we do not know what factors had the greatest influenced in his decision. You just stating the outcome and implying you know the reasons why he made the decisions he has made.

The real funny part though, is that you say his "conduct" has shown that he is not a "leader, professional or a fine young man". This conduct you talk about and have listed above involves wanting to leave the saints and join another club, and no wanting to play for us. He has no obligation to play for us or to talk to us just because we have the top pick. To think that way is very naive. He has no obligation to engage with the MFC, you just wanted him to because you thought he would be a great recruit. Does the fact that it appears Bradshaw and McPhee have not talked to us mean they are not professional or fine men? No because you talk to the clubs you want to play for. Its pretty simple and logical. For whatever reasons he does not want to play for us.

By your own admission Ross Lyon has a few questions to answer for his role in this. We do not know what happened with him and Ball last year and most people were stunned when ball was dropped so its impossible to judge him for leaving the saints without knowing the facts surrounding his fall in the pecking order from there.

And to think he has had no contact with us and snubbed us is again foolish. He has hired management which are paid to do this very job. And in doing this job his manager has had many discussions with Melbourne as indicated by Baily in discussing his dealings with Balls manager. So i really don't understand how you can say his behaviour has show his lack of leadership and professionalism.

"I don't want anyone bagging this club as unprofessional, particularly if their own conduct is, objectively, a mile off the pace".

And are you saying Ball called us unprofessional? If so when and where did he say this?

I am glad people are agreeing with me and ignoring your senseless posts. So keep talking your nonsense, with my head in the sand i can't hear you anyway!

Yet more dribble.

[beelzebub 23,313]

1 though 7 plus rest.....

...........

............

I tend to side very much with this kind of outlook. Yes.. some of it might be "obvious" ..but only in as much as we can all see it. This doesnt for mine detract at all from its value when deliberating.

Actions often speak louder than words and in the absence of any ( words) it forms all the basis of a judgement.

In simplistic terms..if as some continue to support , there was a notion that Ball might be willing to play for us is drafted then why not open talks etc and just see for himself who and what we are. By doing none of this he is denouncing us as personas non gratis ( akin to footy rubbish ). He must be..as all his decision is based upon an outside view and some input from his manager. Connors will NOT be privy to all things Melbourne. I seriously wonder about the managers motives in all of this...other than money of course

Like Ron I was rather pro Ball recruitment to start but have come all but 180 since.

If I was hiring and some bloke was acting the diva in Balls manner id give him a wide berth. Id rather someone demonstating more interest in the position who had all the hallmarks of potential than even an experienced candidate but one who showed absolutely no real interest in the product.

Footy is not a normal work environment... you cant press gang and expect loyalty and commitment let alone 110% effort.

Let this Ball bounce past

[Don24 103]

Yet more dribble.

Ha ha and i rest my case. Thats all you can say? Clearly you are embarassed and are now aware of what rubbish you were writing.

But can you answer my question please...if you have one..

"I don't want anyone bagging this club as unprofessional, particularly if their own conduct is, objectively, a mile off the pace".

And are you saying Ball called us unprofessional? If so when and where did he say this?

[loges 6,767]

Yet more dribble.

Don't really care if we draft him or not, happy to leave that to the football department, however the issue I have with him is this. Either he or his manager is putting it out there that if not picked up by a prefered club he may pack his bags and have 12 months off. To my mind this is draft tampering

[H_T 3,043]

Don't really care if we draft him or not, happy to leave that to the football department, however the issue I have with him is this. Either he or his manager is putting it out there that if not picked up by a prefered club he may pack his bags and have 12 months off. To my mind this is draft tampering

Some team will call his bluff, if Brad Scott (North Melbourne) has the same opinion as Vossy, Ball could end up there (pick 21), that is if the Dees (pick 18) don't have a say. Otherwise he could well get to one of his choices in Essendon. Can't imagine 12 months off being a good option for him, apart from resting his groin.

I will raise an eyebrow or two , if he gets taken at pick 10 or 11.