Youngest Teams

[heartbeatstrue 57]

We've heard a lot about Hawthorn having the 3rd youngest side at the moment. So, who are the first & second youngest? I think I heard somewhere that Melbourne was one of the youngest, and that was before the recent retirements. Anybody know where we sit?

[deeflog 679]

I have a feeling that WCE are the youngest and then us and then the hawks

[heartbeatstrue 57]

And where are Geelong?

[deeflog 679]

I don't know where they sit on the age ladder, but they are deceptively old...Milburn 32, Scarlett 30, Harley 30, Ottens, mooney and wojinski getting on

[heartbeatstrue 57]

Yeah you're right about Milburn, I was surprised to see him pop up for a goal. He's almost in the Crawford bracket.

So here's a project for anyone with the inclination. Taking Geelong where they are now, most dominant side of '08 but minus the premiership, what should they do to 1) continue to be a dominant force over the next 3 years say, and 2) improve so if they get to the GF next year they do actually win it?

I was thinking about this even before they lost on Saturday. It's not an easy task. With the ages of some of their champions, injury and fitness are going to take increasing tolls. But cutting them loose wouldn't be easy either and I can imagine plenty of their fans getting very upset at trading any of those ageing champions.

But definitely they should be getting into this year's draft as much as possible and the only way I can see that is by giving up some pretty useful (albeit ageing) players.

Tough calls, I think MFC is in some ways in an easier position in the coming month :D

[deanox 9,902]

this year should have been geelongs in my opinion. i thought we'd see hawthorn not quite get close enough, and then have a period of domination.

hawthorns players over 27 :

Crawford, Shane (V+) 34yr

Dew, Stuart _______ 29yr 1mth

Croad, Trent _______ 28yr 6mth

Jacobs, Danny ______ 28yr 3mth

Bateman, Chance ____ 27yr 3mth

geelongs over 27s:

Milburn, Darren (V+) __31yr 5mth

Harley, Tom ________ 30yr 2mth

Scarlett, Matthew ____ 29yr 3mth

Mooney, Cameron ___ 29yr

Ottens, Brad _______ 28yr 8mth

Wojcinski, David ___ 28yr

Ling, Cameron _____ 27yr 7mth

Enright, Corey _____ 27yr

crawford aside, the geelong players seem just that bit older, 30 31, while hawthorn is 28-29.

here is our list of the same group, red has retired this year:

Neitz, David (V+) _____33yr 8mth

McDonald, James _____31yr 11mth

White, Jeff (V) _______31yr 7mth

Holland, Ben ________31yr 4mth

Yze, Adem (V+) ______31yr

Robertson, Russell _____ 29yr 10mth

Bruce, Cameron _______28yr 11mth

Whelan, Matthew _____ 28yr 10mth

Carroll, Nathan ______ 27yr 11mth

Green, Brad ________ 27yr 6mth

Wheatley, Paul ______ 27yr 5mth

after that i think our oldest is davey at around 25 and a few months. there is a full 2 years between that group and our next oldest...thats the reason that group wont help us with our next flag. we need to draft well until the davey group in 29 and we have a good group of players in each age group.

[H_T 3,043]

Very good stats deanox. Bar Shane Crawford, Stuart Dew. Hawthorn have alot more upside than Geelong IMO (can't believe I just said that because Geelong are awesome).

Having said that, Geelong will be there next season. IMO Geelong need Tom Hawkins as their focal point in front of goals next season, which I'm sure Bomber will do. It will ensure more versatility.

You're quite right, it should have been Geelong's this year. But, you have to perform on the day in the Grand Final to win it, regardless of what you have done the rest of the season. Those missed shots cost them and gave the Hawks the sniff they needed to go on and win after halftime.

[davey_magik 1]

At the start of next year I'd dare say we'd have the youngest list in the comp considering the retirements and the older players that are leaving.

You can add Carroll to the 'Out' list, there's no way he'll be at the club next year.

[heartbeatstrue 57]

Interesting comments on Geelong's list, thanks. I don't doubt Geelong will be top 4 next year, but from there it's downhill as far as I can see, unless they do something now to stop that.

Boy it's hard to find statistics on list ages. And to get them all on the same basis. For instance, some are for the whole list and at the start of the pre-season:

Feb '08

Carlton has the youngest list, with an average age of 22.8 years at the start of the pre-season campaign.

Richmond has an average age of 23.1

Sydney has average age of 24.7

St Kilda has average age of 24.7

Fremantle has the oldest playing list in the competition with an average age of 25

Of course, things change with time. As well as players getting older, some retire. Here's the stat for Hawthorn, but it's the average age of the team on Saturday 27th September:

If Hawthorn prevails in the AFL grand final today it will become the youngest premiership-winning team in at least a decade and possibly history. At an average age of 24 years and 212 days, per man the Hawks are almost two and a half years younger than the title-winning Port Adelaide team of 2004.

If anyone knows where to find the stats for the whole 16 teams, for the one point in time, let's know. I'm only guessing, but it would seem Carlton are the youngest but with recent MFC retirements, we may be giving them a shake. Someone mentioned WC, are they really that young?

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

I was barracking against the Hawks last week for a simple reason. They're going to be thereabouts for the next 5 years if they can keep their midfield and their KP players floating around. They've got a proven guy in Boyle and another up and coming star in Thorp who can take over from Croad, who didn't even play.

The Hawks will likely win about 3 flags MINIMUM with their core...

And the worst part is that we're miles off being like them, even in the recruiting stakes...

They traded Rawlings and Hay for very high picks, and both were duds.

They only had one early-pick disaster in Brennan (pick 8).

They had hugely fortunate luck in their trades. Even the ones they mooted but couldn't get over the line worked in their favour (The great Ferguson trade debacle).

And they recruited the only two good KP players in about 3-5 years of the draft, basically having a monopoly for the next few years...

And as for us, we have a couple of good picks in Sylvia and McLean who are both injury prone, one so bad it's doubtful he'll ever scale the heights we need him to.

We got Morton, who is good but is no CHF.

We're nowhere near having the 22 they have, and they're nearly as young as us. They only really bottomed out for 3 years. I can't see us getting up there as far as hem with the draft concessions...

We're going to win hardly any matches against them over the next 5-8 years...

[Rogue 585]

The list ages aren't much different from Club to Club, and change markedly from year to year.

It's of more interest to look at the core of each side, and evaluate where they're at in their footy career, IMO.

In '08, the Dees had a very young 22, with many of our older players fringe (Holland, Yze, and even White) or finished (Neitz).

Other older guys weren't part of our core (ie. Whelan, McDonald in his modified role) or missed substantial footy (Robertson).

The Hawks will likely win about 3 flags MINIMUM with their core...

We're going to win hardly any matches against them over the next 5-8 years...

You've got to be kidding.

I thought the first call was a fairly extravagant one ('minimum'?), but the second line - wow.

Very good stats deanox. Bar Shane Crawford, Stuart Dew. Hawthorn have alot more upside than Geelong IMO (can't believe I just said that because Geelong are awesome).

Egan will be a handy 'recruit' - he seems to be the forgotten man down at Geelong.

[Geddy Lee 582]

I was barracking against the Hawks last week for a simple reason. They're going to be thereabouts for the next 5 years if they can keep their midfield and their KP players floating around. They've got a proven guy in Boyle and another up and coming star in Thorp who can take over from Croad, who didn't even play.

The Hawks will likely win about 3 flags MINIMUM with their core...

And the worst part is that we're miles off being like them, even in the recruiting stakes...

They traded Rawlings and Hay for very high picks, and both were duds.

They only had one early-pick disaster in Brennan (pick 8).

They had hugely fortunate luck in their trades. Even the ones they mooted but couldn't get over the line worked in their favour (The great Ferguson trade debacle).

And they recruited the only two good KP players in about 3-5 years of the draft, basically having a monopoly for the next few years...

And as for us, we have a couple of good picks in Sylvia and McLean who are both injury prone, one so bad it's doubtful he'll ever scale the heights we need him to.

We got Morton, who is good but is no CHF.

We're nowhere near having the 22 they have, and they're nearly as young as us. They only really bottomed out for 3 years. I can't see us getting up there as far as hem with the draft concessions...

We're going to win hardly any matches against them over the next 5-8 years...

Go outside. Take a deep breath.

Hawthorn's dynasty will be about as long as Geelong's. Calm the **** down.

[praha 11,236]

Neitz, David (V+) _____33yr 8mth

McDonald, James _____31yr 11mth

White, Jeff (V) _______31yr 7mth

Holland, Ben ________31yr 4mth

Yze, Adem (V+) ______31yr

Robertson, Russell _____ 29yr 10mth

Bruce, Cameron _______28yr 11mth

Whelan, Matthew _____ 28yr 10mth

Carroll, Nathan ______ 27yr 11mth

Green, Brad ________ 27yr 6mth

Wheatley, Paul ______ 27yr 5mth

after that i think our oldest is davey at around 25 and a few months. there is a full 2 years between that group and our next oldest...thats the reason that group wont help us with our next flag. we need to draft well until the davey group in 29 and we have a good group of players in each age group.

Yep, pretty much. Davey should be 28-30 by the time we're pushing for a flag (hopefully).

Expect Carroll to be let go at seasons end.

Anyway, Collingwood have the leagues youngest list, which will get even younger with quite a few older, experienced players leaving.

[heartbeatstrue 57]

Anyway, Collingwood have the leagues youngest list, which will get even younger with quite a few older, experienced players leaving.

So far, for the "league's youngest list" we've got WCE, Carrrlton, MFC and now Collingwood. Don't you just love statistics??? :D

[Little Goffy 14,468]

It's worth noting that of our older players, more than half didn't make much of a contribution this year, through form or injury.

The actual team that took the field was crazy young/inexperienced.

It particularly stands out when you look at the number of games played this year by players who started the year with less than ten games.

You can start that off with our entire set of tall defenders!

Last year, we were one of the oldest teams.

This year, we're about average.

Next year, we'll be amongst the youngest.

By the time retirements and delistings are announed at the end of 2009, we'll very likely be the youngest (Robbo, McDonald, Bruce, Wheatley, Whelan all possible departures, and Carroll definately by then, if not this year)

So we're getting younger all the time.

It was interesting to see that list of Geelong players, I didn't realise how many of their core group were starting to get on a bit.

[Yencks 8]

i think against brissy we fielded at that point the team with youngest ave. age in the 22

cos we have all those old players who werent playing that day

the oldest was macca

and cale wasnt even playing/or maric

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

I thought the first call was a fairly extravagant one ('minimum'?), but the second line - wow.

The Hawks have a bunch of young kids that just won a flag over the best side I've seen in years. Probably a better side than the Lions in their heyday.

It's simple really. The Cats will come back to the pack after next year, and the Hawks will retain the players that got them there this year while watching them mature and come into their best years as League footballers. They haven't even hit their prime yet and they beat a side that was just about as dominant as the Bombers of 2000.

What happened the last time an up-and-coming superpower beat a dominant reigning premier? They went on to win, count 'em, 3 flags in a row. The Lions, just like the Hawks, had benefitted greatly from the draft and it showed.

As for the second part. How many games did we win against the great teams in their heydays? We're the [censored] to sides who don't even make the 8, let alone sides that make the Grand Final. The only big teams we won a handful of games against were the Lions when we played only a few Gabba games and won a couple, an the Saints who we had a hoodoo over.

Go outside. Take a deep breath.

Hawthorn's dynasty will be about as long as Geelong's. Calm the **** down.

Howbout you shut your ****ing cakehole? Don't have anything constructive to say? Then why say anything?

The Hawks are a young side... like us, and like WC... only they're not fighting for the number 1 pick... They're fighting for, and winning flags...

Face it: They have all the ingredients you would want. A good coach, unified board and off-field financial strength, a strong spine and midfield brigade... strong and DEEP list... and what's more they have more upside than just about anyone.

They'll get found out next year, as they're young and will probably suffer a hangover... but over the journey, very few of their stars are retiring over the next few years. Crawford and Dew are old and are not starring anymore anyway.

The only way I can see them falling off is if they have a WC-like exodus. If Franklin's head gets too big, their salary-cap gets stretched, someone in the side breaks the law... If they suddenly lose their Judds, Gardiners, Cousins etc etc then yes, they'll fall back to the pack... But otherwise, I reckon the Hawks will be the dominant side of the next 5 years.

[heartbeatstrue 57]

The Hawks have a bunch of young kids that just won a flag over the best side I've seen in years. Probably a better side than the Lions in their heyday.

It's simple really. The Cats will come back to the pack after next year, and the Hawks will retain the players that got them there this year while watching them mature and come into their best years as League footballers. They haven't even hit their prime yet and they beat a side that was just about as dominant as the Bombers of 2000.

What happened the last time an up-and-coming superpower beat a dominant reigning premier? They went on to win, count 'em, 3 flags in a row. The Lions, just like the Hawks, had benefitted greatly from the draft and it showed.

...

The Hawks are a young side... like us, and like WC... only they're not fighting for the number 1 pick... They're fighting for, and winning flags...

Face it: They have all the ingredients you would want. A good coach, unified board and off-field financial strength, a strong spine and midfield brigade... strong and DEEP list... and what's more they have more upside than just about anyone.

They'll get found out next year, as they're young and will probably suffer a hangover... but over the journey, very few of their stars are retiring over the next few years. Crawford and Dew are old and are not starring anymore anyway.

The only way I can see them falling off is if they have a WC-like exodus. If Franklin's head gets too big, their salary-cap gets stretched, someone in the side breaks the law... If they suddenly lose their Judds, Gardiners, Cousins etc etc then yes, they'll fall back to the pack... But otherwise, I reckon the Hawks will be the dominant side of the next 5 years.

Thanks DD, that's about the best assessment I've read of the Cats, Hawks and us, now and over the next 4 or 5 years. You've said what's been rattling around in my brain since Saturday. The Cats have been awesomely dominant, they will inevitably be on the way down after next year, and the future of Hawthorn for all the reasons you state is equally awesome. Frighteningly so for the other teams. And the Dees? Long, long way to go even if we get the breaks we need. At least DB is a teaching coach like Clarkson.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

And the Dees? Long, long way to go even if we get the breaks we need. At least DB is a teaching coach like Clarkson.

Things can obviously go horribly wrong, horribly quickly as West Coast have shown... and time will tell how the Blues, Toigs and others will play the Hawks, given that these sides are about to experience resurgences of their own... But when you compare the 16 clubs, list to list... I'd take the Hawks over the next 5 years.

As for DB... Yes it seems he's a teaching coach, but only because he's forced to be. He's surrounded by kids!! I'd like to see if he's capable of recruiting established veterans in a trade and leading them to good careers. Likewise I'd like to see him one day mentor players that are otherwise loose cannons. In other words, I'm hoping he can inspire them as well as develop them, as you can't win flags without a list that believes you and will follow you when the going gets tough.

[Wolfmother 182]

Dappa Dan

Hawthorn could easily do a west coast if you consider the following

IF you think it can't happen think about this

One of their biggest stars has tested positive twice...

The had a med file supress which stated 8-10 players at the club regularly do drugs together....

So although they are going great guns at the moment, it can all crumble pretty quickly

[Guest Schtacker]

I don't really see why anyone would sit there labouring an argument over how bad we are and how much better Hawthorn is and are going to be. Anything can happen. If you can't see we have a very promising young group already, remember we are about to pillage two drafts for picks 1,1,2,17,19,19 (or something) plus the rest of the picks. Nearly all the kids that started this year with Bailey have got off to flyers and many others have taken great strides in 08. Bailey knows what he is doing and he will mould this side. Yes we have a few gaps in the side but may I direct your attention to those draft picks above. In 13 months time, we will have had nearly as good a run with the draft as any of Carlton, Hawthorn, West Coast... whoever. The draft is much less hit-and-miss than it used to be because recruiting has gotten more serious and professional. Expect at least 4 extremely good players out of that batch, two KPPs and and two midfielders.

We have

McLean, PJ, Morton, Rivers, Jones, Davey who are all just excellent footballers already

we also have

Petterd, Miller, Moloney, Warnock, CJ, Dunn, Newton, Martin, Bate, Buckley, Garland, Sylvia, Grimes, Ozzie, Valenti and Maric

I really believe any of them COULD be amongst the league's best at some point in the future. I'm bloody excited about this group to tell you truth.

We WILL have a chance to get the required cattle on the field. I have little doubt we will be around the four in 3 years, beyond that - we'll see....

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

Dappa Dan

Hawthorn could easily do a west coast if you consider the following

IF you think it can't happen think about this

One of their biggest stars has tested positive twice...

The had a med file supress which stated 8-10 players at the club regularly do drugs together....

So although they are going great guns at the moment, it can all crumble pretty quickly

That's pretty much what I just said. My point is if that's the only thing you can think of that'd bring them down, then that's a sign things are going pretty well for them...

I don't really see why anyone would sit there labouring an argument over how bad we are and how much better Hawthorn is and are going to be.

This is why we come to places like 'land and 'ology...

As for your list of players... I don't reckon we can know much at all about our upcoming core group of youngsters when half of them haven't even been recruited yet ('08 and '09 draftees). So there's every reason to be positive about us.

[Guest Schtacker]

That's pretty much what I just said. My point is if that's the only thing you can think of that'd bring them down, then that's a sign things are going pretty well for them...

This is why we come to places like 'land and 'ology...

As for your list of players... I don't reckon we can know much at all about our upcoming core group of youngsters when half of them haven't even been recruited yet ('08 and '09 draftees). So there's every reason to be positive about us.

Yes but obviously it is fair to speculate that with the quality of our upcoming draft picks there is a very high chance we will pick up some guns. If we do it right we will have plugged all our gaps and we will be an excellent side.... we all know what we need... a couple more Forward Key Position players (to go with quality young backmen we already have), a ruckman (bearing in mind we have about 5 young ones on the list already), and one or two more quality mids. That's 5 gaps... we have about 6 quality young players at the moment. Another 11 plus depth needed from the others. Players who are worthy of being in a top side.

We must take Watts (looks a certainty) first.

[Red and Blue Flame 179]

roughly....our current list...(CURRENT- that means minus holland, bode, weetra, yze, white, neitz)...and also means without all our new draftees....

it is 22.44 years old

[H_T 3,043]

If you can't see we have a very promising young group already, remember we are about to pillage two drafts for picks 1,1,2,17,19,19 (or something) plus the rest of the picks.

Drawing a long bow here regarding the picks. I suppose if this years form holds true for next year we may be looking at another priority pick. I'd expect some improvement though.

Nearly all the kids that started this year with Bailey have got off to flyers and many others have taken great strides in 08. Bailey knows what he is doing and he will mould this side. Yes we have a few gaps in the side but may I direct your attention to those draft picks above. In 13 months time, we will have had nearly as good a run with the draft as any of Carlton, Hawthorn, West Coast... whoever. The draft is much less hit-and-miss than it used to be because recruiting has gotten more serious and professional. Expect at least 4 extremely good players out of that batch, two KPPs and and two midfielders.

We have

McLean, PJ, Morton, Rivers, Jones, Davey who are all just excellent footballers already

..........

Petterd, Miller, Moloney, Warnock, CJ, Dunn, Newton, Martin, Bate, Buckley, Garland, Sylvia, Grimes, Ozzie, Valenti and Maric

I really believe any of them COULD be amongst the league's best at some point in the future. I'm bloody excited about this group to tell you truth.

We WILL have a chance to get the required cattle on the field. I have little doubt we will be around the four in 3 years, beyond that - we'll see....

Agree but I have doubts on the ones listed in bold. Jury is out for me with these guys...next season will give us the answers.