PJ will improve, stay excited!

  Doggo said:

I don't believe having a #1 ruckman is really the way to go these days. More and more clubs are using two capable ruckman in tandem, rather than one specialist and one relief ruckman, and the over-reliance on having your gun #1 ruckman is, or at least should be, a thing of the past. It's an unhealthy dependance that often hurts clubs, as it's hurt us in the past, should the #1 ruckman go down.

I don't know a fit and firing Hille for the Bombers is really helping them and you cannot underestimate the value of Cox when fit.

PJ did do very well on Barry, actually he beat him quite well, I'd rather see him and White change from there and no Jamar in the side.

Happy to see him go but would try him up forward with our lack of height up there. Always been a good kick and mark.......... ???????? Jeff White that is

  condemned 84 said:

I don't know a fit and firing Hille for the Bombers is really helping them and you cannot underestimate the value of Cox when fit..

Hille's not the best tap ruckman. He's very handy around the ground, is a decent mark and can kick a long goal, but i wouldnt call him a 'gun ruckman'. He's like PJ, but unfortunately for Hille (and Essendon) he's had to wear the brunt of the #1 ruck position for the majority of his career, when he could easily have been one of the best #2 ruck/forward in the league. It's just that Laycock is no good, Ryder is a KPP and Bellchambers is very raw. Essendon are stuffed if Hille goes down, much like we've been in the past with JW's injuries.

Cox is a freakish talent and will always be a #1 ruckman, much like White in his younger days, but WCE also have Mark Seaby who is a more than formidable AFL ruckman, and WCE were arguably best when Cox/Seaby were sharing the ruck duties 60:40 (% time in ruck). Cox is playin #1 ruck for them at the moment without Seaby, and due to a number of factors, that included, his influence has lessened. IMO, they arent using the Cox/Seaby partnership to its full advantage.... do i smell a tank?

I really like the idea of 2 equal (or near equal, though in most cases one will always be better the other) ruckman sharing the ruck duties at a ratio of roughly 60:40, as opposed to what we have seen with our use of White in recent years, more like a 75:25 % ratio.

This year the Campbell/Taylor (Haw), Hudson/Minson (WB) combinations have worked very well and are perfect examples of 2 capable but not exceptional ruckman doing better than one superstar and one relief ruckman. In recent times Lade/Brogan, Jolly/Everitt, Cox/Seaby, Ottens/Blake/King etc. have all been similar successful partnerships also.

  Doggo said:

Hille's not the best tap ruckman. He's very handy around the ground, is a decent mark and can kick a long goal, but i wouldnt call him a 'gun ruckman'. He's like PJ, but unfortunately for Hille (and Essendon) he's had to wear the brunt of the #1 ruck position for the majority of his career, when he could easily have been one of the best #2 ruck/forward in the league. It's just that Laycock is no good, Ryder is a KPP and Bellchambers is very raw. Essendon are stuffed if Hille goes down, much like we've been in the past with JW's injuries.

Cox is a freakish talent and will always be a #1 ruckman, much like White in his younger days, but WCE also have Mark Seaby who is a more than formidable AFL ruckman, and WCE were arguably best when Cox/Seaby were sharing the ruck duties 60:40 (% time in ruck). Cox is playin #1 ruck for them at the moment without Seaby, and due to a number of factors, that included, his influence has lessened.

I really like the idea of 2 equal (or near equal, though in most cases one will always be better the other) ruckman sharing the ruck duties at a ratio of roughly 60:40, as opposed to what we have seen with our use of White in recent years, more like a 75:25 % ratio.

This year the Campbell/Taylor (Haw), Hudson/Minson (WB) combinations have worked very well and are perfect examples of 2 capable but not exceptional ruckman doing better than one superstar and one relief ruckman. In recent times Lade/Brogan, Jolly/Everitt, Cox/Seaby, Ottens/Blake/King etc. have all been similar successful partnerships also.

Hille - don't underestimate Hille, he is a good ruckman just starting to click now. Did you see his game against West Coast? He killed Cox.

I got to say his tap work against the blues was great, he was hitting essendon players amongst all the carlton players.

  High Tower said:

Hille - don't underestimate Hille, he is a good ruckman just starting to click now. Did you see his game against West Coast? He killed Cox.

Yes i did see his game against Cox, he was sensational.

From what I've seen in the past, and my best mate who is a mad Essendon supporter agrees, that his ruckwork could be better. His recent games have been an exception to the rule with Hille normally. FWIW i quite like Hille and do rate him highly, but i think it would b fair to say that as a player and a ruckman, his tap-work is not one of his strong points. He has definitely stepped up a cog this year in that regard though, meaning there is hope for guys like PJ.

It wasn't long ago that Hille was barely breaking even in ruck duels.

  AdelaideDemon said:

Johnson looks like he could have value as a non-key-position forward. As a ruck, not so much. Give him a run up forward and see how he goes.

Here's an idea: Johnson for Warnock(Thus keeping our PSD pick for someone fast and skilled (hopefully)

White and Green to Sydney for first round draft pick

I know there's a few of you who see potential in Johnson as a key forward. I can't see him being in a premiership forward line, He's just not that good. Of course on this point I'm happy to be wrong.

As for Green, yes he has become a really good gutsy footballer (Those criticising Dunn should remember that Green has learnt this, he had been known to take the easy option - Not anymore) He has some worth to those near the top but will probably miss our next shot.

White, well maybe he'd be invigorated for 1 -2 more years at a new club

Jamar should be our first ruck for the rest of the year. I'd love to see the stats for % of clearances won while Jamar is rucking compared to White, even P.J. I'm prepared to eat humble pie if I'm wrong but I'd wager it'd be near double. Our midfielders look much better at the stoppages with Jamar rucking, he even racked up some impressive clearance numbers of his own against the lions and someone else, can't remember who.

Yes his disposal isn't great but he's hardly alone there, most of our list need serious work, even one of the captains. And the critisism of his lack of stats is way over the top IMO. He is a young ruckman, 24 I know but only 52 games before this year. Daniher's inability to give gametime to anyone other than White cost us Jolly and Simmonds, and severly stunted the development of Jamar. 52 games of playing the last couple of minutes in each quarter, 5 if Danners was feeling generous. No wonder he couldn't get into the game and find the pill. Those 50 odd games would have been lucky to be worth more than 20 games of any valuable experience. His ruckwork has improved in leaps and bounds this year with more game time, his aggression in the ruck contest is fantastic (I'd like to see more of it around the ground). I haven't seen much of him at VFL level but if it's true, as often stated here, that he dominates, then surely we need to give him an opportunity to show if he can do it in the big time.

  grazman said:

It's a pity we couldn't morph PJ and Jamar into one body, we'd get a pretty decent ruckman.

Knowing our luck, instead of a brilliant tap ruckman with good skills, we'd get an absolute klutz who couldn't ruck worth [censored].

  furious d said:

Jamar should be our first ruck for the rest of the year. I'd love to see the stats for % of clearances won while Jamar is rucking compared to White, even P.J. I'm prepared to eat humble pie if I'm wrong but I'd wager it'd be near double. Our midfielders look much better at the stoppages with Jamar rucking, he even racked up some impressive clearance numbers of his own against the lions and someone else, can't remember who.

Yes his disposal isn't great but he's hardly alone there, most of our list need serious work, even one of the captains. And the critisism of his lack of stats is way over the top IMO. He is a young ruckman, 24 I know but only 52 games before this year.

I'm pretty sure Jamar had only 1 handball, 1 disposal against Carlton (?) earlier this year, from over 80% game time! It's not the first time he's done it either- they don't call him donuts for nothing, and frankly after 59 games and 6 seasons in the system, am i outta line to expect more than that?

Over the top? I dont think so. In every game Jamar has played this year, he's spent a good amount of time on the ground. One thing DB has not been afraid to do that we rarely saw under ND, is play both ruckman on the ground at the same time. Jamar would b averaging about 80% game time this season by my rough estimate, up from the 40-60% he would get under Daniher. He has only got over 10 disposals on one occassion so far this year, and he's averaging 7.4 disposals a game, an improvement of just over 2 disposals per game up on his career average of just under 5 a game under ND, despite all the extra game time he's getting. Still over the top?

I do agree that he has clearly been our most effective tap ruckman this year, but i think his work around the ground is of an unacceptable level.

No Doggo you're not out of line at all, but my point was other than this year he hasn't been given a chance to get into games. It takes more time with rucks . He's effectively had 7 games of proper development IMO. I'm not sure if he'll make it, jury's out, but I'd like to see him given every opportunity after putting so many years into him. I think most here seem to agree he's our best tap ruckmen. I believe, though I can't back it up with stats, we are much more competitive in clearances while he's rucking, why wouldn't you start him in the ruck. Sydney had 5 goals on the board before our mids had even touched the ball, game over.

Our seasons over, White is 31. P.J showed a bit up forward. I'd play all 3 for a few more games at least, but I'd give Jamar first crack

  furious d said:

No Doggo you're not out of line at all, but my point was other than this year he hasn't been given a chance to get into games. It takes more time with rucks . He's effectively had 7 games of proper development IMO. I'm not sure if he'll make it, jury's out, but I'd like to see him given every opportunity after putting so many years into him. I think most here seem to agree he's our best tap ruckmen. I believe, though I can't back it up with stats, we are much more competitive in clearances while he's rucking, why wouldn't you start him in the ruck. Sydney had 5 goals on the board before our mids had even touched the ball, game over.

Our seasons over, White is 31. P.J showed a bit up forward. I'd play all 3 for a few more games at least, but I'd give Jamar first crack

He has had six years in the system, Surely the Footy department have seen enough of him during that time to make a valid assessment both at MFC and Sandy. The fact that many think he is our best tap ruckman illustrates the hole we are in with our rucks.

However, if they pick him there is no use leaving him on the bench. We know what we get from White these days.

For me it is simple.

End of 2008:

Out: White, Jamar

In: Naita, Warnock

  Rhino Richards said:

He has had six years in the system, Surely the Footy department have seen enough of him during that time to make a valid assessment both at MFC and Sandy. The fact that many think he is our best tap ruckman illustrates the hole we are in with our rucks.

However, if they pick him there is no use leaving him on the bench. We know what we get from White these days.

And obviously over those 6 years they've seen enough in him to warrant keeping him on the list

  Eastie Boyz said:

And obviously over those 6 years they've seen enough in him to warrant keeping him on the list

Different regime now than two years ago.

They still must have seen enough in him to keep him on.

He'll never be a star but if he can negate the opposition ruckman around the ground and continue his form at stoppages he's worth playing (atm anyway)

2 years ago we thought he would get better, and offered a new deal. IMO he has got better in the ruck duels but has shown absolutley nothing around the ground. Im predicting that If Warnock comes over then he will be gone.

Im pumped to get Robbie. I really hate counting chickens and all that. Ill be upset if he decides to stay.

Our current tall player stock

Mark Jamar

has been effective in some games and easily our best ruck performer this season so far

Jeff White

has lost some of his spring but still handy around the ground

after that terrible injury he just hasnt been the same player albeit jeff is nearing the end of his career

Paul Johnson

still too early to judge but needs to take the next step soon

John Meeson

i am not sure john is going to make the grade although i hope i am wrong

Stefan Martin - yet to play

shows some class and given the oppurtunity could be a surprise packet

Jake Spencer - yet to play

Could end up being the best of the bunch

Trent Zomer - yet to play

Could turn into a key position player up forward from what i have seen so far

The biggest problem with ruckmen is the time it takes them to mature due to the physical nature of the position and wear and tear on the body

Over the last decade ruckmen have been more damaging around the ground than at neutral ruck contests mainly due to lack of class ruckmen playing the game

the last great tap ruckman to play was Simon Maddern at Essendon and that was ages ago

IMO Naitinui ISNT the answer although nobody can deny his great leap and speed but i have always thought football smarts is much more valuable long term

I would pick Rich , Hurley , Watts and Warnock ahead of him

Cordy IMO looks like the best ruckman in next years draft and will be a Bulldog under the father / son rule

I'd say Johnson has shown much more than Jamar in terms of being a good footballer, which means much more than being a good tap ruckman

  45hotgod said:

I'd say Johnson has shown much more than Jamar in terms of being a good footballer, which means much more than being a good tap ruckman

I agree.

I think there is much more upside associated with Johnson that with Jamar. At his best, Jamar provides shephards, blocks etc. but stil isn't a dominant tap ruckman. At PJ's best, which probably hasn't been seen yet, he can play forward, but again, isn't a dominant ruckman. So we do need to look to Meeson/Spencer or Naitanui/Warnock to get someone to help in the hitouts department.

  45hotgod said:

I'd say Johnson has shown much more than Jamar in terms of being a good footballer, which means much more than being a good tap ruckman

Agree. PJ looks like a footballer. He moves, reads the play and kicks, like a footballer!

Jamar is good at the taps, but i doubt, if we havent yet seen glimpses of it after 6 seasons, that we'll ever see him play a good, well-rounded game of FOOTBALL.

  45hotgod said:

I'd say Johnson has shown much more than Jamar in terms of being a good footballer, which means much more than being a good tap ruckman

Cant disagree with that but the subject was about ruckmen

PJ has more versatility than Jamar but Jamar has the ability to neutralise opposing ruckmen where PJ would struggle

I see what you mean, but then i suppose the argument then becomes how effective is an effective ruckman/hitout.

I personally don't think tap outs are as important as they once were. Hit outs do not equal clearances, and in fact can often lead the other way around. Watching White this season, it's bewhildering the amount of times his hit outs will not go to advantage.

I see what you mean, and i do think that Jamar is a better traditional ruckman, but in today's football i think a ruckman is not just one who contains himself to ball ups and throw ins

I think the argument is about not just which footballer at the MFC can take the ball ups and throw ins, but who can be versatile enough to play different rules, and who understands football enough to make it hurt around the ground.