Melbournes problem

[sylvinator 96]

i know Mike sheehan is not to be taken seriously, but i am always interested to note that the demons never have more than 2-3 players in the top 50 players in the afl and do not have 1 in the top 30.

every team except the demons has a champion who's in the top 30 players in the afl. why is it that every team can develop that type of a player. i know alot of this can be luck (i.e. we pick up sylvia pick 3 in the draft one year, another year we couldve gotten Judd pick 3...unlucky) but its very frustrating.

i believe that our inability to produce a champion player is holding us back to win a premiership. every premiership team in the last decade has had them, we cannot expect to win a premiership without atleast a couple of players in the top 30 in the afl.

Why the hell is melbourne the only team unable to produce a champion player. this is an important question that needs to be solved if we are to become contenders in future years. is it recruiting or development? (out of our current team, Mclean is the only player i can realistically say will one day possibly be in the top 30 players in the afl)

[demoniac 1,243]

I think that Maclean, Jones, Sylvia, Bate and Dunn have the games to become the genuine quality players we have lacked. Rivers too.

Its a fair question posed though. Certainly luck is an issue with the years in which you have high picks but the Lions certainly seem to be rebuilding with some high picks but also some good mid range gets.

[beelzebub 22,225]

alas you hit upon a point.. we do seem to lack players with that week in week out "certain something" .

On a good day we have anywhere to upwards of a dozen stars buthose days are rare and far apart.

On any given day the few that really shine are indeed Brocky and Jared.... lurking in the shadows is Junior ( with Bartram as a sort of protoge ) and the up and comer is the Jones boy !! we have a fair share of honest workers... but we have I feel too many passengers for a freight train !!

as for everyone else it seems to rely on some alignment of the stars !!

Stars !! ?? where do they come from, how would we know..... I have thought for some time that one of the biggest problems with the MFC is its tendency to play players too long, to not be mercenary enough. We have seen some genuine talent leave this club out of frustration. They were not allowed game time whilst certain powers that be persisted with the " I believe in their ability to come good " policy.. to have" undying faith in them " style. I'm sorry rev whilst his may well be a 'lfe' method and a genuinely good approach to people in the bigger sense, there is unfortunately a great er sense of urgency in football; it's a week in week out proposition with everything hanging onthe play that is happening THAT day...no good waiting til someone comes good in a week or two. Get the non-performers out ...bring the 'wanna plays" in.

we are two and zip... on form and injuries only a real die hard would give up much of a show in the next 4-5 weeks..

dare I suggest...we restart the season.. think fresh.. give some kids a run...lets see who has a twinkle about them....

[astrodee 0]

We had Wells, Alves, Flower - all top 30 players while we languished at the bottom of the ladder. We need a TEAM that is mentally tough and plays for each other. Then we might be successful. A star COACH would help too.

[Adzman 2,085]

I will say it now, top class players wont win a flag!

The swans lack top class players, however have a committed team or players hwo are consistent and play their guts out week in week out. The swans have lewis roberts thompson at CHB. THis guy is not talented, and he kills chfs in the comp.

The roos of the 90s were the same.

We need a team of committed players, not guys who like to finish the job and do pretty things.

We need to harden up.

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

I will say it now, top class players wont win a flag!

The swans lack top class players, however have a committed team or players hwo are consistent and play their guts out week in week out. The swans have lewis roberts thompson at CHB. THis guy is not talented, and he kills chfs in the comp.

The roos of the 90s were the same.

We need a team of committed players, not guys who like to finish the job and do pretty things.

We need to harden up.

Spot on Wrathchild.

Champion team > Team of champions.

Moreover, during on in the season Melbourne can't draft or recruit anyone so saying that they need better players is a cop out. You've got to use what you've got and Melbourne does have a lot of talent.

[maggotbasher 0]

I will say it now, top class players wont win a flag!

The swans lack top class players, however have a committed team or players hwo are consistent and play their guts out week in week out. The swans have lewis roberts thompson at CHB. THis guy is not talented, and he kills chfs in the comp.

The roos of the 90s were the same.

We need a team of committed players, not guys who like to finish the job and do pretty things.

We need to harden up.

Wouldn't want to model our game on the Swans. Winning football it maybe, but ugly too watch. If more teams play like them, the great game will go into decline.

The Roos would've won sweet FA without Carey.

I think we need some true superstars playing great week in, week out. Having said that, this is a reasonably talented list that doesn't seem to be playing with much interest.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

Eh? Swans no class players? Roos of the nineties? Goodes, Hall, O'Keefe, Carey? I think I might have missed something there WC.

And I'm not so sure about all this. Yes, we don't have a star. That much is clear. But I also think MFC will NEVER have a star. If Shaun Burgoyne were playing at MFC they'd characterise him as "silky talented midfielder, penetrating kick. Oodles of talent." With Kerr they'd say "Super-talented mid-fielder, very small". I'm completely confident that unless we Recruit an established star, NO-ONE will rate any demons higher than they are currently. Everyone has a pre-judged opinion of us that keeps them from getting excited about players.

Case in point? Hawkins. He's had all this hype, and kicks 3 goals. If Newton came in and kicked 3 goals what would people say? Nothing. Forget the fact that he's a couple of years ahead of him, a star is a star at whatever age.

to be honest, I couldn't give a stuff what people think of our "stars." It's how our best players play on the day. THAT'S why we have none at the moment. I'm more worried about how MFC people rate their best players. ie, is Neitz a champion, or an MFC champion? Is Bruce a star? or just an MFC star?

Whelan is only a champion of MFC, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

[Gorgoroth 12,308]

the swans have hall and goodes both bloody great players and id say better than what we have week in week out

we had the oxx but 3 knees ruined him, lyon but the back killed that, tingay but again injury

[Scoop Junior 2,963]

I think the initial post is pretty good. I was wondering the same myself. I just can't remember us having players who could drag us over the line single-handedly. Garry Lyon at times would lay some crunching tackles to inspire the side and kick some big goals, but by this stage of his career it was more inspiration than actual effect as his back was stuffed.

We don't seem to have the star quality to win games when things are going pear-shaped. Geelong has a similar problem IMO. They look a million bucks when on top but find it difficult to respond when confidence is low and the team isn't performing.

Nature or nurture? Are we not picking up star players in the draft or are we not developing our players as well as others?

[sylvinator 96]

just a quick point. paul roos has done a great job the last couple of years to fool the footballing world telling us that they are a workmanlike team with no star players. hall and goodes are both top 15 players in the afl and are both stars. a dare say that jude bolten, kirk, okeefe are also top 40 players.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

Nature versus nurture...

I reckon the way ND, CAC and probably Mark Williams nurture our young players is one of MFC's strengths. They give them at least one season where they're not expected to make the seniors. After that they're SLOWLY brought into the team with only as much pressure as they deserve given their performances.

[Seekers SEECAMP 0]

Nature versus nurture...

I reckon the way ND, CAC and probably Mark Williams nurture our young players is one of MFC's strengths. They give them at least one season where they're not expected to make the seniors. After that they're SLOWLY brought into the team with only as much pressure as they deserve given their performances.

You reckon?

Are you saying that for the past 9 years Daniher & Co's ability to 'nurse' our young & upcoming brigade has been a strength?

Dappa, If you are silly enough to think this and yet not been satisfied with yesterdays performance, your comments are as confusing as the Mfc itself.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

Dappa, If you are silly enough to think this and yet not been satisfied with yesterdays performance, your comments are as confusing as the Mfc itself.

What?

Jesus. Look at the youth of the club. Bate, Dunn, Newton, Bell, Jones, Buckley, CJ. All given time, not rushed into the club. Jones is a goer. McLean is our future. Bartram came from WAY down, as did Bruce. We're getting more than our fair share out of our lower draft picks and rookies, statistically this is proven when compared to the lists of the other 15 clubs. What more do you want?

I said it's a strength, not that MFC is the STRONGEST in this area. Our top selections were mistakes, we know this. And I reckon players like Trav and White were as responsible for round 2 as anyone, but they were taken BEFORE Daniher's time.

As a work in progress the last 3 years have been pretty good. We've gotten draft picks only after the first 8 have been divvied up, along with the Father/Sons. We've had very little in the way of juicy picks and we've still picked up some good guys that are coming along very well, and have proven so far to be better players than their picks suggested.

To explain my "silliness" to you in terms you can comprehend, I believe the last 2 rounds will be proven to be abberrations in the (very) long run, and I blame the coach as much as anyone for our lack of early season mental preparedness. The nurturing of the youth is one of the FEW things the club has gotten right.

Simple enough for you, or still silly?

BTW, I've heard on the grapevine that you're close to Hannabal. Where did he go? Finally got sick of demonlanders?

[Yze_Magic 3]

Not 1 champion produced in Danihers time at the club

Whats the excuse I wonder?

The last real champion we had was Robbie Flower, with G.Lyon a close second

[Seekers SEECAMP 0]

Dappa, this isn't a post game witch hunt or finger pointing exercise

My point is, its alright for blokes to talk about youth, but it means something when there is a proven track record of youth/player development on show.

Player recruitment is an investment. Player 'development' is a process and it doesn't all of a sudden stop when the player hits 21.

Getting away from your rhetoric Dappa, there are much deeper issues here....hopefully any monkey can see that.

So, will we see Godders, Brown & Ward front up again?

If the last 2 games were an abberation, sure ,i'll take your word for it...

[rissy 0]

One of our many problems are our gutless midfielders. The last two weeks we have seen them chip the ball around running 15 meters sideways to get the easy kick, clapping there hands. But when it comes to the crunch in the packs there more than happy to throw out a hand ball.

One example was against the hawks green had half the paddock to himself, miller on a strong lead, ignored him then ran to far, had no idea what to do, ao when miller went to lay a sheperd green decided to handball over his head!

Our Midfielders

Jeff white - Loaps around the ground, little leads to try and get an easy kick, he should be 50 metres up the ground taking a contesed mark! Refuses to make a physical impact! Never imposes himself on the oppistion smaller players!

James Mcdonald - Tries harder than most. Lacks vision and skills but makes up in heart!

Cameron Bruce - Runs all day to get a kick. Can be silky but not in tight tough situations. No physicallity about him, again struggles to impose himself on a game. Cannot chase! Little vision

Travis Johnstone - has bulked up, i worry that sometimes he is 2 or 3 kicks ahead of most player on the ground. Needs to find hunger, but needs help from his mates. He gets the biggest tag each week!

Brad Green - Silky skills but anyone can chip it 20 metres sideways. Like other dont want to carry the responsibility of a 50 metres pass forward. Runs hard to get a kick but little manning up! Little marking ability.

Mathew Bate - Kicks shocking helicopters! Is fairly slow. Not tough enough yet. Shows good promise at times but needs to stand up!

Nathan Jones - Tough, goodish skills and has a crack. Needs to keep improving and not get complacent.

Mark Jamar - He just keeps improving. More game time and much better at pushing forward than white! Looks aggresive. Needs to learn his limitations though.

Aaron Davey - Needs to forget about being a midfielder. Watching the game i know now he will never be close to the wiz. He needs to stay in the forward 50 and rove, thats what he is there for. No goals this year, should not play at the weekend if we are serious. MArk williams kicked 6, most of them after half time because he stayed where he was meant to and didn't lose patience!

Russel Robertson - when davey is off kick chasing he needs to be roving, not flying for the speccy every time. If he keeps going he will just keep getting injured! We have newton and hughes who can to that, No need to sook everytime as well!

Basically im just a fed up supporter!

[CARN THE DEES! 14]

A champion team beats a team of champions!!

[Seekers SEECAMP 0]

Customary false hope!

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

My point is, its alright for blokes to talk about youth, but it means something when there is a proven track record of youth/player development on show.

Player recruitment is an investment. Player 'development' is a process and it doesn't all of a sudden stop when the player hits 21.

Getting away from your rhetoric Dappa, there are much deeper issues here....hopefully any monkey can see that.

So, will we see Godders, Brown & Ward front up again?

If the last 2 games were an abberation, sure ,i'll take your word for it...

- So are you saying there isn't? The young guys at the club are pretty damn good. And they're developing nicely. I wouldn't say they're developing at an ACCELERATED rate, but as far as each player goes we're getting out of them the time that's invested. Obviously there's a couple of exceptions, but on the whole... You tell me where our development has gone wrong.

- So you're saying the Travs, Greens and Bruces are an example of stunted development? There's some truth to that. But I'm happy with the direction at least one of their games is taking. Also, after 21 I reckon the onus shifts to the players themselves.

- Yes, clearly my rhetoric is the problem here. And I do agree with you there, the development isn't exactly the LAST thing we need to worry about, but it's close enough to.

- By up front do you mean in the forward line? If so, God I hope not. If not, and what you meant was "will they be selected" then yes. In some cases, and certainly when we have injuries enough, we're going to need the depth, that's what they're for. These young "developing" players can't be expected to play 22 each. In some cases I don't expect them to play 12. This is the reason guys like the older depth players are retained. You can't be running around with kids all year if you expect to make finals. As bad as things are, if ND tanks now and decides to play youth to the detriment of all else, there'd be chaos in the media and at the club. The time has not come yet to throw the 2007 towel in.

The way I see it, as with all sides who come to the end of a sustained period of success (albeit very mediocre success), once the powers that be agree that we can't make finals or win a flag, then you delist your depth players to make all that lovely room you need for the youth to come in. Simple really, but we're FAR from being there yet.

- I'm not completely convinced the they were an abberration, but 3 years of slowly improving footy warrants a show of faith for the time being. At round 3 last year we were robbed, and at that stage everyone got off their backs, and we went on to have a good year. We're supposed to be giving the team and coaching department a chance to prove they can improve, and while they've done the exact opposite so far, there is still time.

[Seekers SEECAMP 0]

Gone wrong?

All tip of the iceburg stuff

Direction for one. Lack of vision is two.

Player development is snail paced and list management has been AWOL

Succession planning? Nothing new..just not heard of at the junction oval...?

4 players are already the wrong side of 30, of which 2 ( 34 & 9) have totally plateaued out and are on the decline...tell me..where will the potential champions come from in the short tm. Jamar perhaps? Newton perhaps? PJ perhaps? Maybe 426 if we'd held onto him for a couple more years? Oh yeah..and we almost forgot the perpetual vacuum issue at CHF and the issue of no boot polish at FB.

Maybe Frawley can offer something there and perhaps Dunn @ CHF. Thats long term...along with Newton still too raw. Is there anyone else?

Our long term inability to have any kind of plan B in any facet of our club is what is hurting us

The best we can do is pray for no more outside receivers! Weve got those by the bucketloads.

[Guest baysidedave]

i know Mike sheehan is not to be taken seriously, but i am always interested to note that the demons never have more than 2-3 players in the top 50 players in the afl and do not have 1 in the top 30.

every team except the demons has a champion who's in the top 30 players in the afl. why is it that every team can develop that type of a player. i know alot of this can be luck (i.e. we pick up sylvia pick 3 in the draft one year, another year we couldve gotten Judd pick 3...unlucky) but its very frustrating.

i believe that our inability to produce a champion player is holding us back to win a premiership. every premiership team in the last decade has had them, we cannot expect to win a premiership without atleast a couple of players in the top 30 in the afl.

Why the hell is melbourne the only team unable to produce a champion player. this is an important question that needs to be solved if we are to become contenders in future years. is it recruiting or development? (out of our current team, Mclean is the only player i can realistically say will one day possibly be in the top 30 players in the afl)

This is EXACTLY the problem , no real Topline players, no-one ever in the top ten. The last Demon to be in the topten was Gary Lyon, just luck of the draw, McLean will get there in years to come and maybe Bate is good enough but who knows. It is all about luck, but the fact is we need to go and get Judd ($1.2 million a year) or maybe Cousins when he gets clean and sober. I reckon if we had Judd we would win the flag

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

Gone wrong?

All tip of the iceburg stuff

Direction for one. Lack of vision is two.

Player development is snail paced and list management has been AWOL

Succession planning? Nothing new..just not heard of at the junction oval...?

4 players are already the wrong side of 30, of which 2 ( 34 & 9) have totally plateaued out and are on the decline...tell me..where will the potential champions come from in the short tm. Jamar perhaps? Newton perhaps? PJ perhaps? Maybe 426 if we'd held onto him for a couple more years? Oh yeah..and we almost forgot the perpetual vacuum issue at CHF and the issue of no boot polish at FB.

Maybe Frawley can offer something there and perhaps Dunn @ CHF. Thats long term...along with Newton still too raw. Is there anyone else?

Our long term inability to have any kind of plan B in any facet of our club is what is hurting us

The best we can do is pray for no more outside receivers! Weve got those by the bucketloads.

Yeah, this is quickly turning into another "difference of opinion" tennis match here, which is a shame. I think we were getting somewhere. Or at least you were.

Yep. Our insiders are gold dust. The outsiders you can recruit and trade each year as the need arises. Dime a dozen.

Personally I just plain disagree that it's all doom and gloom. We KNEW before this draft, and the one before, that we were struggling for talls. We went for the best available with the first pick, then after that there weren't really any gun ruckmen/CHBs/CHFs available. Had we had pick 3 or earlier we would have gotten Gumby/Leunberger/Hansen etc etc.

What were we supposed to do? This is what happens when you go well for a few years. You're a victim of your own mediocrity. Most supporters and just about every demons official wanted us to recruit and play for a flag while we could and Neita was still around. If it fails, so be it. Don't cry over spilt milk, and don't blame a lack of vision. MFC made a choice, and we're going to pay for it even if we do win a flag. Given our resources I'm stunned we even get within cooee of the opportunity to play in a GF. I don't think it's correct to claim we don't have good direction. What would you have done better? I'm sure you'll have good answers, but I struggle to find them. In most cases the right decisions were made in that we've recruited good players in MOST selections we've had. What more can you ask? Go for players you rate lower because they fulfill the need at the time? Pull another Molan? No. I'm satisfied we've taken the correct course given the lists strengths and weaknesses and the available players at the time, but that's just me. And I'm prepared to be the Lions of the last couple of years for a while if it means players like Dunn can improve without being expected to push us into finals. It's easy to say the club had no direction when it had 4 or so BAAAD recruiting years. That puts pressure on anyone's list management. But we've had what looks like 3 pretty good ones. If in the next 5 years we have 3 years where we get 3 good players out of 4, then we're on our way. That's as good as you can hope, I reckon. BTW, you didn't answer my question about Hannabal.

[Seekers SEECAMP 0]

Yeah, this is quickly turning into another "difference of opinion" tennis match here, which is a shame. I think we were getting somewhere.

Dapper, I see where youre coming from and I think we have pretty similiar views...youre just a tad more positive than I!!

I agree theres no doubt we been penalised by our own conservative,middle of the road success over the past few years.

When looking at say Key pos recruitment, my point here is that historically, over the past 10+ years, injuries to our KPP's mixed with a ridiculously poor track record of KPP recruitment has ultimately mauled us and looks set to bite us again.

My other issue is the constant lack of consistency of the playing group, as has been the case for a number of years. Inconsistency has to be expected in a rebuilding phase, but should not be granted to a club who has had almost 10 years to get things right.

BTW, Hannabal is well..[censored] off right atm, but good as gold!

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

In the end, I have to concede the point. 10 years and no flag with players like White, Yze, Schwartz, Trav and Neitz is failure. No matter which way I look at it.

Say hey to H for me. I don't blame him...