DeeSpencer

Wing. He was ok. But lack of pace to break the lines a concern if he's staying on the wing and he was caught a couple of times in the Hawks pressure, as a lot of our players were. Frost was pretty good. Can make a spoil, and he can break the lines with pace, but his disposal and lack of awareness might hurt back just as much as it did forward.

I'm not as positive as some, because I'm just not sure what position he'll end up in and his lack of speed looks as big a worry as ever. But there's no doubt he gave a good effort and he still has some skills and smarts. Hoping he can build from here.

He had good and bad moments but I also question just what exactly he is learning at the moment playing alongside his brother and Frost/Garland, with other youngsters in the backline. There's very little cohesion there and that can't be good for learning to play the game. The counter to that is it was wet and the Hawks have some elite pressure forwards.

Dunn was in the non starters team. I guess we'll find out soon if that was deliberate or not.

Swung by for a little bit around 11am. No Lumumba, Viney, Brayshaw, Mitch King, Salem. Lots of small group drills working on different craft things - goal kicking, snaps, marks, picking the ball up etc. Garland was running laps and working with one of the fitness staff obviously in non contact work. Wagner was doing laps and then some run throughs. They moved in to a full ground drill with the blue training jumper team v the green vests, with presumably the starting players in the blue than the green. From memory the blues were: Backs: Frost, O Mc, T Mc, Hunt, Jetta Mids: Gawn, Vince, Jones, Trengove, Tyson, Stretch, Bugg Fwds: Dawes, Watts, Harmes, Kent, Oliver, Petracca, Garlett Hogan sat that drill out and did some kick and mark stuff with Crossy. After that they announced Trengove was back in to a big cheer. Then it was out in to more small drills. Clarry and Vince got in a heated push and shove, with Matt Jones stepping in between them. I think it was all fun and games and all good after but Clarry was angry about something. He was training with heavily padded compression shorts on. Hogan's set shot routine is a lot straighter, but it still looks very forced and he slows down dramatically after his sideways steps. I actually think he had a better routine last year where he got the stutters out early then finished with some good momentum in to the ball. A work in progress. I really think the fitness staff (or a privately hired coach) need to sort out his running bio-mechanics as soon as possible as well. So Trenners is in. Dawes seems likely to be in - he did some ruck practise with the rucks as well. Frost could replace Garland. The boys were in good spirits throughout, lots of laughing and joking especially when a lot of them lined up to take hangers on the bag.

There's no greater example of zone defending in modern football than kick outs. Every team will push players up the ground, spread them across the middle and allow forwards to make it a foot race back to goal if they can win it clean across their half back line. Port got us so often from kick outs. Now you can blame the zone being too aggressive, which it probably was, or you can look at just how terribly we were once that kick out came. Almost every time they kicked long to Westhoff or Dixon and gathered numbers running through the pack to get the ball over the back, and almost every time Garland and the 2 McDonald's were unable to punch the ball with authority back towards our goal. In fact more than not they could barely spoil, even though it's obvious as can be where the kick out is going. The same thing happened around the ground, but the kick outs were the worst. Operation fixing the zone defending part 1 is: Getting some forward pressure on. Operation fixing the zone defending part 2 is: Getting some defenders willing to either take a strong intercept mark or put a strong fist through the ball and hit it back our way. The inability to get anything resembling a strong spoil for most of the day was horrendous.

Adelaide just wiped GWS with Sloane, Thompson and who knows who else in the inside midfield. We need to win clearances and get better at that, but I think we need more versatile players across the ground. There's no more pressing need than the midfield (key defender aside), but we need to start building the midfield with complete players I think.

Agree. The half forwards were abysmal today. Frost was a rubbish forward but you can see why they picked him so much earlier in the year. The bloke has speed and a red hot dip at laying a tackle, even if his agility was good for a big man more than overall good. Newton's speed is going to limit him, but surely fitness is a factor as well and given fitness is mostly a mental game that's my issue with him. He's got some speed when he's running forward, turns to run backwards and it's one paced.

Rubbish game. I don't hate our defensive set up, when it works we've played very well and held teams to lower scores. But we need a plan B. And we need to know how to attack in to a team with a man back. Same problem has killed us for years. Really my biggest worry right now is we have invested too much in good kids with bad footy brains who struggle under pressure - Harmes, Kent, Hunt, the McDonald's, ANB. None of these guys are known for their smart play. That said, they all have a lot of positives as well and I'm sure the hope is we can get Salem right, Petracca, Brayshaw and Oliver fitter and be on our way. Anyway, back to the backline, it's a mess. Vince had to go in the middle, Salem's out, Lumumba (despite his many bad points) can bring some sense of confidence at times. Right now it's just Jetta. Oscar McDonald looked better and at times looked like he was in for a solid game, but he needs to be the young inexperienced kid finding his way who is shown the ropes. Tom McDonald had a few good moments but they couldn't get him on Dixon enough, and they didn't seem to even try to get him following Westhoff on to a wing for a different role which I would've. Westhoff killed us behind the play in the 1st and 3rd quarters when we had momentum. The forward line wasn't much better. Hogan's set shot kicking was abysmal, his new routine is worse than previous. Garlett and Kent's brain fades are awful. Time to just play one of those two at a time. Midfield was rubbish. Vince going it didn't achieve much. Bugg was quiet as he had to say out and couldn't roll in to provide another option as he has previous. Stretch started well then was seemingly reassigned, couldn't get the ball out to him anyway. Kennedy nothing. ANB just doesn't have the tricks. Newton doesn't have the athleticism or desire to run. Then maybe the biggest disappointment was Dom Tyson. A week off has killed his form and he wasn't crashing in hard enough, wasn't tackling or really anything of quality.

Out: Newton, ANB, Oscar, Garland, Kent, Viney ( if susp) In: Grimes, Pedersen/Dawes, Frost, Dunn, Oliver, Trengove (if Viney susp) FB: Jetta Frost Dunn HB: Vince T Mc Wagner C: Bugg Jones Stretch HF: Petracca Hogan Kennedy FF: Garlett Watts Pedda/Dawes Foll: Gawn Oliver Tyson Int: Hunt Harmes Grimes Trengove

I wouldn't pay overs for anyone on that list really. But if there's a chance of some cheap pick ups it's worth targeting positions we need. Mainly ruck, forward/ruck, tall defenders and half back ball users. He's often injured but if the Cats don't want to play Nathan Vardy when fit then we could at least ask the question. Jordan Murdoch is another talented player who could give us some speed at half back or on the wing, but he's probably a question mark about long term ability. I'd think about Majak if he was free as a 2nd/3rd ruck. I like the idea of trying 1 or maybe 2 mature recruits each year just to give them a fresh start in a new club and filling a need to see if they improve but we probably aren't as desperate as we have been the last few years. It's probably up to about 5 or so guys on the delistings bubble to show in the back half of the year they are worth one more year, and if they do then we might be heading more towards drafting kids this year.

I don't think it will change after this year, although they might try less in the preseason or similar. Really though if we go too much lower down to something like 40 then you might ruin the benefits that 90 has delivered. Instead of more one on one footy you might get less as teams will be determined to flood back and hold possession. Instead of tall forwards and defenders playing close to full games they might be taken out of the game in favour of 22 running players of similar build. Instead of some of the good midfielders going up against each other throughout the day the tactics of the 10 fresh changes per quarter could see players multiple players doing short bursts in the midfield before rotating to flanks and pockets.

Before or after we signed up Spencer for another year is probably an important question. I'd have Majak as a back up if the club feels the need to have someone else alongside Spencer, possibly whilst Mitch King is injured. But I wouldn't be offering him more than a 1 year deal and wouldn't be that keen on a main list spot even if he's earnt it. As a cheap buy I don't mind him, but not as anything more.

Also given Max King (when not rucking), Keilty (if not back), Dawes, Tim Smith (192cm marking forward), Hulett and Weideman are all playing in the same forward line it's quite remarkable it functions and also means there's not going to be all that much footy to go around. I'd love to know how they are making it work. They must be making full use of the 23rd man and extra bench spot that provides and the talls must be doing really well at putting on enough pressure.

Bad news, yet kind of good news as it explains his form a bit if that makes any sense. Hopefully it's the short term. If they can fix it quickly at least he'll have enough of a fitness base to bounce back for this season.

Hasn't made a mistake all year and statistically he'll improve a lot next year.

I agree this is somewhat of a poor thread. I disagree about the goal conceded - Brisbane should've had at least 4 or 5 more goals if they kicked straight, including Oscar's man himself should've had at least 1 more. Brisbane's forward line and the way they moved it in was nothing like St Kilda did at Etihad. I agree that Oscar seems well suited to zone style defending. He's had 18 disposals and could've used them much better pretty easily - just getting over that stage fright factor would've seen him use them better. I think in time he's going to make a nice marking intercept defender, and he will use the ball pretty well. He seems to struggle to hit leading targets but that can be fixed. The one big flaw in his game right now I think is his inability to spoil and take the body. First he needs to build his own body to get more confidence. Then he needs time with the coaches and someone like Jetta to learn how to crash through forwards. Aside from that he's just a little slower than you'd like. He's definitely more of an up the ground mobile defender than a closing speed style player.

I haven't seen any of Casey the last two weeks but I would've thought Frost needs more time to establish form back there before coming up. It's probably the easiest position for his skill set, but I'm not convinced he's the answer to our tall defender struggles - short or long term.

I'd bring in Pedersen or Dawes to get Watts back to the 3rd tall role. I just don't think Watts as a ruck is a never again proposition. In fact given that Pedersen and Dawes aren't exactly great in the ruck I'd have a very low threshold for giving Watts the job and if he's ever struggling to get a kick I'd certainly put him in.

I can't remember exactly but I thought it was each player gets a score out of 10 from 4 coaches, doing your role might only get 2 or 3, with a good game getting a pretty low score ie. 4 or 5 and a special game getting a 7,8 or 9. So a really excellent game can score 30+ (or 40) points, where just a standard good game might only get 15 or so. Clearly it's important to put together consistent games scoring 10-15 votes but a few big games can out weigh that.

From the couple of times I've been there even back in preseason he's often in the rehab group, doing run throughs and getting assessed by the physios. Remember he doesn't have the same background of guys like Scully, Trengove, Viney, Brayshaw etc coming through the elite system and knowing ahead of time what it takes to play AFL and training for that. It wouldn't surprise me at all if he needed another rest without an injury.

I know the Melbourne B+F voting system rewards elite games as much as anything - so Viney and Gawn would be top 2. Hogan would be up there as well. But it's also a reward for consistency of playing your role. So Bugg would be right up there. His work rate and defensive efforts from a wing would have him well placed. Harmes would be another getting a fair bit of love for his good games as well as Kennedy.

He's far more valuable when he's involved in the play and I think it was great to get him up around the ball. Even won some taps. A couple of ruck contests a quarter are hardly likely to produce serious injury. And if you're coming at it from the - we need him forward angle - then see point 1, and also note we've done well without him forward.

They found him leading up to space quite a bit, and his last quarter he had it on a string on the far wing after great leads. They are likely reluctant to kick it long and high to him for the exact reasons he showed when they did kick it long and high to him.

Marchbank looks big enough to me, definitely a bigger frame to Plowman I think, but certainly isn't a towering presence. Lobb plays 2nd ruck/goal square forward, Cameron is a prolific goal kicker so needs room inside 50, I think ideally they'd rather a more mobile other tall than Patton. And he's done what 2 ACL's and other knee injuries? Seems to be just part of their team than an important part. What would Tomlinson and Stewart do for us that Watts doesn't and Weideman (and maybe Hulett) soon will do? Neither are big or strong enough to be long term ruck options. We'd all love Kelly but I can't see him going. Ward, Shiel, Coniglio, Greene, Hopper seem like their inside mids, Whitfield and Scully the wingers, but Kelly is that extra bonus class player who can play half forward, wing and inside mid. Nick Haynes would be right up in the list of players I'd love from them. I'd offer them heaps for him.