stevethemanjordan

Surely not? Vince a reject?

He literally was a reject. He was delisted and we picked him up as a delisted FA. What he's done for us says more about our senior figures and leaders than anything else. He has a die-hard attitude and competes at all times like Jones. I doubt he would have been picked up bar perhaps either of the two expansion sides for the same reasons. The doggies have Boyd, Murphy and Morris. Players who carry the same attributes. They've managed their list very well.

I'm wondering how supporters are feeling about him. Let's say it was the choice of the coach and you being the coach had a decision to make about retaining him or releasing him. All things considered, what would you do for the betterment of the club? I've watched him closely this year and I know there are some fans of his who are sick of hearing me go on about it but I genuinely believe he is a problem player who is part of this NQR group of long time serving MFC players. I believe he is a 'nothing' player. For his age and games experience I expect more from him in terms of on-field leadership, competitiveness and football smarts during game day. Never have I seen someone who plays so within themselves. I implore people to go back and just look at the way he plays and what he's actually offering us presently. Go and have a look at the beginning of the doggies game and tell me that he's providing something for this club that someone else couldn't do. I've used him before as an example, but Frawley has been extremely underwhelming in his first year at Hawthorn in all capacities. This isn't only my view. Several Hawthorn supporting mates that I speak to share the same view. They believe his decision making, football smarts and skills are very average and that he looks genuinely lost on the field for them. A boy amongst men. Now, obviously I'm aware that he's playing in an unbelievably skilled side who happen to be the cream of the crop but I am talking more about the leadership qualities he supposedly had. This is a guy who was in our leadership group last year and who is now looking like a school boy playing in a different side. For those who excuse this by saying things like 'he's learning a new system' etc etc, I am talking about basic body language and general intensity and energy shown whilst playing the game. Frawley doesn't show this. Garland doesn't show this and I strongly believe that this kind of lack of general intensity shown by players like that filters through and breeds bad habits and is almost certainly part of why we have such unbelievably poor drop offs in games still, regardless of the areas people believe that we have improved in. When I think of that, and remember that Frawley was in the leadership group last year, it makes me feel a little bit sick. It's no wonder Neeld tried to bring in so many older, experienced heads from other clubs whom he thought would make a more positive and genuine culture change at the club. It was a failed experiment for various reasons but Roos' attempt has proven a success. Cross for example. Let's look at him and let's look at the Bulldogs. They had the luxury of letting a player like him go and I bet your bottom dollar that he has been far more influential, sped up the development and provided far more knowledge than Garland, Dunn and Frawley combined. He plays and carries himself in a way that leaders and senior figures must. He competes and fights nail and tooth at all times and the tragic part of it all is that he is still getting games for us because we lack this kind of psychology and energy. His skills and speed are awful but he provides what players like Garland and Frawley should have provided. Coming back to Garland. What is it that supporters get so hung up about when pondering his value to the side? Given what has just been said. When I look at Jed Adcock, I think wow, here's another opportunity to bring in another player who possesses the same type of leadership qualities that players like Cross possess and he's played a big part in developing some of those younger leaders at Brisbane. Here's an opportunity to fill that 'games experience' void that supporters would worry about in losing him and it also provides an opportunity for us to put someone back there who will provide more attacking drive and better foot-skills and decision making skills which is something our back six are screaming out for. Frankly, I can't understand any argument that is pro keeping Garland other than sentimental feeling or bias for him as an individual. The whole Garland/Frawley/Jamar/Dunn debate is only one of several problems that our club has experienced. But I strongly believe we need to continue to weed the list and proactively and aggressively add to our list so that this core group or Hogan, Viney, Brayshaw, Salem etc continue to grow, continue to be inspired by their leaders and most importantly want to stay the course to take us to our first finals series in almost ten years. Him along with Jamar are two more I'd like seen gone by the end of the season.

I know Danger was 10. I should have said 10 +. Forgive the Heppell one, forgot about that. My point is that we really don't know. Twomey included. It doesn't matter if he's played midfield or not, if he can win his own ball and has the right attributes he can be moved there like we've seen with many players. Who would have thought Bernie Vince would be a starting four midfielder with a hard contested edge to his game when he was first drafted? I'm assuming this is Machsy? Sudden disappearance and then a Mach5 pops up and writes in such a similar manner.

Are you just having stabs in the dark now? Frost and O Mac are KP players. Bugg is a 184 cm midfielder/HBF. Frost is quick, O mac is definitely not and Bugg has average pace.

I disagree with your notion of 'star' player. I am talking about a good quality mid with a skill set that will compliment our midfield group. A player who's stronger attributes are speed/run and carry, kicking skills and decision making. Of course a star player would help. But I'm talking about someone like Yarran, Kade Kolodjashnij, Josh Kelly etc. You're basically saying you'd like to do what North Melbourne had done. Recruit an entire midfield brigade of Contested ball winners, all one-paced and all limited in skill level? They've since added Dal Santo and Higgens and we need to do the same to get the balance right. A big part of why we can't seem to move the ball on with skill, dare and run is because we don't have the cattle. Saying we need a couple of Reddens is ignoring the needs of our list and midfield group.

Haven't looked at many of this years crop. All I hope for is that we draft a mid who possesses both great foot skills and decision making skills and is really competitive. Darcy Tucker could be that. Even if he is rated outside the top 10. We all know how drafts go. Fyfe, Danger, Cyril, Parker, Neale,... All drafted outside the top 10. All great players. Let's just continue to get the picks right.

No you're right, we're not a retirement home.But we are a club who has lacked and still lack quality leaders in the 27 + age bracket who can consistently bring effort and the right mentality week-in and out. Jones is the only one who can be held in that regard. Cross and Vincent are the next two but we've had to bring them in. Garland Dunn Jamar They're all NQR with Dunn perhaps the only one who set a standard last year and has for the most part backed it up. I'd welcome someone like Adcock as long as his body is sound. His effort and competitiveness are contagious and I think he's the right candidate if we're looking at bringing in another experienced face. Do supporters get that we're still off the pace with quality leaders who provide consistent effort? I mean ffs Crossy runs around at a snails pace and his kicking gives me cardiac arrest but he provides so much care, will and desire to fight. Something that is immeasurabley important for our younger guys. He wouldn't be getting games at any other club right now which speaks volumes about the lack of decent leaders our club has had. Blokes like Adcock are the ones who should be direct replacements for players like Garland in terms of AFL experience, leadership and role models. I'd much rather him on our list than Garland or Jamar.

I'm constantly amazed by posts like these.If you really are incapable of watching Melbourne games and drawing your own conclusions as to what contributes to some of these ridiculous, out of context and almost pointless (in this case) stats, then this will be my last post to you. Sometimes I think stats without context are for supporters who can't quite workout what goes on during game day. First of all, as an example, I'd love for you to tell me why you believe Adelaide and North Melbourne's centre clearance counts are at the top of that list? I'd say it'd have something to do with both teams having the best tap to advantage ruckmen in the league. There's also a strange anomaly with Carlton sitting second on that centre clearance table yet they're below is on the ladder. I'm not going to continue because to me, all you've displayed is a number of ambiguous and misleading numbers without context to try and prove why we should trade for another one-dimensional contested ball winning player to a midfield group who is already too one-dimensional. I don't need 'stats' to see that. Here's an article for you and anyone else who consistently present these pointless tables of ambiguous numbers: Contested possession not critical: Hopkins

I disagree. It's not gaping. It was a couple of years ago and even last year was still pretty bad. We win enough of the ball more often than not. It's the possession that follows that makes the difference. We need to start treating possessions like gold. Contested ball winning kings with average disposal, speed and decision making definitely won't help that.

In saying all of that, the only real positive I see out of gaining a player like Redden would be to free up someone like Bernie to either play on a wing or behind the ball on a half back flank so that we can make more use of that beautiful kick he has. The fact that he started in the square so often this year meant we weren't able to utilise that kick of his as effectively as we could. He is definitely top 3 in kicking accuracy at our club, but being under so much pressure in the middle meant he'd bang it on the boot far too often and for little return. Look at me change my tune. But seriously, if that was the thought behind this hypothetical move, it would at least make more sense. I want Bernie out of the starting four by the start of next year.

Tyson has a long way to go before supporters start claiming him second best mid. I'm assuming you're basing that on last year's form? This year he's been bog ordinary in most games. Injury or not. Viney is consistently improving year upon year and this year has been a breakout of some sorts. Whilst I agree with you in that we're short on players with an ability to rotate through the midfield, it's also important we get the right mix of players in there with the right balance of attributes. Redden is a contested ball winning bull who is fairly one-dimensional. We have many of those. What we lack as 'Brayshaw self' alludes to is speed, class or skill within that midfield group. And they should all be pre-requisites for midfielders we target this off-season. Look at the gaping holes in our list. Look at the areas we struggle so badly in. We're crying out for dynamic and multi-attributed midfielders. Not more contested ball winning kings with little else to offer. Redden is exactly that.

I'd feel we've swapped a bag of Dutch Creams for a bag of Sebagos.

Agree with most except I honestly cannot see the club wanting both Garland and Howe to stay. I understand we're in talks with Howe presently so I'm imagining Garland will be moved on. We've heard time and time again from Roos that there are certain players who can't seem to get over 'the past', evidenced in the way that they play and carry themselves on-field. I maintain that our hugely dramatic and still incredibly embarrassing statistics, scorelines, skill-level, effort and willingness in patches and quarters of games this year is partially to do with having blokes like these guys. Howe is coming into some good form now but some of his efforts at the beginning of the season were pretty abysmal. Same goes with Garland. Senior figures who float in and out of games and play with such inconsistency in their best and worst absolutely contribute to our team doing the same thing during games this year. So my point is, whilst there will be some dead-wood moved on again, I believe one of Howe or Garland will go. And it's looking like it will be Garland. How much longer will we be 'carrying' players like this?

I'll never forget finding out that Woewy was off to Collingwood. I hated them enough as it was. But this was next level hate. To go to the footy as a kid, sit MCC, watch Woewy kick those running goals from fifty and turn to us/(me) with both arms waving is something I'll never forget.

Would love him. Perfect age bracket and another pillar to build the team around. Hogan and Tomlinson at FF and CHF. Would be healthy competition for Dawes too.

Ridiculous to say it was a 'mistake' letting Steph go in the first place. For one, was that even the case? Or did he ask to leave? Secondly, he had never shown any sort of consistency in form in any of the positions he was trialled in whilst he was on our list. He was very much in the same boat Fitzy is in at the moment and it was only once he moved clubs that he became Brisbane's number one ruck choice. It was clear he needed the move to kick into gear and I'm sure he realised he had to work a lot harder than he was etc etc. We've got Max, who providing he doesn't have any major injuries from here on out could become anything. I honestly believe that. What we need in support of Max is a relief ruckman/forward and that's something that Steph isn't. I have hopes that Max King could become that player, but over the off-season it'd be nice to snag someone to fill that role. Kreuzer would be ideal but I'm not sure whether that's at all possible.

No he's ooc at the end of 2017. Newscorp. Articles like these are for lols.

I think you mean to say we have players who play the HB flanker position.Garland, Howe, Grimes and Cross are hardly line-breaking hard running flankers. Lamumba was supposed to be one but for various reasons we haven't seen it this year. Seedsman is a quick line breaker with a long and penetrating kick but not overly accurate or damaging kick so I'd say we don't need him because we have Lamumba who hopefully next year will have a better year. I'm sure Collingwood saw Seedsman as a direct replacement for Lamumba positionally speaking but he hasn't come on this year. Looking at what our backline needs, it's clear we lack composure and skill back there. Garland again was back to his old ways on the weekend, consistently butchering the ball/throwing it straight on the boot when there's a handball on and covering the ground like a wounded elephant. Always looks [censored] when he's playing. We have really missed Salem back there this year and I hope we target another lethal left-footer who is either a really good runner or a great contested player. Both would be preferable. We're a one-dimensional unit back there and it needs addressing this off-season.

But omg Gysberts is gonna be the next Joel Corey!

I honestly can't tell if that's sarcasm or not but I hope it is. B grade utilities seem to be one of the more bountiful things that grow on trees.

What?I can only imagine where GC would be now had Gary Ablett not been there from the start. He is everything to that team. Do you not believe that he's single-handedly helped fast track and develop some of those younger players? Are you kidding me? Sydney made the Grand Final last year. Franklin was a big influence on their year. Are you saying that their form this year is because of some contractual issue? And the Chris Judd one has been answered. He was monumental for their club and did everything he could whilst his body was still able. You're honestly clutching at straws. None of that is logic. What is logical is that Dangerfield would HELP our cause and be nothing but a positive influence at our club. Period. Paying overs is something a club like us would have to do in order to get him here. Does that mean offering him a Franklin type deal? No. But I haven't read anybody suggesting that. You can still pay a player big dollars but also be mindful that there are young players on your list who will need to be offered significant contracts also. There are 'overs' and there are 'OVERS'. I don't know what you're worrying about.

Whilst this topic seems to be 'hot', I would like to say that I can't quite understand why posters would be against paying 'overs' to one of the star midfielders of this competition. I can't quite understand the logic. I mean, am I stating the bleeding obvious in saying that landing a player like Dangerfield would fast track the development of our younger and developing mids, have an influence in fast tracking us up the ladder and into finals which in turn would have a direct result on young budding stars like Hogan wanting to stay at the club? I can't see an argument against paying a player like him 'overs'. Unless of course it means we won't have enough money to offer Hogan for his next contract. Obviously the club wouldn't allow that to happen. I also doubt that many if any of the players on our list would be against the club paying big dollars to get a player like Damgerfield to our club. They've been starved of success for so long, I'm sure they'd welcome any him with open arms regardless of the amount.

Andddddddddd We're off!

It's clear there are a number of ingredients missing from our midfield in general but I agree with what most are saying. A-grade talent, depth and foot skills. Our depth has slowly increased, we still need an A-grader though and we really need to add someone with class and silky skills in there. I'm still hoping we can pull something out o the hat over trade/FA period in regards to an A grade mid. And I maintain that Yarran would be perfect as a line breaking/beautifully skilled mid/wingman. We're getting there. Wasn't that totally unhappy with yesterday. We showed grit.