hemingway

Smith wanted a change. He felt stale at the Hawks and a lot of his mates had departed. He had respect for Clarkson but there was not much love between them Its no surprise that he wanted to go to a successful club and had doubts about the Dees. I’m told that privately he has been critical of the Dees and some of their playing personnel. Players backchatting teammates etc. He only wanted another 2 years whichever club it was. And as reported it seems he wants a lifestyle change and to get away from Melbourne.

He wants money and success. So if the Cats can offer the same money or better, his choice is obvious.

Interesting point. You may be right. Success breeds success. I guess MFC in the 50s and 60s are an example. No lost hunger there. Norm did turnover players although the core remained over 10 years.

From memory, Smith performed well in their flag wins but your last comment is the issue. All things being equal, a younger player with more to prove makes more sense..

Over 200 games, 3 flags in a golden era for the Hawks and you don’t rate him? You may prefer Higgins but he is not twice the player. I can understand that Higgins has more long term value due to age and games played but is he what we need in 2021? My main concern is that Smith is at the end of his career and is playing for his pay cheque rather than his future. He has nothing to prove and already has 3 flags under his belt. Hard to imagine him retaining the hunger to maintain form and fitness. He may play a role but will it be enough to make a significant difference?

The pleasing thing so far is that there is little evidence that players want to leave the club. The reverse. A good sign and shows a well managed process in place devoid of rumours and media talk.

You are correct

Interesting point Rocky. I think all players are on the radar of other clubs and they speak to their managers to get a sense of whether a player has an interest in talking. We have always moved reasonably quickly to lock away for 2-5 seasons our best players. And clearly we have paid market or above market rates to do it. At the same time, the footy department seems to have handled retention and contract issues very well over recent years. On most occasions, the club and player have respectfully followed the process and kept differences out of the media. It suggests that good relationships exist between all parties.

Every year there are rumours. Although the nature of the industry with players seeking better deals, clubs seeking improvement in lists via trading , agents seeking top dollar and footy media needing to break stories means that we have to put up with more talk more of the time. There will always be players who move to chase dollars and success. Think of Wells and Alves back in the 70s. There have been plenty of footballers who have come to Melbourne despite our lack of success. You can name them. Perhaps it’s getting worse but in the main what’s got worse is the speculation, media beat-ups, and talk. And with clubs always looking at trade opportunities it encourages the talk feast. Even if we become a successful club, there will be talk about trading in and out of clubs. Look at the Hawks, GWS, Geelong etc. Given all the rumours and talk, it is surprising that there is not more player movement. There is always a big move ie Lynch but generally the talk outweighs the actuality. Sure success is a binding agent but most players make a considered judgement about their futures based on a range of factors. Is the club treating its players fairly? Is it a good place to be? Does the player think that he is getting a fair deal from the coach? Are there solid relationships between players, coaches and staff? Does the club have a good culture? Anyway, we should take all the talk with a grain of salt. Not get complacent because there is always change, but also not get worked up about it.

Interesting and sobering stats. The majority don’t make it so let’s be nice and not use terms like spuds and duds. Otherwise you can apply these derogatory terms to most of us.

Disappointing year for all those delisted. Most have had little or no opportunity to prove themselves. By in large selectors have stuck to the same group of players, in some cases, irrespective of form. Opinions can be formed by past seasons and training form, but there is nothing like current match day form to guide selection. Very frustrating for those discarded. There are others who have enjoyed considerable time on the list but based on form could be on the delist but will survive to fight another day. It is going to be interesting to see the outcome for a number of higher profile top 22 players.

Agree. Irrespective of opinions about the merits of a player, always a sad time to see players depart and the end of individual aspirations and dreams. Its a time for supporters to be generous in their comments about players. At the end of the day, they are being sacked, and for the individual that brings a lot of disappointment and grief. With more delistings to follow, there will be a lot more grief involving the players, their teammates and their families. Lets use social media in a respectful and positive way by thanking them for their efforts. At the end of the day they are good human beings and have for a short part of their life been Demons.

Picket, cheer up, it’s not that bad surely. You could be dead.

Despite his age, I would take him in a heartbeat. He had a later start than most AFL players playing country footy in Albury up to 20 years of age. He has had no serious injuries and he retains his speed and run. He is a brilliant link player and kick. He would be a great mentor for younger players. In fact everything we are looking for in a player. He still has 2 or 3 years left if he wants to continue. A two year contract would be a good option. However, I suspect that he will remain at the Hawks unless he gets a huge offer from a successful club, although Carlton may be an option. There was some thought that he may leave over this years preseason but Clarko wanted to keep him and the loyalty factor came into play. However, I could see him leave the Hawks after their poor season. I’m sure Isaac would feel that he has done his duty by now. All things being equal he would be a great acquisition but all things are not equal. We are not seen as a successful club or one on the cusp of success and we are unlikely to have the coin unless someone like Viney flees the camp.

At an emotional level I would hate to see Viney go. He is Melbourne and the Viney name is Melbourne. However, you can’t blame a player craving success. Sadly, if he decides to go, it indicates that may also be tired of playing for an unsuccessful team and putting up with the negativity. He probably also has a view that a turnaround and a Melbourne flag are unlikely. He may be disappointed and even resentful with losing the captaincy. He simply may see the opportunity to cash in before it’s too late. At 26 is body is waning. In 2 or 3 years he may have little value to another club and have a broken down body. Rationally a move makes sense. Just like Isaac Smith who may want to leave the Hawks after great service to that club and seeing the club spiral down. Isaac is a lot older but his body in better shape than Vineys. Isaac still has his speed and disposal skills, and sublime kicking ability. And I have heard it said that he wants to cash in before the end of his career. So I suspect Viney may well want to cash in before it’s too late and taste finals success. So Geelong makes sense. Going to an unsuccessful club would make no sense. However, we lose a heart and soul player and a high possession player irrespective of his poor disposal. Viney is a player that can win a game in the clinches through sheer will and intensity. Could not blame him for wanting to move on. Todd may also see the sense of a move and have a fresh start without the Melbourne/Viney cloud over his head.

You need a period of sustained success so that winning becomes the norm and losing becomes the exception. You get use to the feeling of winning, you end up hating to lose. You have to fear losing.

Interest and care factor zero. The on-going disappointments have done their damage.

Agreed. Overall our list is ordinary. Certainly not a list that will bring sustained success. Far too many players who don’t get enough of the pill and whose skills are poor.

So many reasons why you can expect a thrashing. Too depressing to even discuss. Season over.

Forget that ANB is Melbourne. If you just look at the outcomes the disparity is simply staggering. We accept that the process is not perfect and we are not dealing with fine points of constitutional law, and certainly those in charge do not have the intellect of High Court judges, but we are simply talking about the complete lack of consistency and common sense. Staggering.

I concur. Absolutely nailed it.

Some excellent posts. We are a product of our times. We accept now that this country and all others have accepted, tolerated and reinforced racism. We accept that governments, institutions and individuals all had a popular and prevailing view of indigenous populations, which went to genetics, appearance and customs. Differences in values and behaviours all formed part of our beliefs. With the benefit of time, education and understanding , the majority of us accept that our beliefs of yesteryear were sadly wrong, and lead to prejudice, intolerance and incorrect government policies. In many cases, White Australia thought it was doing the right thing when clearly this was not the case. Regarding footy, racial stereotypes persisted for a long time. Going walkabout was the term commonly used to describe indigenous players. Not tough enough was another. Now we recognise that all clubs seek to recruit talented indigenous players because of their X factor. The ability to see the game differently, to instinctively know where the ball is going and to create something special. What Demon supporter can forget the magic of Jeff Farmer. He was truly a wizard. At the same time, we can view things differently and not be seen as a racist. The Adam Goodes story is a case in point. Sure the ignorant and stupid minority used racist taunts and descriptions. Perhaps some booed him because of the colour of his skin. But many booed him simply because of the way he played. They would have booed him whether he was white or black. Footy spectators have always responded negatively to those traits that are inconsistent with the prevailing view of the way footy should be played. Show boating, staging, appealing to the umpire, the kick to me thing. The show pony has always attracted the ire of the crowd. Think of the way that opposition supporters booed Buckley when he played. Think of his nick name. Fig jam. Perhaps if he was black many would regard it as a racist view or have racist undertones. Think of the way opposition supporters abused Big Carl or Rodney Grinter. They were regarded as dirty players and at times played not only outside the rules but outside the values and moral code regarding the way the game should be played. In the case of Robbie Muir, he played in a similar vein to many others. However, there are rules and we expect transgressors to be punished for doing the wrong thing. So we need understanding and balance. Understanding the childhood influences, the prejudice and an appreciation that difference is sometimes not tolerated by the mainstream. But for the game to function we need rules and a moral compass that forms part of the way we view the game and how it should be played. Was Muir abused and taunted because of the colour of his skin or the way he played the game. For some it was one or the other or a combination of both. But we need understanding and a sense of balance in forming our views and opinions. Some times things can be seen in black and white terms ( yes, including our view of Collingwood!) but most of the time we need to explore and understand all the shades of grey. The uncertainties are what life is all about.

Interesting stuff AF. A good coach has to lead his players and his team. He or she needs to be knowledgeable, experienced, intelligent, insightful, flexible and empathetic. They need to know their players and know their buttons. They need to practice the old adage of different strokes for different folks. Most good coaches have this ability and insight regarding player management. In other words they are good people managers. The great Norm Smith despite his image as an authoritarian, used different approaches with different players. He would pick out and criticise Barassi because he knew that he reacted to personal criticism. Anger drove Barass on the field. However, he would leave others, like Brian Dixon and the scholarly Geoff Tunbridge well alone. Both were secondary school teachers and not receptive to a roast. Tunna told me once that Norm never criticised him even when he was having a shocker. He knew that Tunna was a free spirit who may not get a kick for 3/4 of the game but could win the match with 2 or 3 goals in the last quarter. Good coaches have the ability to inspire individual players to perform their best for the team. At the end of the day, the coach has to have a good list. Norm Smith had great lists but in his early coaching days at Fitzroy and Melbourne, he struggled. Irrespective of the tragic end to his coaching days at Melbourne, the days of the great Demon sides were over and arguably Norm’s remarkable record would have suffered if he had continued to coach MFC. There is no doubt that times have changed and coaches can no longer abuse or intimidate players. About 6 years ago, Ron Barassi told me that he realised that his coaching days were over at Sydney when he was giving his young players a spray and realised that they were not listening or paying any attention.

Well said. Some really disrespectful comments on this thread. The club needs to handle this whole matter with dignity and respect. He should not be gifted games and I’m sure he would not want that. He needs to earn his spot and if not the case, he needs to be embraced and treated with decency and an acknowledgement of his service and loyalty.

Had forgotten, thanks Biff, that explains everything. Wallace came very close to death that day.