18 minutes ago, Macca said:

Oliver hasn't played at all well for 3 years ... C- grading when factoring in the $Millions we've given him for 'supposed' elite performance

And we're now paying him $3.5Million to play elsewhere

The.Worst.Contract.Ever

And nothing comes close

By comparison, the Walsh contract is low risk

Walsh also adds a lot in terms of character, unselfishness and leadership. He's a team player and a good footballer

The sort of player that any sort of club needs ... a bit like our acquisition of Jack Steele (4 years)

People of good character

Oliver? The antitheses

Mmmmm dunno Macca. We signed Oliver in 2022 when he was easily one of, if not, the best players in the league. What came afterwards is immaterial to the standing he had at that time that we signed him as obviously nobody could’ve predicted the meltdown to come. He had just come off a premiership, it was before our straight sets exit of 22’ and 23’ finals. He also won coaches MVP 21 and 22.

The player Oliver was in 2022 vs the player (excluding leadership capabilities) Walsh is now, is worlds apart. Walsh has never been at Oliver’s elite level and injury wise alone, there’s 2 seasons worth of evidence that his playing capability has been affected.

There’s more chance Walsh’s body breaks down by the time he’s 31 than there is him becoming a dominant top 10 player for the next 5 years.

Was there anyone in 2022 sounding the alarm about Oliver explicitly being a massive risk?

Walsh has averaged 19 games per season since he stated playing ... so he's missed 4 or 5 games per year (when factoring in finals)

When Cornes critiques anything to do with football or footballers he argues in a completely one-sided way ... that's what shock-jocks do. They are like politicians in that sense

Never balanced, never fair but highly influential for those that want to buy-in.

4 minutes ago, BoBo said:

Mmmmm dunno Macca. We signed Oliver in 2022 when he was easily one of, if not, the best players in the league. What came afterwards is immaterial to the standing he had at that time that we signed him as obviously nobody could’ve predicted the meltdown to come. He had just come off a premiership, it was before our straight sets exit of 22’ and 23’ finals. He also won coaches MVP 21 and 22.

The player Oliver was in 2022 vs the player (excluding leadership capabilities) Walsh is now, is worlds apart. Walsh has never been at Oliver’s elite level and injury wise alone, there’s 2 seasons worth of evidence that his playing capability has been affected.

There’s more chance Walsh’s body breaks down by the time he’s 31 than there is him becoming a dominant top 10 player for the next 5 years.

Was there anyone in 2022 sounding the alarm about Oliver explicitly being a massive risk?

Well, I'm arguing outcomes (Oliver) and potential outcomes (Walsh)

Yes, it's true that Oliver was at the top of his game but if things go pear-shaped, it's still an accountable outcome

I can't imagine the Walsh contract heading the same way. Even if he only has 1 top year that will exceed the Oliver contract (not one top year)

On outcomes, the Blues are likely to be miles ahead of where we ended up

We're up for $3.5Million for the next 5 years (for diddly-squat)

Carlton? Who knows but will it involve $Millions in subsidies? Highly doubtful

In the end it all comes down to value for money

Oliver - Massive failure. Epic. And we got nothing for him as well

As previously stated, it's the biggest contract failure I've ever seen

Walsh - Risky yes but not that risky. All contracts are risky

If Oliver plays well at the Giants it won't count. He needed to do it at the Demons

Walsh is a future captain and highly regarded. The back complaint is the risk but we'll know more by seasons end

Luke Jackson got an 8 or 9 year deal and even McVee got 5 years at Freo (after a forgettable year in 2025)

There are numerous long term deals being handed out. We did it with Petracca, Oliver, Viney, Brayshaw & Kozzie. In 2024 we extended JVR's contract until the end of 2029

Warranted? In today's environment, probably

1 hour ago, titan_uranus said:

It wouldn’t be a Demonland thread without a classic @Bring-Back-Powell single stat/match reference to make a point.

That game was 2.5 years ago. Clubs of course don’t make decisions based on one game. They also don’t make decisions based on form from 2.5 years ago. If they did, we’d still have Trac and Oliver on our list.

Alternatively, perhaps someone should offer Joel Amartey the next biggest contract in the AFL, given in Round 14 2024 he kicked 9 goals in a game.

Firstly, you do realise Walsh has put in a little more body of work over his career than just the 2023 semi final.

Secondly, clubs like Geelong, Hawthorn and St Kilda have gone super hard for him to suggest that he would’ve gotten a very long term contract elsewhere in order to turn his head.

Thirdly Amartey isn’t in the same stratosphere as Walsh as a player. One player has the runs on the board. The other plays a couple of good games a year.

2 minutes ago, Macca said:

Walsh has averaged 19 games per season since he stated playing ... so he's missed 4 or 5 games per year (when factoring in finals)

When Cornes critiques anything to do with football or footballers he argues in a completely one-sided way ... that's what shock-jocks do. They are like politicians in that sense

Never balanced, never fair but highly influential for those that want to buy-in.

Well, I'm arguing outcomes (Oliver) and potential outcomes (Walsh)

Yes, it's true that Oliver was at the top of his game but if things go pear-shaped, it's still an accountable outcome

I can't imagine the Walsh contract heading the same way. Even if he only has 1 top year that will exceed the Oliver contract (not one top year)

On outcomes, the Blues are likely to be miles ahead of where we ended up

We're up for $3.5Million for the next 5 years (for diddly-squat)

Carlton? Who knows but will it involve $Millions in subsidies? Highly doubtful

Yes, if things go pear shaped it is an accountable outcome.

So given Walsh’s injury, it’s not a wildly improbable outcome that he doesn’t play footy with 3-4 years left of his contract. Prospectively, $3.6-4.8million dollars to pay. Hell it’s a disc injury so he could injure it again in 2 years and he’s stuffed. Then it’s 6 years to pay.

Not much point in comparing things that have happened vs things that haven’t so I guess we’ll see how it plays out.

1 minute ago, BoBo said:

Yes, if things go pear shaped it is an accountable outcome.

So given Walsh’s injury, it’s not a wildly improbable outcome that he doesn’t play footy with 3-4 years left of his contract. Prospectively, $3.6-4.8million dollars to pay. Hell it’s a disc injury so he could injure it again in 2 years and he’s stuffed. Then it’s 6 years to pay.

Not much point in comparing things that have happened vs things that haven’t so I guess we’ll see how it plays out.

BoBo, I keep going back to the current environment of these long contracts and why all the clubs are offering them (long term deals)

The top players are getting what they want as the clubs just don't have a hold of the top players anymore. If you don't secure them, they'll walk.

And even if you have them secured, they can still walk (Petracca)

Player agents are probably going to the clubs with info that 'Such & such' a club are offering this, and another club is offering this

Before you know it, it's a virtual auction (wittin the 4 walls)

As @Bring-Back-Powell remarked above, it looks like Walsh (or his agent) were fielding offers from other clubs (with long term deals)*

As Gerard Healy said today, you need to keep players around the club that are 'the club'. It can't be all rookies, draftees and low-on-experience types

*The Viney extension happened soon after when North were making overtures for his services

1 hour ago, Macca said:

What about the Viney extension? 4 extra years and he might already be cooked*

We can hardly point point the finger when we're not very flash ourselves

The Brayshaw payout hurts as well in terms of cap space**

But thankfully, the Petracca contract was taken up by the Coasters (as well as gifting us 3 first rounders)

*I really hope he gets back to his best

**That lack of cap space could cost us the chance at a decent free agent

Viney, Brayshaw, and Olivers contract, just terrible mismanagement.

Viney swindled the club, Oliver didn't warrant the dollars (behavioural issues were well known), and Brayshaw we signed to a huge deal after concussion issues were already concerning. We will still feel the effects of those deals, however, Petracca upholding his part of the deal, has allowed us to cover for the other bad contracts. Great clubs don't make the mistakes we've made.

A basic, simple, hypothetical ...

So Sam Walsh 'was' out of contract at the end of 2027

2 clubs offer 7 - 8 year deals but Carlton only want to offer 5 years

Sam's agent fronts the Blues and says unless you offer him 8 years, he'll request a trade at the end of 2027

Blues buckle and offer the 8 year extension to Walsh

Walsh signs

Edited yesterday at 11:371 day by Macca

8 minutes ago, VoiceOfReason said:

Viney, Brayshaw, and Olivers contract, just terrible mismanagement.

Viney swindled the club, Oliver didn't warrant the dollars (behavioural issues were well known), and Brayshaw we signed to a huge deal after concussion issues were already concerning. We will still feel the effects of those deals, however, Petracca upholding his part of the deal, has allowed us to cover for the other bad contracts. Great clubs don't make the mistakes we've made.

I'm happy to admit that there is a bit of bad luck as well ... for instance, no one could possibly foretell what was going to happen with Clarrie. Not in a blue fit

With Brayshaw, he would probably still be playing if he wasn't king hit by a thug. His concussions were an issue but he was being managed well, so much so, that he hadn't missed a game since 2020 (played 3 full seasons (2021-2023)

But we jumped a bit early with Viney in my view. He was never leaving but did win the B & F in the year that his contract was extended (2024)

My argument on this thread is more so that why are we pointing the finger at Carlton & Walsh when all the clubs are handing out long contracts?

We got lucky with Petracca ... GC overpaid for him, in my view

15 hours ago, old dee said:

Restriction of trade it will never happen. What they should change is this nonsense of players changing clubs and keeping the existing contract. You change clubs you should have to negotiate a new contract with the new club or stay with the existing club on your contract.

I never understood why this isn't the case. Then again I never understood why you have a contract that is meaningless anyway, player can just bugger off whenever they feel like it.

6 hours ago, Macca said:

BoBo, I keep going back to the current environment of these long contracts and why all the clubs are offering them (long term deals)

The top players are getting what they want as the clubs just don't have a hold of the top players anymore. If you don't secure them, they'll walk.

And even if you have them secured, they can still walk (Petracca)

Player agents are probably going to the clubs with info that 'Such & such' a club are offering this, and another club is offering this

Before you know it, it's a virtual auction (wittin the 4 walls)

As @Bring-Back-Powell remarked above, it looks like Walsh (or his agent) were fielding offers from other clubs (with long term deals)*

As Gerard Healy said today, you need to keep players around the club that are 'the club'. It can't be all rookies, draftees and low-on-experience types

*The Viney extension happened soon after when North were making overtures for his services

Yeah that’s fair and the realities of player power is undeniable. If I was in Carlton’s shoes, 6 years for $1.1million a season would’ve been my ceiling. If other clubs want to go higher and longer, that’s their prerogative.

Put it this way, hypothetically, if we didn’t pick up Steele and we had offered Walsh $10 million for 8 years, would you be happy with that? I’d be pretty angry, haha

4 minutes ago, BoBo said:

Yeah that’s fair and the realities of player power is undeniable. If I was in Carlton’s shoes, 6 years for $1.1million a season would’ve been my ceiling. If other clubs want to go higher and longer, that’s their prerogative.

Put it this way, hypothetically, if we didn’t pick up Steele and we had offered Walsh $10 million for 8 years, would you be happy with that? I’d be pretty angry, haha

In Carlton's eyes, they don't want to lose Walsh

Thus, the contract

3, 4 or 5 year deals have been replaced with 5, 6, 7 or even 8 year deals ... that's the market place

For instance, 10 years ago McVee would not have been offered a 5 year deal ... 3 years more like it

And we let McVee go, in my view

Edited 15 hours ago15 hr by Macca

14 hours ago, Adam The God said:

Clarry was the best player in the comp in 2022, and arguably in 2021 too.

He was also brilliant in the first 10 games of 2023. So saying he hasn't played well for three years is not really correct.

Macca is the Godfather of spin and Rhetoric!

3 hours ago, AzzKikA said:

I never understood why this isn't the case. Then again I never understood why you have a contract that is meaningless anyway, player can just bugger off whenever they feel like it.

It depends on the circumstances; eg Grundy, Clarry vs Trac as some players were forced out whereas Trac essentially broke his contractual commitments.

Should players who voluntarily leave a club be made buy themselves out of the contract with the money they're getting paid from their new club? The contractual salary probably shouldn't remain the liability of the club they've left.

1 hour ago, picket fence said:

Macca is the Godfather of spin and Rhetoric!

And you?

You create a whipping boy and then we hear about it ... 1000's of times (All Caps)

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Edited 12 hours ago12 hr by Macca

17 hours ago, Macca said:

Walsh also adds a lot in terms of character, unselfishness and leadership. He's a team player and a good footballer

The sort of player that any sort of club needs ... a bit like our acquisition of Jack Steele (4 years)

People of good character

This!

Walsh is valued internally for his mentality, professional approach to training, competetive nature and leadership qualities. He is Carlton's next captain. This is all factored into his contract price & length.

29 minutes ago, No. 31 said:

This!

Walsh is valued internally for his mentality, professional approach to training, competetive nature and leadership qualities. He is Carlton's next captain. This is all factored into his contract price & length.

Zak Butters - 9 or 10 years minimum? $16Million - $20Million?

Might even remain at Port with that sort of contract

22 hours ago, Bring-Back-Powell said:

Sam Walsh beat us in the 2023 semi final with 34 touches and 2 goals on his way to a Gary Ayres medal for player of the finals series.

I'd look at others if you're going with the overrated, mediocre, or half as good as Kozzy tags.

We beat ourselves that night and the week before.

33 minutes ago, YesitwasaWin4theAges said:

We beat ourselves that night and the week before.

Being reduced to a having a D Grade forward line in the 2023 finals series was the hindrance

All our first choice forwards were either out injured, out suspended or played injured

The replacement forward line couldn't kick straight

Not an excuse but a reason

By contrast, we had zero excuses in 2022

Won our first 10 then went 6 & 8

Should have won back-to-back flags, we got lazy with a near full list

And then the Karma injury bus hits in 2023

You've got to take your chances when the chances appear because you don't get many (chances)

Now we're in a rebuild

Edited 9 hours ago9 hr by Macca

Just to be clear, I didn’t start the thread to criticise the Walsh deal, but rather to say that Cornes, if being consistent, would attack Carlton over it.

Whether it’s a good deal for Carlton will become evident in the years to come.

2 minutes ago, Redleg said:

Just to be clear, I didn’t start the thread to criticise the Walsh deal, but rather to say that Cornes, if being consistent, would attack Carlton over it.

Whether it’s a good deal for Carlton will become evident in the years to come.

Well, I guess he was consistent.

2 hours ago, YesitwasaWin4theAges said:

We beat ourselves that night and the week before.

Yes we kicked ourselves out of the contest and only have ourselves to blame that night. (Pies were too good for us the week before as evidenced by a 5 goal lead at 3 qtr time)

Walsh playing one of the great finals in recent years really didn't help matters though.

If Walsh plays 23 games this year, I see Carlton making top 10 at a minimum. He's an outstanding midfielder.

Stand by for the huge contract extension for Nick Daicos.

He is obviously angling for it, after floating interest in the Tassie Devils.

Two minutes into this practice game he has come off hurt or injured after contact on a contest!

Good player but he can barely get on the park. Eight years is an eternity for someone who’s body doesn’t let them play.