1 hour ago, RedLegs23 said:

Awesome to hear rjay. You mind telling us what you saw? Haven’t seen any of the game. Thanks

He was strong around the ball, used the ball well off both feet, picked good options and in the air whilst not taking mark of the year was able to halve contests. Looked a well rounded player.

He seems to have struggled settling at AFL level so this finals series could be a good lead in for him coming into next season.

We have a lot to gain from staying in this series...good for the development of Kolt, Adams, Culley and Howes along with a new look at Laurie for the incoming coach.

3 minutes ago, rjay said:

He was strong around the ball, used the ball well off both feet, picked good options and in the air whilst not taking mark of the year was able to halve contests. Looked a well rounded player.

He seems to have struggled settling at AFL level so this finals series could be a good lead in for him coming into next season.

We have a lot to gain from staying in this series...good for the development of Kolt, Adams, Culley and Howes along with a new look at Laurie for the incoming coach.

I think he looked more at home as a hunter - or at the least someone who's role was to be in the chain - compared to how he looked in the AFL high half forward role which is more about holding structure and covering ground and then being ready to receive when the opportunity presents.

19 hours ago, Fritta and Turner said:

I saw Ghosty on the telly

Our old Rank Arena used to do that.

Checked bunny ears?

19 hours ago, goodwindees said:

Unless the AFL have changed the rule recently, a Ruckman can’t tap the ball over the line on the full from a ball up.

Because that was 1 metre out he didn’t have the option of thumping if through.

I totally agree with you Jaded that in a 7 win season the Club didn’t take the opportunity to get games into Bailey Laurie at the expense of Sparrow or Sharp at the very least.

In my view, in a 7 win season, selection was so predictable and boring

19 hours ago, sue said:

I was under the impression that the attacking ruck was allowed to do so and score a point? But that doesn't makes sense. (That's why I think it may be true @AFLrules).

It’s even worse than that. Or at least designed to confuse.

Around the ground, at throw ins or ruck contests, the rucks are not allowed to hit the ball out on the full.

However, they can hit the ball towards the boundary line – you will get a lot of players appealing for a free kick because of this.

It gets more difficult when umpires decide to throw the ball up right next to the goals. Obviously, you cannot hit the ball through on the full, however, you should be able to hit it towards the goal if one of your players is there. The problem with this is that it could well be decided that you were rushing the ball through, and a free kick awarded against.

18 hours ago, Neil Crompton said:

what happened to Verrell?

18 hours ago, Ghostwriter said:

No idea. We were wondering the same thing.

19 hours ago, Ghostwriter said:

No Clarrie

15 hours ago, monoccular said:

Interesting that a KP defender did any ruck work at all, unless I guess his direct opponent did the same.

Any observations on Pup Brown or Verrell?

15 hours ago, Ghostwriter said:

Fish was nowhere to be seen.

15 hours ago, Harvey Wallbanger said:

Verrall didn't play - late out. Brown was solid, 18 disposals and a goal.

Just heard there were quite a few sick boys last week – some who played really well yesterday. Unfortunately, Fish has been now caught by the flu. Hopefully better next week, and hopefully nobody else gets it.

3 hours ago, rjay said:

He was strong around the ball, used the ball well off both feet, picked good options and in the air whilst not taking mark of the year was able to halve contests. Looked a well rounded player.

He seems to have struggled settling at AFL level so this finals series could be a good lead in for him coming into next season.

We have a lot to gain from staying in this series...good for the development of Kolt, Adams, Culley and Howes along with a new look at Laurie for the incoming coach.

Given his draft combine results where he scored top 10 in endurance and speed and second in agility and his appetite for the physical stuff he ticks all the boxes. Perhaps with a solid, injury free preseason he will be ready to go.

2 hours ago, DiscoStu17 said:

It’s even worse than that. Or at least designed to confuse.

Around the ground, at throw ins or ruck contests, the rucks are not allowed to hit the ball out on the full.

However, they can hit the ball towards the boundary line – you will get a lot of players appealing for a free kick because of this.

It gets more difficult when umpires decide to throw the ball up right next to the goals. Obviously, you cannot hit the ball through on the full, however, you should be able to hit it towards the goal if one of your players is there. The problem with this is that it could well be decided that you were rushing the ball through, and a free kick awarded against.

so drop the ball to your feet where the crowd can force it over

1 hour ago, daisycutter said:

so drop the ball to your feet where the crowd can force it over

But not let them soccer it through whatever you do, or they will look like a dill.

8 hours ago, whatwhat say what said:

we have definitely transitioned away from the bomb-to-gawn-on-the-wings style of returning the ball from behinds style of play

it is still used on occasion, but nothing like as often as 2020-2023 - of course, that was also the successful period of goodwin's reign!

@WheeloRatings - do you have stats on who returns the ball for kick-ins, and whether they go long / short etc.?

Yes I do. To determine distance, I have looked at the location of the first event after the kick-in (e.g. mark, spoil, out of bounds, etc) and the distance of that event from the defensive goal. I have grouped distance into 0-40 metres from defensive goal, 40-60 metres, and 60+ metres.

Here is the proportion of Melbourne's kick-ins by distance and season, and the change from 2023 to 2024 is evident. There is in increased tendency for all teams to go short with the kick-in.

Lastly, I have looked at this for each Melbourne player who has taken 10+ kick-ins in a season.

MELBOURNE - Distance from defensive goal following a kick-in, by season

Season	0 - 40m	40 - 60m	60+ m
2021	27.7	9.9	62.3
2022	31.5	7.8	60.7
2023	32.6	9.3	58.1
2024	48.1	16.6	35.3
2025	53.0	10.3	36.6

ALL TEAMS - Distance from defensive goal following a kick-in, by season

Season	0 - 40m	40 - 60m	60+ m
2021	31.7	19.3	49.0
2022	34.6	18.0	47.4
2023	37.1	17.2	45.7
2024	39.2	19.4	41.4
2025	40.9	18.0	41.2

MELBOURNE - Distance from defensive goal following a kick-in, by season and player (10+ kick-ins for the season)

Player	Kick-Ins	0 - 40m	40 - 60m	60+ m
2021
Steven May	114	36.0	8.8	55.3
Christian Salem	47	14.9	10.6	74.5
Trent Rivers	15	0.0	26.7	73.3
2022
Steven May	151	31.8	5.3	62.9
Michael Hibberd	23	39.1	13.0	47.8
Christian Salem	17	35.3	11.8	52.9
Jake Bowey	10	20.0	30.0	50.0
2023
Steven May	124	34.7	12.1	53.2
Jake Bowey	44	34.1	4.5	61.4
Trent Rivers	20	20.0	15.0	65.0
Christian Salem	16	25.0	0.0	75.0
Adam Tomlinson	13	38.5	7.7	53.8
2024
Steven May	99	57.6	14.1	28.3
Judd McVee	54	51.9	16.7	31.5
Jake Bowey	29	51.7	6.9	41.4
Christian Salem	15	20.0	20.0	60.0
Tom McDonald	13	38.5	23.1	38.5
Trent Rivers	12	8.3	41.7	50.0
Adam Tomlinson	11	36.4	9.1	54.5
2025
Steven May	78	57.7	9.0	33.3
Jake Bowey	71	50.7	9.9	39.4
Christian Salem	51	60.8	11.8	27.5
Trent Rivers	19	31.6	15.8	52.6

10 hours ago, Neil Crompton said:

T, I actually think there are two - the other one hasn’t played seniors but should have if not for injury.

Neil that's got me scratching my cranium. From the clues provided Young Will Verrall? Time at the weights has increased his strength at the contest. He can hold his ground, ruck craft has come on nicely too. Needs to develop his game around the ground though. Add more strings for his bow. Otherwise Oliver Sestan? Plently of praise for his return game yesterday.

If a picture is worth a thousand words? Luker Kentfield has some smoke about him. Great physique, given some terrific cameo performances at VFL level. Has some inner steel about him. Where there's smoke there's fire. Going to enjoy Casey's finals campaign. Bring on '26.

Edited 18 hours ago18 hr by Tarax Club

On 30/08/2025 at 16:53, whatwhat say what said:

but we can presumably match with points etc - same as any other father-son selection

No, the father son boat has sailed

9 hours ago, Viscount Cardwell said:

So can any club then

Yup

14 minutes ago, Travy14 said:

No, the father son boat has sailed

No it hasn’t.

2 hours ago, WheeloRatings said:

Yes I do. To determine distance, I have looked at the location of the first event after the kick-in (e.g. mark, spoil, out of bounds, etc) and the distance of that event from the defensive goal. I have grouped distance into 0-40 metres from defensive goal, 40-60 metres, and 60+ metres.

Here is the proportion of Melbourne's kick-ins by distance and season, and the change from 2023 to 2024 is evident. There is in increased tendency for all teams to go short with the kick-in.

Lastly, I have looked at this for each Melbourne player who has taken 10+ kick-ins in a season.

MELBOURNE - Distance from defensive goal following a kick-in, by season

Season	0 - 40m	40 - 60m	60+ m
2021	27.7	9.9	62.3
2022	31.5	7.8	60.7
2023	32.6	9.3	58.1
2024	48.1	16.6	35.3
2025	53.0	10.3	36.6

ALL TEAMS - Distance from defensive goal following a kick-in, by season

Season	0 - 40m	40 - 60m	60+ m
2021	31.7	19.3	49.0
2022	34.6	18.0	47.4
2023	37.1	17.2	45.7
2024	39.2	19.4	41.4
2025	40.9	18.0	41.2

MELBOURNE - Distance from defensive goal following a kick-in, by season and player (10+ kick-ins for the season)

Player	Kick-Ins	0 - 40m	40 - 60m	60+ m
2021
Steven May	114	36.0	8.8	55.3
Christian Salem	47	14.9	10.6	74.5
Trent Rivers	15	0.0	26.7	73.3
2022
Steven May	151	31.8	5.3	62.9
Michael Hibberd	23	39.1	13.0	47.8
Christian Salem	17	35.3	11.8	52.9
Jake Bowey	10	20.0	30.0	50.0
2023
Steven May	124	34.7	12.1	53.2
Jake Bowey	44	34.1	4.5	61.4
Trent Rivers	20	20.0	15.0	65.0
Christian Salem	16	25.0	0.0	75.0
Adam Tomlinson	13	38.5	7.7	53.8
2024
Steven May	99	57.6	14.1	28.3
Judd McVee	54	51.9	16.7	31.5
Jake Bowey	29	51.7	6.9	41.4
Christian Salem	15	20.0	20.0	60.0
Tom McDonald	13	38.5	23.1	38.5
Trent Rivers	12	8.3	41.7	50.0
Adam Tomlinson	11	36.4	9.1	54.5
2025
Steven May	78	57.7	9.0	33.3
Jake Bowey	71	50.7	9.9	39.4
Christian Salem	51	60.8	11.8	27.5
Trent Rivers	19	31.6	15.8	52.6

Brilliant work, and yes, I can see the change. Just a gut feel, but has going short seen an increase in turnovers, especially from May?

2 hours ago, WheeloRatings said:

Yes I do. To determine distance, I have looked at the location of the first event after the kick-in (e.g. mark, spoil, out of bounds, etc) and the distance of that event from the defensive goal. I have grouped distance into 0-40 metres from defensive goal, 40-60 metres, and 60+ metres.

Here is the proportion of Melbourne's kick-ins by distance and season, and the change from 2023 to 2024 is evident. There is in increased tendency for all teams to go short with the kick-in.

Lastly, I have looked at this for each Melbourne player who has taken 10+ kick-ins in a season.

MELBOURNE - Distance from defensive goal following a kick-in, by season

Season	0 - 40m	40 - 60m	60+ m
2021	27.7	9.9	62.3
2022	31.5	7.8	60.7
2023	32.6	9.3	58.1
2024	48.1	16.6	35.3
2025	53.0	10.3	36.6

ALL TEAMS - Distance from defensive goal following a kick-in, by season

Season	0 - 40m	40 - 60m	60+ m
2021	31.7	19.3	49.0
2022	34.6	18.0	47.4
2023	37.1	17.2	45.7
2024	39.2	19.4	41.4
2025	40.9	18.0	41.2

MELBOURNE - Distance from defensive goal following a kick-in, by season and player (10+ kick-ins for the season)

Player	Kick-Ins	0 - 40m	40 - 60m	60+ m
2021
Steven May	114	36.0	8.8	55.3
Christian Salem	47	14.9	10.6	74.5
Trent Rivers	15	0.0	26.7	73.3
2022
Steven May	151	31.8	5.3	62.9
Michael Hibberd	23	39.1	13.0	47.8
Christian Salem	17	35.3	11.8	52.9
Jake Bowey	10	20.0	30.0	50.0
2023
Steven May	124	34.7	12.1	53.2
Jake Bowey	44	34.1	4.5	61.4
Trent Rivers	20	20.0	15.0	65.0
Christian Salem	16	25.0	0.0	75.0
Adam Tomlinson	13	38.5	7.7	53.8
2024
Steven May	99	57.6	14.1	28.3
Judd McVee	54	51.9	16.7	31.5
Jake Bowey	29	51.7	6.9	41.4
Christian Salem	15	20.0	20.0	60.0
Tom McDonald	13	38.5	23.1	38.5
Trent Rivers	12	8.3	41.7	50.0
Adam Tomlinson	11	36.4	9.1	54.5
2025
Steven May	78	57.7	9.0	33.3
Jake Bowey	71	50.7	9.9	39.4
Christian Salem	51	60.8	11.8	27.5
Trent Rivers	19	31.6	15.8	52.6

Wow! It looks like a strong correlation between distance of kick outs and our drop-off in the last few years!

1 hour ago, Go Ds said:

Wow! It looks like a strong correlation between distance of kick outs and our drop-off in the last few years!

that was pretty much my thought too

i don't think correlation necessarily equates to causation, but... it can't be WHOLLY independent of each other, can it?

19 minutes ago, whatwhat say what said:

that was pretty much my thought too

i don't think correlation necessarily equates to causation, but... it can't be WHOLLY independent of each other, can it?

If going short from kick outs - a fairly incomplete stat as a lot of the short kicks get held up and followed by a long down the line kick anyway - was actually changing results in any way the coaches would change it back an in instant.

There's a couple of reasons why we wouldn't be as good at it anyway.

1. We lost the tall forwards to be the next long kick down the line. So often Gawn marks it now and it's almost pointless because he has to bomb it further up the line to a bad key forward.

2. Oliver's decline and Tracc's absence (and absence from the midfield) took away a lot benefit of playing bomb down the line ball.

But overall there's about 100 more reasons why we've changed with the competition also changing.

It's good news we've at least being proactive with this part of our game.

49 minutes ago, whatwhat say what said:

that was pretty much my thought too

i don't think correlation necessarily equates to causation, but... it can't be WHOLLY independent of each other, can it?

Correlation often means the two things are connected via another factor . The more glasses of water you have drunk in your life would correlate with dying but that because as you get older you've had more water and the increased chance of dying is because of aging and not the water (even though are connected to the time factor.)

I suspect there is some problem with the kick outs. Of course that doesn't mean all kicks should be be long - a player in space 40m away would often be better. Anyway Im guessing the new coach will add this to the list of possible changes.

9 hours ago, Earl Hood said:

No it hasn’t.

Yes it has, once you pass on it, you cannot go again

1 hour ago, Travy14 said:

Yes it has, once you pass on it, you cannot go again

Grok says a father son prospect can go again???

4 minutes ago, Earl Hood said:

Grok says a father son prospect can go again???

Who is Grok?

16 minutes ago, Travy14 said:

Who is Grok?

The AI tool available on X (Twitter). Similar to ChatGPT and DeepSeek

7 minutes ago, Earl Hood said:

The AI tool available on X (Twitter). Similar to ChatGPT and DeepSeek

Ah ok, I can't find anything online anywhere saying you can re-nominate. But I also can't find it anywhere saying you can't.

I think it is all a moot point anyways, if we do take him, it will be very very late or even rookie pick.

49 minutes ago, Travy14 said:

Ah ok, I can't find anything online anywhere saying you can re-nominate. But I also can't find it anywhere saying you can't.

I think it is all a moot point anyways, if we do take him, it will be very very late or even rookie pick.

No doubt the possible ambiguity is built in by the AFL to enable them to pick and choose how to adjudicate depending on their agenda.

11 hours ago, Go Ds said:

Wow! It looks like a strong correlation between distance of kick outs and our drop-off in the last few years!

This is a good example of the point I was making in another thread about the usefulness of stats on terms of helping understand the game is dependent on the quality of the analysis and the importance of using mutiple data points not a single stat.

You are right to note that there is a strong correlation between distance of kick outs and our drop-off in the last few years.

I saw that in a later post you discuss the distinction between correlation and causation, which is an important distinction as too often the media and fans conflate the two.

So for example, in this instance some might conclude the cause of our drop off in form has been kicking long to Maxy less often.

When in reality that stat is an indicator, a symptom, of the change to our method from a territory team to a transition team.

There are any number of stats that evidence that change, and that could be analysed in conjunction, for example with the change to our kick outs data, to drill down on the reasons for our poor win loss ratio in the last two seasons.

Two such, interrelated, stats are the big numbers we are giving up on turnover and our points against.

Taken together with the changes to our kick outs the stats are indicators of the change to our method.

And they also point to the opportunities for improvement - turn the ball over less (eg by increasing the number of above average kicks, the method becoming instinctive, get fitter etc etc) and when we do turn it over defend turnover more effectively (eg bringing in key defenders with good acceleration, the sytem becoming instinctive, stable back 7 etc etc).

Another way stats can be useful are to help evidence anecdotal observations, and understand what factors might be involved.

For example, I've said heaps this season that Maxy's contested marking has gone to another level. I'm not actually sure if that is reflected in the data (ie Maxy's CM numbers have increased) but anecdotally that's my vibe.

I've wondered if a factor has been the anecdotal evidence that we are kicking long to Maxy less often, including from kick outs.

My theory is where previously Maxy was often competing for a mark in huge packs, which obviously decreases the chances of marking, when we kick to hom he is more often one on one now or when the oppo kicks to him.he is often pushing back in defence and competing in packs that aren't set and/or don't have many players involved.

The kick out stats wheelo posted support my hypothesis (and yes, there is a risk of finding data that supports a hypothesis and/or reinforces a confirmation bias).