13 hours ago, Sir Why You Little said:

There are certain Topics on this Forum that are not allowed to be discussed, as you well know 

The upcoming Court Case will discuss a lot of it, i have no doubt 

It might be avoided altogether if we get our broom out and sweep out the board room. At least those expected to feature.

Edited September 4, 2024Sep 4 by Adam The God

1 hour ago, binman said:

Indeed.

And even tracc, or at least words attributed to him, described the 'culture' issues in the past tense - eg 'previous' issues.

The issues tracc has ventilated this season are a mixture of old grievances (eg how clarry was managed in 2023 and previous years, an implication stuff wasn't reined in etc etc) and the fall out from his injury.

And the latter stuff is really tracc's problem, not indicative of a club wide issue amongst players.

I'm not debating there were issues in 2023 and in previous years - the club acknowledged as such during the 2023/24 off season.

I flagged them myself. 

And perhaps there still are stilll issues (major ones I mean, there are always minor issues  at EVERY club at any given point in time).

But the evidence simply does not support there being major issues at the club atm.

If the environment is as bad as the media, and many on here, make it out to be, it makes no sense that so many players extend their contracts this year, most in the last couple of months, particularly young guns like jvr, kolt and windsor who had no need to extend now

Can someone who thinks we are in crisis or have huge culture issues explain why jvr, kolt and Windsor would choose to extend now when all three could wait until next year or the year after?

Or why langers, one of our most professional trainers, would choose to extend his contract?

And if it was so bad, tracc could have got to a club who had the capital to get a deal done.

Ditto koz.

I just think there is a risk of conflating issues and having them blend together into a sense of unbroken chaos.

Which doesn't equate to me being naive about issues at the club - i have been consistently critical over a number of years about how we manage things, particularly from a comms perspective. 

One example - i was very critical of the club for not publicly rebuking Clarry for that stupid, immature pre training interview he did when he was just about to come back into the side late in 2023 and his immature behaviour feigning a hammy injury at that same training.

(ironically i copped it pretty hard on that thread for being too precious and making a mountain out of a mole hill - ironic because the subtext was this was a continuation of behaviour that I was aware of and felt the club should do more to rein in and manage. Suffice to say i was in no way surprised when the issues came to light at season's end).  

But at any given time something is always happening at club land - it's just a matter of whether it gets traction in the media and a story that can endure for more than a day can be spun out of it.

Take the Stengle story.

The Cats are top 4 and only a few weeks out of finals, having played a game in the arvo, Stengel (a bloke who has got well know form in this space) gets so hammered at a night club that he passed out, collapsed and had to be taken to taken to ER in an ambulance.

That's incredibly serious.

And only happened a few weeks ago. At a club lauded for its culture.

Apologies if it’s been discussed previously but what are the concerns expressed or implied by Trac about Oliver’s treatment in 2023? 

2 hours ago, waynewussell said:

So, we get a lot of sweeping statements about dropping standards, poor culture yada yada. We seem to have more difficulty naming names. As one who attends training as often as possible, I haven't noticed a drop in standards at training.

I don’t have to name names - our best player did an actual ‘ruction’ in trying to leave and implicated the ‘names’ as having dropped standards and professionalism. 

This is such a silly argument - we are going to have an external review, possibly a new President, probably two new line coaches, and whatever recommendations come from this review that some of you have convinced yourselves will find little that the playing group can do better in both their professional preparation and behaviour… 

Ahh, might want to look behind who before you backtrack too quickly.

22 minutes ago, Sydee said:

Apologies if it’s been discussed previously but what are the concerns expressed or implied by Trac about Oliver’s treatment in 2023? 

That the club didn't do enough to put in boundaries and/or enforce them.

Not an unreasonable perspective in my opinion.

Edited September 4, 2024Sep 4 by binman

5 minutes ago, rpfc said:

I don’t have to name names - our best player did an actual ‘ruction’ in trying to leave and implicated the ‘names’ as having dropped standards and professionalism. 

This is such a silly argument - we are going to have an external review, possibly a new President, probably two new line coaches, and whatever recommendations come from this review that some of you have convinced yourselves will find little that the playing group can do better in both their professional preparation and behaviour… 

Ahh, might want to look behind who before you backtrack too quickly.

Thank you for that gobbledegook! I simply asked that contributors consider who on the playing list they feel has lowered their standards. I deliberately left out Clayton and Christian. Obviously everyone here has difficulty naming players who have dropped their standards. Unfortunately, that is the aspersion that has been cast widely in this debate. I don’t agree, and I think you will find that the players I have named, don’t agree (what an obnoxious opinion it must seem to them!)

Here’s one for those who are hoping to gain politically from jumping on the bandwagon of ‘Club in Crisis’. 1964 to 2021… you count the years, false dawns, messiahs and heartaches! We won a magnificent Premiership three years ago and yet, it has only taken three years for the borers to demand we obliterate anyone associated with bringing that Cup to us! I say the follow up was snuffed out on the field of play! I say the players own the so called failure. They know that. Let them fix it. That’s what good footballers do and we are blessed with good footballers, I believe in the young men who wear the red and blue. I keep our most successful coach in 60 years. I keep those around him who he wants and needs. I respect our current Board, CEO and Pres… I don’t accept ‘poor standards’ or ‘bad culture’ arguments, particularly from those with a political agenda or those in the media who live and die for clicks!

3 hours ago, waynewussell said:

I'm looking up at the MFC Premiers poster om my study wall and I note that these following players remain on our list from that day.

Bowey, Fritsch, Gawn, Langdon, Lever, May, McDonald, Oliver, Petracca, Petty, Pickett, Rivers, Salem, Spargo, Sparrow, & Viney.

Ok, name the blokes (other than our four-time B&F winner) listed who have dropped their standards since winning a flag!

With respect:

Bowey - lost confidence somewhere and started floating his kicks, making his kicking easier to defend for opposition (I do think he will recover) I felt that after he got a few knocks he was a little like Hunt post that major concussion he had.

Fritsch - much the same but he is much better defended by opposition - he needs help from the forward coach to make some space, he has looked good when used as a decoy.

Gawn = Goat

Langdon = 24 was better that 22+23

Lever = nothing has dropped

May = absolutely stoic the way he has worked through injuries.

McDonald = better season than the last 3 incl premiership year. We would have been massacred without him down back this year.

Trac was top 4 in coaches votes when injured

Petty = standards have not dropped but suffered under/returning from injury - confident about 25

Pickett =great improvement in discipline

Rivers = continued growth

Salem = thought he was getting better but off the boil again - really a shadow of 21 self. needs a big pre season, we are  adifferent side when he is playing well.

Spargo = lost year

Sparrow = happy for someone to argue why I got this wrong but wasn't happy with his season at all, ball watching, minimal contested possessions despite being built like a truck, should watch Butters highlights, if he chooses to carry that much weight he should use it as a weapon.

Viney = just friggin awesome, you can see the games he doesn't dominate are only because he's smashed up, elite still, couldn't be more proud.

4 minutes ago, DEE fence said:

With respect:

Bowey - lost confidence somewhere and started floating his kicks, making his kicking easier to defend for opposition (I do think he will recover) I felt that after he got a few knocks he was a little like Hunt post that major concussion he had.

Fritsch - much the same but he is much better defended by opposition - he needs help from the forward coach to make some space, he has looked good when used as a decoy.

Gawn = Goat

Langdon = 24 was better that 22+23

Lever = nothing has dropped

May = absolutely stoic the way he has worked through injuries.

McDonald = better season than the last 3 incl premiership year. We would have been massacred without him down back this year.

Trac was top 4 in coaches votes when injured

Petty = standards have not dropped but suffered under/returning from injury - confident about 25

Pickett =great improvement in discipline

Rivers = continued growth

Salem = thought he was getting better but off the boil again - really a shadow of 21 self. needs a big pre season, we are  adifferent side when he is playing well.

Spargo = lost year

Sparrow = happy for someone to argue why I got this wrong but wasn't happy with his season at all, ball watching, minimal contested possessions despite being built like a truck, should watch Butters highlights, if he chooses to carry that much weight he should use it as a weapon.

Viney = just friggin awesome, you can see the games he doesn't dominate are only because he's smashed up, elite still, couldn't be more proud.

Excellent appraisal... valued contribution!

 

14 minutes ago, waynewussell said:

Here’s one for those who are hoping to gain politically from jumping on the bandwagon of ‘Club in Crisis’. 1964 to 2021… you count the years, false dawns, messiahs and heartaches! We won a magnificent Premiership three years ago and yet, it has only taken three years for the borers to demand we obliterate anyone associated with bringing that Cup to us! I say the follow up was snuffed out on the field of play! I say the players own the so called failure. They know that. Let them fix it. That’s what good footballers do and we are blessed with good footballers, I believe in the young men who wear the red and blue. I keep our most successful coach in 60 years. I keep those around him who he wants and needs. I respect our current Board, CEO and Pres… I don’t accept ‘poor standards’ or ‘bad culture’ arguments, particularly from those with a political agenda or those in the media who live and die for clicks!

Just for clarification, by political agenda do you mean the party involved in the upcoming court case? Or someone else/others?

3 hours ago, Neil Crompton said:

You might want to hold your powder dry about “scallywags” until certain investigations are completed. 

The entire AFL playing list would run at 80% Scallywag, AFL Media more like 95%. When checking ANZAC spirit, a source of national pride, the characteristics are a perfect synonym for scallywag. Jon Ralph on the other hand comes across as an insidious Colonel Blimp. 

5 minutes ago, BoBo said:

Just for clarification, by political agenda do you mean the party involved in the upcoming court case? Or someone else/others?

I mean those on here who are in some way aligned with a push to oust the current Board/CEO/Pres

Edited September 4, 2024Sep 4 by waynewussell

1 minute ago, waynewussell said:

I mean those on here who are in some way aligned with a push to oust the current Board/CEO/Pres

Ahh ok gotcha. Thanks for clarifying 

19 minutes ago, DEE fence said:

Petty = standards have not dropped

Bar was pretty low then... 😔

5 minutes ago, waynewussell said:

I mean those on here who are in some way aligned with a push to oust the current Board/CEO/Pres

My limited understanding is that the current board want Smith and that Roffey may be ready to step down for him to become President. This is not certified fact just something I gleened from this site. Personally I've never liked Pert but that's a vibe thing and that's how I roll.

11 hours ago, rpfc said:

There is fault on all sides and the media only flavours it.

The mental gymnastics on here to absolve the club or to pin it on the media or his advisors is ridiculous .

Some of you look like sheep walking on its hind legs.

Yep, I don't think anyone comes out of this looking good. Everyone's reputations took a hammering.

2 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Yep, I don't think anyone comes out of this looking good. Everyone's reputations took a hammering.

Time will tell! Is there any individual or group that doesn't have skeletons in the closet? Changes in leadership are an ongoing reality for football clubs. I object to disrespectful, even poisonous barbs directed at those who have devoted their time and energy (often without monetary gain) to assist with the day to day demands of running an AFL club.

3 hours ago, binman said:

Indeed.

And even tracc, or at least words attributed to him, described the 'culture' issues in the past tense - eg 'previous' issues.

The issues tracc has ventilated this season are a mixture of old grievances (eg how clarry was managed in 2023 and previous years, an implication stuff wasn't reined in etc etc) and the fall out from his injury.

And the latter stuff is really tracc's problem, not indicative of a club wide issue amongst players.

I'm not debating there were issues in 2023 and in previous years - the club acknowledged as such during the 2023/24 off season.

I flagged them myself. 

And perhaps there still are stilll issues (major ones I mean, there are always minor issues  at EVERY club at any given point in time).

But the evidence simply does not support there being major issues at the club atm.

If the environment is as bad as the media, and many on here, make it out to be, it makes no sense that so many players extend their contracts this year, most in the last couple of months, particularly young guns like jvr, kolt and windsor who had no need to extend now

Can someone who thinks we are in crisis or have huge culture issues explain why jvr, kolt and Windsor would choose to extend now when all three could wait until next year or the year after?

Or why langers, one of our most professional trainers, would choose to extend his contract?

And if it was so bad, tracc could have got to a club who had the capital to get a deal done.

Ditto koz.

I just think there is a risk of conflating issues and having them blend together into a sense of unbroken chaos.

Which doesn't equate to me being naive about issues at the club - i have been consistently critical over a number of years about how we manage things, particularly from a comms perspective. 

One example - i was very critical of the club for not publicly rebuking Clarry for that stupid, immature pre training interview he did when he was just about to come back into the side late in 2023 and his immature behaviour feigning a hammy injury at that same training.

(ironically i copped it pretty hard on that thread for being too precious and making a mountain out of a mole hill - ironic because the subtext was this was a continuation of behaviour that I was aware of and felt the club should do more to rein in and manage. Suffice to say i was in no way surprised when the issues came to light at season's end).  

But at any given time something is always happening at club land - it's just a matter of whether it gets traction in the media and a story that can endure for more than a day can be spun out of it.

Take the Stengle story.

The Cats are top 4 and only a few weeks out of finals, having played a game in the arvo, Stengel (a bloke who has got well know form in this space) gets so hammered at a night club that he passed out, collapsed and had to be taken to taken to ER in an ambulance.

That's incredibly serious.

And only happened a few weeks ago. At a club lauded for its culture.

People keep referring to Stengle, but that was a one off incident at a club that has had very few of them over the last decade. Things were a bit looser under Bomber but Scott has tightened things up since taking the reigns.

Compare that to the incidents at Melbourne over the last few years. Compare it to Oliver's ongoing issues last offseason.

I have no doubt there are scallywags at all clubs, it's the nature of the beast, but it's how those clubs deal with it which is what speaks to their culture. I have no doubt Collingwood's issues run deep as well, maybe less so since McRae took charge but I wouldn't know for sure. Under Malthouse things certainly ran amok though.

At the end of the day I don't really care what is happening at other clubs though. If they have a string of incidents the media spotlight will turn on them. It is rightfully on us at the moment though and we will continue to cop it until 1) these incidents stop happening, 2) our performance lifts, 3) we stop spruiking to all and sundry what a great culture we have (live it, don't talk it), 4) we stop having issues with leaks to the media and 5) we stop having public spats with our star player (via said media leaks)

This is not some conspiracy, we have brought it on ourselves. We need to stop sooking about how unfair it is and actually fix it. We won't have any success until that happens.

1 hour ago, waynewussell said:

Here’s one for those who are hoping to gain politically from jumping on the bandwagon of ‘Club in Crisis’. 1964 to 2021… you count the years, false dawns, messiahs and heartaches! We won a magnificent Premiership three years ago and yet, it has only taken three years for the borers to demand we obliterate anyone associated with bringing that Cup to us! I say the follow up was snuffed out on the field of play! I say the players own the so called failure. They know that. Let them fix it. That’s what good footballers do and we are blessed with good footballers, I believe in the young men who wear the red and blue. I keep our most successful coach in 60 years. I keep those around him who he wants and needs. I respect our current Board, CEO and Pres… I don’t accept ‘poor standards’ or ‘bad culture’ arguments, particularly from those with a political agenda or those in the media who live and die for clicks!

With respect, you or I wouldn't know whether the off field standards have slipped. The players and coaches would know, are they doing the little bit extra they might have done a couple of years ago? Are they preparing themselves as well as they possibly can for each game/season? Are they holding each other accountable? Is the culture one of camaraderie and working to a common goal or have selfish habits crept in? Our best player and only Norm Smith medallist believes standards have slipped, our skipper at least partially agrees with him. I'm willing to accept their opinion over mine or yours.

I think on field standards have definitely slipped. We don't have the same tenacity we did in 2021, we're not working hard to drop back and support our teammates, we're not working hard to pressure the opposition, plug defensive holes, run forward to make options. On Kings Birthday we missed two or three tackles in the opening minute on the wing which led to a Collingwood goal - that to me is a slip in standards, players not playing with a focused mindset and ruthless energy.

Also with respect you say "anyone associated with bringing that Cup to us!" yet I would say our current CEO and President came in on the back of the hard work done by the previous regime (particularly Peter Jackson). I'm not discounting the work of Roffey and Pert but to say they brought the Cup to us is I think disingenuous when the foundation was laid before they took the reigns.

Edited September 4, 2024Sep 4 by Dr. Gonzo

1 hour ago, Roost it far said:

My limited understanding is that the current board want Smith and that Roffey may be ready to step down for him to become President. This is not certified fact just something I gleened from this site. Personally I've never liked Pert but that's a vibe thing and that's how I roll.

Yes but the trick is Smith is supposed to be overseas for most of the year.

i think we will see him as a board member then assuming Presidency end of 2025.

 

11 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

With respect, you or I wouldn't know whether the off field standards have slipped. The players and coaches would know, are they doing the little bit extra they might have done a couple of years ago? Are they preparing themselves as well as they possibly can for each game/season? Are they holding each other accountable? Is the culture one of camaraderie and working to a common goal or have selfish habits crept in? Our best player and only Norm Smith medallist believes standards have slipped, our skipper at least partially agrees with him. I'm willing to accept their opinion over mine or yours.

I think on field standards have definitely slipped. We don't have the same tenacity we did in 2021, we're not working hard to drop back and support our teammates, we're not working hard to pressure the opposition, plug defensive holes, run forward to make options. On Kings Birthday we missed two or three tackles in the opening minute on the wing which led to a Collingwood goal - that to me is a slip in standards, players not playing with a focused mindset and ruthless energy.

Also with respect you say "anyone associated with bringing that Cup to us!" yet I would say our current CEO and President came in on the back of the hard work done by the previous regime (particularly Peter Jackson). I'm not discounting the work of Roffey and Pert but to say they brought the Cup to us is I think disingenuous when the foundation was laid before they took the reigns.

I respect your analysis on this... but there are holes. Paragraph 1) Our skipper agrees with some of Petracca's concerns, but there is no evidence that he thinks standards have dropped in the player group.

Paragraph 2) A reasonable appraisal of on field problems.

paragraph 3) Pert was here three years leading up to our premiership, hardly coming in on the back of the previous regime. Every premiership Cup is built on the back of decisions made before it was attained. Was Hocking's input at Geelong, winning the 2022 Premiership, diminished because he followed Cook?

Are you saying that Pert and Roffey contributed naught to our success in 2021? I didn't think so!

 

1 hour ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

People keep referring to Stengle, but that was a one off incident at a club that has had very few of them over the last decade. Things were a bit looser under Bomber but Scott has tightened things up since taking the reigns.

Compare that to the incidents at Melbourne over the last few years. Compare it to Oliver's ongoing issues last offseason.

I have no doubt there are scallywags at all clubs, it's the nature of the beast, but it's how those clubs deal with it which is what speaks to their culture. I have no doubt Collingwood's issues run deep as well, maybe less so since McRae took charge but I wouldn't know for sure. Under Malthouse things certainly ran amok though.

At the end of the day I don't really care what is happening at other clubs though. If they have a string of incidents the media spotlight will turn on them. It is rightfully on us at the moment though and we will continue to cop it until 1) these incidents stop happening, 2) our performance lifts, 3) we stop spruiking to all and sundry what a great culture we have (live it, don't talk it), 4) we stop having issues with leaks to the media and 5) we stop having public spats with our star player (via said media leaks)

This is not some conspiracy, we have brought it on ourselves. We need to stop sooking about how unfair it is and actually fix it. We won't have any success until that happens.

A couple of questions:

How do you know Stengle's incident is a one off?

Well run clubs keep things in house. The cats are a well run club.

What are the incidents at the dees over the last few years you are referring to?

Not rumours, not innuendo, but incidents comparable to Stengles that have been verified.

There is the js stuff.

Clarry going off the rails in the 2023 off season.

The entrecote dust up.

Am i missing any?

Edited September 4, 2024Sep 4 by binman

I think both of you, Dr G and Wayne,

have hit the issues on the head and all in all i don't think there is a lot of difference between the two of you..

All full of great and fair comments. I would just add without the Media input surely this could have surfaced and been resolved, a lot more inhouse, but don't ask me how other than a lot less confusion and purported entitlement by them.

5 minutes ago, Graeme Yeats' Mullet said:

Bar was pretty low then... 😔

To me standards = effort, and I felt he was impeded by injury, he had a terrible year but I don't see anything wrong with his attitude and I feel like with a fair run he will surprise many. 

4 hours ago, Adam The God said:

It might be avoided altogether if we get our broad out and sweep out the board room. At least those expected to feature.

Adam? This is not your language. 

Edit: guessing it's an error open to misinterpretation. 

Edited September 4, 2024Sep 4 by Skuit

Lol though that we're discussing potential 'scally-wags' at the club. Long live the MFC.