The Premiership Window Closing?

[Bring-Back-Powell 14,846]

4 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Brilliant post.

Agreed.

A no nonsense, excuse free, reality check of a post.

Edited January 14 by Bring-Back-Powell

[Demonsterative 3,020]

5 hours ago, layzie said:

I'm tired of the excuses. Collingwood had a nightmare of a year with injuries and while their situation did come good at the right time they mostly got through it. Their most important player was missing for their final against us, it was all laid out perfectly and people still want to winge about our circumstances. If the team actually thought like this then it shows mental fragility which I've said all along can be changed but needs to be checked. 

I know people are getting tired of hearing this but when you lose 4 finals at home then I see no problem asking these questions, you don't continue to sit there and make excuses. You do that after 1 or maybe 2 tops. Do I think we got unlucky? Yes of course, especially with the Petty injury. But there are plenty that will point out that our gameplan stacked up and that we only lost by single margins and if we were more accurate blah blah. What's the excuse for that?

I'm beyond caring about hurting feelings or putting noses out of joints with this view. If you don't like it, please yourselves. When clubs like Port and Brisbane have exited finals like this in the past the overwhelming view here is that they choked. Use the same brush.

But the question is about the window and if it is closing, no it is not. Ib my view we could take a little step back this year but in the era of free agency and smart drafting we can very much put ourselves back up near 12:00 by acquiring new pieces. Our core is still strong. 

 

Well said Layzie, and I agree in many parts. We lost our best player in Clarry and our midfield functioned just fine without him. Our midfield is strong and can function without such a big loss, just like the filth. 
 

Our forward line was always our weakest line on the ground. We lost BBB and TMac. Some may say not our best players but they were our best option historically up forward. 
 

We lost and regained our best fwd in Fritta. Easily the best mid fwd in the game. He came back at much less than 100% and performed admirably. He is arguably the most under rated man in the AFL, and possibly around here too.

JVR had an outstanding year for a man playing his first year in the big league. We lost him too. 
 

Petty is our best swing man and could become a top 10% player in the game (maybe higher). He was lost. 
 

The club didn’t just lose a player, or two players. They lost 5 best players in an area of the game we need 6 players to play. We were decimated.  More than just unlucky. 

[beelzebub 23,379]

8 hours ago, loges said:

Not really much different from last year, it's very even, every side will struggle if they're not switched on.

I think it is... the opening half dozen games will define our season.  Its not a lay down misere.... its more like a bogey 6.

There is Soooo much talent on  tap with the list...it ought to be all-comer- conquering...  it ought to be. 

So why do we dither.....  

Goodwin is a Holistic coach. ... am.sure he has his vision of how he'd like to play football....all well and good but invariably theres 17 other teams with differing views. He hasn't seemed to click that either he hasn't the skills to play HIS game or HE hasnt the game to beat other teams.

He's also not a game day tactician...which tbh i find odd as he has had some interesting ideas ( YES ...im saying he has some clue....it just doesn't carry through )

Ooze did Goodies game day bidding.... ( im concerned that this cluey bloke now has no legirons or handcuffs )..  who now ?? 

I really hope we click.....could be anything...

If we clunk..... we're out of the eight.  Some will laugh.....hope you do..

We play dumb footy....by DESIGN ....thats always worried me...

We're good at talking...oh yeah...oh yeah...  we know what's wrong.... we nail podcasts and blogs...yeah....yeah..... we're wickedly on trend.....    coz that's how you win a flag ?

Not a ball bounced or kicked in anger. The year can be anything.... haven't lost a game yet.

May we continue that trend...

......go Dees

Not confident  Jan......

 

 

Edited January 14 by beelzebub

[Dr. Gonzo 24,225]

6 hours ago, Macca said:

On the surface of it, if you were a neutral observer, you'd be thinking that we are trying to make things deliberately hard for our forwards

Of course, that's not true but that's what it might look like. 

There was a similar argument when Neeld coached us.  Our default move was to hug the boundary but with unskilled players, that was a recipe for disaster

And make no mistake, the Pies are leading the way with regards to levels of efficiency with F50 entries.  McRae himself was a very efficient footballer and his team reflects his style

Goodwin on the other hand was an A grade nuts & bolts player.  Nothing wrong with that either as fearless football results (remember that mantra?)

But the FD needs to adapt and offsetting crowded forward lines requires speedy entries througn the corridor.   Precision kicks as well

That's not always possible because of the pressure around the midfield but our default moves forward requires a way more scientific approach.  It's not like we don't have the personnel to carry out such an approach

I agree to an extent but we really are our own worst enemy at times. It's not always down to precision kicking, look at how Collingwood delivers the ball to Cox, they lob it up in front of him so he can run onto the ball and crash whoever is in front. We do this on occasion but generally our kicks sit on top of the forwards head making them sit under the footy and making it easy for the defenders to scrag and spoil by jumping over the top.

We can fix some things up with our forward entries without getting a Nick Daicos who can laser kicks onto the chest.

Edited January 14 by Dr. Gonzo

[Dr. Gonzo 24,225]

I would also add that I don't think forward entries is the sole problem - at the end of the day we created enough opportunities, particularly in that QF, to win the game despite the quality of forward entries. It was our accuracy in front of goal that lost the game and perhaps a flag. Was it just a bad night? Or did we get spooked by the 92k boisterously pro-Collingwood crowd?

[Macca 16,972]

4 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I agree to an extent but we really are our own worst enemy at times. It's not always down to precision kicking, look at how Collingwood delivers the ball to Cox, they lob it up in front of him so he can run onto the ball and crash whoever is in front. We do this on occasion but generally our kicks sit on top of the forwards head making them sit under the footy and making it easy for the defenders to scrag and spoil by jumping over the top.

We can fix some things up with our forward entries without getting a Nick Daicos who can laser kicks onto the chest.

Our disposal skills needs a fair bit of work coupled with the speed that we move the ball

And way more corridor football is needed.  We've got an excellent list of players with a stellar defence so why aren't we taking more risks

[beelzebub 23,379]

3 minutes ago, Macca said:

Our disposal skills needs a fair bit of work coupled with the speed that we move the ball

And way more corridor football is needed.  We've got an excellent list of players with a stellar defence so why aren't we taking more risks

Skills

And

Gameplan..

We just need tweaking eh 😉

[Dr. Gonzo 24,225]

4 minutes ago, Macca said:

Our disposal skills needs a fair bit of work coupled with the speed that we move the ball

And way more corridor football is needed.  We've got an excellent list of players with a stellar defence so why aren't we taking more risks

Agreed, that stuff usually comes with confidence, we did it earlier in the year notably against the Dogs and Swans but went into our shells later in the year trying to play too conservatively. With that comes hesitation and second guessing and then you just make a noose for yourself.

I hope we take the game on a bit more next year, I'd rather win 22 goals to 20 than 12 goals to 9 like our late season win vs Richmond.

Edited January 14 by Dr. Gonzo

[Macca 16,972]

9 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

Skills

And

Gameplan..

We just need tweaking eh 😉

Yes, we're in furious agreement bub but let's not forget how well we played in 2021

Our skills throughout that finals series were seriously good

But since then nearly every team has flooded our forward line at all opportunities and we haven't countered that (yet)

2 years of long bombs hasn't worked for us

I'm convinced that we just move the ball too slowly and we play the boundary line too much.  The first thing I'd do is switch the wings so that the boundary line is not a friend to Langdon & Hunter

If I recall correctly, Flower played the wing position where the boundary line was on his left.  Do you recall? 

 

[beelzebub 23,379]

6 minutes ago, Macca said:

Yes, we're in furious agreement bub but let's not forget how well we played in 2021

Our skills throughout that finals series were seriously good

But since then nearly every team has flooded our forward line at all opportunities and we haven't countered that (yet)

2 years of long bombs hasn't worked for us

I'm convinced that we just move the ball too slowly and we play the boundary line too much.  The first thing I'd do is switch the wings so that the boundary line is not a friend to Langdon & Hunter

If I recall correctly, Flower played the wing position where the boundary line was on his left.  Do you recall? 

 

 

7 minutes ago, Macca said:

 

If I recall correctly, Flower played the wing position where the boundary line was on his left.  Do you recall? 

 

Geez Macca, that's got me thinking 🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔

Turning the key on the wayback machine ... you might be right ...about left.

But he was a "modern" player and crossed the mid line to follow the ball.   He coukd kick seemingly as well either foot.

I miss Robbie....  went to Soooo many games to watch him.

[Sir Why You Little 37,046]

1 minute ago, beelzebub said:

 

Geez Macca, that's got me thinking 🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔

Turning the key on the wayback machine ... you might be right ...about left.

But he was a "modern" player and crossed the mid line to follow the ball.   He coukd kick seemingly as well either foot.

I miss Robbie....  went to Soooo many games to watch him.

Robbie played the Members Wing…

[Macca 16,972]

16 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Agreed, that stuff usually comes with confidence, we did it earlier in the year notably against the Dogs and Swans but went into our shells later in the year trying to play too conservatively. With that comes hesitation and second guessing and then you just make a noose for yourself.

I hope we take the game on a bit more next year, I'd rather win 22 goals to 20 than 12 goals to 9 like our late season win vs Richmond.

We've found common ground, Gonzo

Our issues are technical coupled with a game plan that worked when our forward line was not crowded

Even in that 10 win start to the season in 2022 you could see that the connection forward wasn't working all that well

We cruised in the 4th quarters in that stretch.  Slowing the game down, playing the boundary line, working for stoppages.  The danger signs were there

Winning the premiership meant that the other teams started working on a plan to stifle our ball movement.  Comes with the territory but I wasn't surprised

We need to get used to being a top 4 team.  When you're down the bottom, you're easy pickings and it comes down to talent.  The other teams can just do their thing and thetefore win

At the top, teams are hellbent on stifling your game plan.  Upsetting in any way possible (Maynard/Brayshaw) 

So we need to adapt

[Macca 16,972]

9 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Robbie played the Members Wing…

Yeah, but which way were we kicking as he played on both wings, not just the members wing?

[beelzebub 23,379]

12 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Robbie played the Members Wing…

You do realise its a two way game ??? 

He wasn't on THAT wing all the time SWYL..  just more memorable when he was ;)

[Macca 16,972]

13 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

 

Geez Macca, that's got me thinking 🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔

Turning the key on the wayback machine ... you might be right ...about left.

But he was a "modern" player and crossed the mid line to follow the ball.   He coukd kick seemingly as well either foot.

I miss Robbie....  went to Soooo many games to watch him.

He was an 'inboard' wingman which points to the boundary line being on his left

I need to be convinced otherwise

So picture this, bub

Flower is on the southern stand wing whilst we're kicking to the scoreboard end

Switching inboard, Flower bounces and dazzles, takes 3 bounces and kicks another scintillating goal

[Sir Why You Little 37,046]

28 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

You do realise its a two way game ??? 

He wasn't on THAT wing all the time SWYL..  just more memorable when he was ;)

I think you will find he was. Robbie very rarely ran the Southern Wing

[Macca 16,972]

30 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

I think you will find he was. Robbie very rarely ran the Southern Wing

That's folklore, Wyl

Something that has grown legs over the years to solidify the whole MCC/Robbie on the members wing story

But it's just a story as Flower also played on the Southern Stand wing.  And that's without factoring in match ups

One thing is for sure, the boundary line was not Robbie's friend, he played the corridor

[YesitwasaWin4theAges 6,703]

On 12/01/2024 at 09:51, beelzebub said:

A lot of people seem.very confident about how good we are/ or might be... how this stands us in good stead for yet another tilt.

Such a good thing those 17 other teams are just going to stand by and do nothing to inhibit us.

If we dont develop a much better game, a much better forward system and efficiencies well we are pretty much dead in the water. A little mongrel might not go astray.

Imho we got pretty lucky in 2021... a very different year in so many ways and we not only persevered we dominated ( at times )

22 and 23 became a test to see if we could learn and build upon that success. Short answer is NO. So bad at 'learnings' we repeated our failure in 23.  

Everyone else seems to have learned more about us than we have ourselves.  When it counts ...others triumph.

Premiership windows are about when you're in the box seat, when if things go your way your able by your own efforts to make paramount of opportunity. 

We are not that kind of team currently. We seem to pitch wildly from effective to calamity.

I fear some are in for a rude awakening this season.... especially those wearing a red and blue jumper...  those in the box seem in another world.

Go Dees.

I wont be disappointed this year.... not in the sense that we'll  finish beneath where i suspect.

This is all on Simon.  Show us.....show us a different Melbourne....the same one wont even finish where we have.

For that window to remain open....something different needs to occur in order to push the pane up again....otherwise it's only going to be pain in 24

Lucky those other 17 are doing nothing  😉

I rate Ooze.... btw.  Interesting to watch that lot

I fear we have a tough start...  will be lucky to finish 7/8 .

Enjoy the footy.

Bring it Simon....   

 

 

Our Recruiting was not been great in 22 and 23.

Recruited much stronger for 24.

 

[Sir Why You Little 37,046]

26 minutes ago, Macca said:

That's folklore, Wyl

Something that has grown legs over the years to solidify the whole MCC/Robbie on the members wing story

But it's just a story as Flower also played on the Southern Stand wing.  And that's without factoring in match ups

One thing is for sure, the boundary line was not Robbie's friend, he played the corridor

I saw most of Robbie’s games at the ‘G between ’73 and ‘87 and he definitely favoured the Members Wing regardless of which direction we were kicking. He was proficient on both sides of his body. 
yes he played the corridor often, rarely the Southern Side. 
youtube is a a reasonable reference

[Macca 16,972]

1 hour ago, Sir Why You Little said:

I saw most of Robbie’s games at the ‘G between ’73 and ‘87 and he definitely favoured the Members Wing regardless of which direction we were kicking. He was proficient on both sides of his body. 
yes he played the corridor often, rarely the Southern Side. 
youtube is a a reasonable reference

Well at least we agree that Flower played the corridor often

Which was the thrust of my original argument where I'd prefer it if the boundary line wasn't a friend for Langdon & Hunter

So absolutely knowing how much room you've got as a wingman might lead to using that area and then kicking 'down the line'

And I'm over seeing another inside 50 go boundary side and then get thumped out of bounds by the opposition.  As previously discussed, those outcomes often leads to another wasted inside forward foray

Collingwood on the other hand ..... 

So you see, I explain my position rather than just sounding off at another loss

And you can't change your game plan in a week.  We were stuck with that style and didn't have the forwards to carry out our plan (injuries to Brown, T-Mac*, Petty, Melksham, Fritsch**, Brayshaw***) 

And just blaming Goodwin is poor analysis.  He's not the midfield coach nor is he the forwards coach (last year that was the domain of Yze & Stafford) Nor is Goodwin to blame if the players miss easy shots at goal ... that's on the players

Goodwin is responsible for the game plan and style of play and he's got a bit of work to do.  But sacked?  With a 16 & 7 record in 2023, that's a fanciful suggestion

 

*T-Mac on one leg

** Fritsch not fit

***Brayshaw out effected our ability to play Petracca forward

Edited January 14 by Macca

[DubDee 25,891]

Don’t think we can expect anything from Clarry this year. I think he has a lot to work through. 

If he plays 5 games i’d be surprised 

[Macca 16,972]

14 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Kozzie wasn't able to have stints on the ball because the coaches refused to play him there. After his round 1 suspension he spent very little time in the centre other than attending bounces at the start of quarters.

Kozzie played the first half for the centre bounces against the Crows and was dynamic.  I saw enough that night to be convinced that he's good-to-go for cameo's

But I'd like him in for the bounces, not as an extractor, but for the 2nd or 3rd possession on the back of Clarrie or Viney winning the ball.  In those instances, Petracca could start as a high half forward

Kozzie bursting out of the middle after being given the ball by our extractors and then hitting a forward on the chest is entirely possible as he has great skills and excellent pace (and he's elusive) 

He's good enough to play 2 roles (forward as well) And a nightmare match-up

I'm expecting a big year from Kozzie

Edited January 14 by Macca

[Sir Why You Little 37,046]

53 minutes ago, Macca said:

Well at least we agree that Flower played the corridor often

Which was the thrust of my original argument where I'd prefer it if the boundary line wasn't a friend for Langdon & Hunter

So absolutely knowing how much room you've got as a wingman might lead to using that area and then kicking 'down the line'

And I'm over seeing another inside 50 go boundary side and then get thumped out of bounds by the opposition.  As previously discussed, those outcomes often leads to another wasted inside forward foray

Collingwood on the other hand ..... 

So you see, I explain my position rather than just sounding off at another loss

And you can't change your game plan in a week.  We were stuck with that style and didn't have the forwards to carry out our plan (injuries to Brown, T-Mac*, Petty, Melksham, Fritsch**, Brayshaw***) 

And just blaming Goodwin is poor analysis.  He's not the midfield coach nor is he the forwards coach (last year that was the domain of Yze & Stafford) Nor is Goodwin to blame if the players miss easy shots at goal ... that's on the players

Goodwin is responsible for the game plan and style of play and he's got a bit of work to do.  But sacked?  With a 16 & 7 record in 2023, that's a fanciful suggestion

 

*T-Mac on one leg

** Fritsch not fit

***Brayshaw out effected our ability to play Petracca forward

You can change your Gameplan over Summer. We didn’t do it. Correct he is not the midfield coach, and sadly he took little notice of those coaches on gameday 

Will be interesting to see if McQualter makes a difference 

[Macca 16,972]

@DubDee

I reckon he'll be back sooner than people think.  Just a gut feeling as he loves playing footy and he'll be missing being involved

It's still 2 months until the first game and fitness wise, he'll be good to go as he's keeping up his training.  Footy is his life

Fingers crossed he's back, better than ever

Edited January 14 by Macca

[58er 6,456]

7 hours ago, DubDee said:

Don’t think we can expect anything from Clarry this year. I think he has a lot to work through. 

If he plays 5 games i’d be surprised 

You made the statement and before your pen is dry he has appeared at training at Goschs with an accomplice in a high prized vehicle trotting out the equivalent of 13kms on one session.

I am pretty certain he wouldn’t be laying a base that thick for only 5 games in a crucial year for players and his well being. 

Perhaps you just got it wrong and he may miss as little of 5 games in 2024. 

Wonderful news if Clarry is in a space that he is feeling good and even positive at this stage. 
Of course there’s plenty of Yarra water under the Punt Road bridge to flow but all fans have real hope that our 4 times BandF champion is in a better life space and consequently his one major aim of AFL is starting to bloom as well. 

We can all only hope and pray 2024 will be one Clarry can enjoy and do what he feels happy doing. If that means getting kicks on the G then a whole fan base plus many thousands of other admirers will also be a lot happier.