PRESEASON TRAINING: Monday 4th December 2023

[Simon Port 167]

What are the general feelings towards Matty Jefferson this pre season? Does it seem like his fitness has improved/has he put on substantial muscle?

What do we think about his general competitiveness and second efforts? Going forward we really need him to be the partner in crime to Van Rooyen, especially if Petty does leave.

Obviously not expecting him to shoot the lights out or even be best 22 this year but, we just need to see glimpses of the player he could become in the future 

[waynewussell 4,227]

10 hours ago, Wizard of Koz said:

I can believe it. Absolutely. Because it's the first week in December and he has no pressure. I am tipping that has got something to do with it.

Spoken like one who rarely attends training and is unaware of the high-level physical competitiveness of the marking exercise that I witnessed from close range. Doesn't it strike you as remarkable that at least three independent observers have referred to the mobility and physicality displayed by BBB? It wasn't just those attributes... BBB was taking marks against all comers.

Edited December 5, 2023 by waynewussell

[waynewussell 4,227]

4 minutes ago, Simon Port said:

What are the general feelings towards Matty Jefferson this pre season? Does it seem like his fitness has improved/has he put on substantial muscle?

What do we think about his general competitiveness and second efforts? Going forward we really need him to be the partner in crime to Van Rooyen, especially if Petty does leave.

Obviously not expecting him to shoot the lights out or even be best 22 this year but, we just need to see glimpses of the player he could become in the future 

He does look stronger, with some growth in upper body. He seems to be enjoying his work, in sharp contrast to his body language in VFL final! He is taking some very good clean marks against very good opposition. He still double grabs at times, and doesn't go like a raging JVR to every contest... a bit of picking and choosing. Having said that, he is clever with his positioning and will be worthy of a game with the AFL team during 2024.

[binman 39,469]

5 hours ago, Dee Boys said:

Haha asking whether someone might go through the midfield eventually is hardly asking for the nuclear launch codes.

If you think he’s going to be more candid on a publicly available podcast listened to by thousands of people than he is to one supporter watching training with his 2 year old son, then that’s your prerogative!

I was joking, but that said i'm a tad confused.

On a publicly available podcast Taylor said the plan was for the Colt to go through the middle at some stage.

He then said the same thing in an interview with a Herald Sun reporter.

Are you suggesting Taylor was not being candid on the DL podcast or with the reporter when he said the plan was for the Colt to go through the middle at some stage?

But he was being candid with you when in response to your question whether the plan was for the Colt to go through the middle at some stage he replied “yeah, maybe”?

Apart from being a little more equivocal, how does that response contradict his public statements?

I mean to say the Colt would play as a mid 'at some stage' is basically the same as saying that 'maybe' he will play as a mid at some stage.

For what it's worth my view is that of course there's a chance he could run through the middle at times (just as Nibbla did this year) and/or become a permanent mid down the track. At different times the same thing has been suggested about Rivers and McVee (ie they could end up being mid fielders - despite, like the Colt, having limited experience in that role).

In my opinion they recruited a player with excellent aerobic capacity who has played all his junior footy as a half forward, with occasional runs on the ball (ie not a specialist mid) to play the high half forward role on the other flank to Nibbla. 

To me that's clearly the plan, at least for the next few seasons. A good one too because the high half forward role has become critical in footy - as evidenced by the fact clubs are now trading (eg Bedford to the Giants) and drafting (eg the Colt) in players to play the high half forward role.

A similar phenomena happened with the wing position - ie players being drafted or traded in specifically to play that role.

There was a lag before the footy media and fans understood how critical the winger role had become and i suspect the same thing will happen with the high half forward role.

Windsor looks like being a winger and they have been clear the Colt will play as a forward, at least in the early part of his career. Which suggests recruiting a pure mid was not high on their agenda and was not considered a key 'need' at this point in time.

Which i think in part reflects a big shift in the game.

When Roos came to the dees in 2013 (his first season as coach was 2014 but he was appointed prior to the 2013 draft) the orthodoxy across the league, in large part based on his team set up at the Swans, was teams couldn't have enough mids. Teams basically needed at least 8-10 midfield bulls who could run through the middle and as a result the forward and defensive flankers were often mids.

Under Roos we duly loaded up on mids - Gus, Tracc, Oliver, Viney, Dyson, Vandenburg, Bugg, Balic and to a lesser extent Salo (he was a defender as junior but like the Colt there was the suggestion when we drafted him he might become a mid).  

But in the ten years since Roos joined the dees the game has significantly changed and there is a much, much greater emphasis on transition, all team defence, running, speed and spread.

As a result of this change the athletic profile of players is changing.

Sure teams still need some midfield bulls, but really no more than 3-4. Characteristics such as fitness, aerobic capacity, ability to cover the ground at speed and ability to do repeat sprints are now much more important attributes than a decade ago.

Instead of needing 8-10 midfield bulls, teams now need 8-10 brilliant athletes on their list who can run between the arcs all game. Ideally these players are also excellent kicks.

That hasn't always been the case with 'role' players like Nibbla an Cotterill being brilliant athletes but not necessarily highly skilled.

I suspect the importance of such 'role' players (historically a pejorative - eg 'he's an athlete first, footballer second') has well and truly filtered down to the junior level and good athlete and good footballer are no longer mutually exclusive terms. 

In this context, drafting in the Duke and the Colt makes perfect sense. Both are apparently really good athletes who play specialised roles AND have excellent skills.

Edited December 5, 2023 by binman

[Palace Dees 2,069]

14 hours ago, binman said:

Said the same thing on the Demonland Podcast too. 

I like to think of Taylor as a horse trainer. He's not in the business of giving stuff away, particularly to fellas who sidle up looking for intel on the new colt. 

Hhmmm....not sure now whether to back him in the Rising Star or the Vic Derby. 🤔

[Demonland 66,839]

 

[binman 39,469]

1 hour ago, Simon Port said:

What are the general feelings towards Matty Jefferson this pre season? Does it seem like his fitness has improved/has he put on substantial muscle?

What do we think about his general competitiveness and second efforts? Going forward we really need him to be the partner in crime to Van Rooyen, especially if Petty does leave.

Obviously not expecting him to shoot the lights out or even be best 22 this year but, we just need to see glimpses of the player he could become in the future 

I think we have become so used to young players coming in and having an impact straight away that we forget that key position players have almost always taken several years to get near their peak and have a real impact. 

In that context JVRs first season at AFL level was phenomenal - and a tough benchmark. Cadman is much better player to benchmark Jefferson with.

Cadman, the best key forward in the 2022 draft, was picked at one by the Giants (Jefferson went at 15). Yes he got run in the seniors in his first season, but as reflected in his numbers (12 games, 6 goals, 6 contested marks and averaged 4.5 disposals and 1.6 marks per game) he was all at sea and clearly miles off. No surprise he didn't get a game in the finals. 

My view on Jefferson is that he is almost the classic old school young forward. Looks a natural forward, reads the ball in flight super well, uses his body super well in marking contests and has great hands. But is 3-4 years away from nearing his peak. He actually reminds me of a young Tom Hawkins, both in style and the fact that Hawkins took a few years to become a force as a forward.  

I suspect Jefferson is at least another season away from regular senior selection, and I won't be surprised if he doesn't  get a call up in 2024 (though i think they might give him a couple of senior games later in the season in the same way that have with, say Disco and Woey).  

Edited December 5, 2023 by binman

[Demonstone 19,980]

27 minutes ago, Palace Dees said:

Hhmmm....not sure now whether to back him in the Rising Star or the Vic Derby. 🤔

I wouldn't mind some more Melbourne Cups to go with our thirteen other ones.

[WalkingCivilWar 34,808]

1 hour ago, waynewussell said:

He does look stronger, with some growth in upper body. He seems to be enjoying his work, in sharp contrast to his body language in VFL final! He is taking some very good clean marks against very good opposition. He still double grabs at times, and doesn't go like a raging JVR to every contest... a bit of picking and choosing. Having said that, he is clever with his positioning and will be worthy of a game with the AFL team during 2024.

Agree with everything you say Wayne, I just wanted to mention Matty’s posture. I don’t know if it’s genetic or if it’s something that can be remedied. I don’t know if it affects his movement or if it just looks bad, but it’s quite pronounced and has actually worsened since I first met him less than a year ago. 

[leave it to deever 16,555]

On 04/12/2023 at 11:14, Jaded No More said:

What is the deal with Salem? Hopefully no more thyroid issues and just precaution

He is such a a key player.

When he returned from injury, I realized what a better side we were.

Sadly after a while his form dropped off. I wonder if the same issue cropped up again.

Salo in his peak powers is a game changer.

Hopefully he's just being managed at the moment. I hope he's ok.

[Dee Boys 272]

1 hour ago, binman said:

I was joking, but that said i'm a tad confused.

On a publicly available podcast Taylor said the plan was for the Colt to go through the middle at some stage.

He then said the same thing in an interview with a Herald Sun reporter.

Are you suggesting Taylor was not being candid on the DL podcast or with the reporter when he said the plan was for the Colt to go through the middle at some stage?

But he was being candid with you when in response to your question whether the plan was for the Colt to go through the middle at some stage he replied “yeah, maybe”?

Apart from being a little more equivocal, how does that response contradict his public statements?

I mean to say the Colt would play as a mid 'at some stage' is basically the same as saying that 'maybe' he will play as a mid at some stage.

For what it's worth my view is that of course there's a chance he could run through the middle at times (just as Nibbla did this year) and/or become a permanent mid down the track. At different times the same thing has been suggested about Rivers and McVee (ie they could end up being mid fielders - despite, like the Colt, having limited experience in that role).

In my opinion they recruited a player with excellent aerobic capacity who has played all his junior footy as a half forward, with occasional runs on the ball (ie not a specialist mid) to play the high half forward role on the other flank to Nibbla. 

To me that's clearly the plan, at least for the next few seasons. A good one too because the high half forward role has become critical in footy - as evidenced by the fact clubs are now trading in (eg Bedford to the Giants) and drafting (eg the Colt) players to play the high half forward role.

A similar phenomena happened with the wing position - ie players being drafted or traded in specifically to play that role.

There was a lag before the footy media and fans understood how critical the winger role had become and i suspect the same thing will happen with the high half forward role.

Windsor looks like being a winger and they have been clear the Colt will play as a forward, at least in the early part of his career. Which suggests recruiting a pure mid was not high on their agenda and was not considered a key 'need' at this point in time.

Which i think in part reflects a big shift in the game.

When Roos came to the dees in 2013 (his first season as coach was 2014 but he was appointed prior to the 2013 draft) the orthodoxy across the league, in large part based on his team set up at the Swans, was teams couldn't have enough mids. Teams basically needed at least 8-10 midfield bulls who could run through the middle and as a result the forward and defensive flankers were often mids.

Under Roos we duly loaded up on mids - Gus, Tracc, Oliver, Viney, Dyson, Vandenburg, Bugg, Balic and to a lesser extent Salo (he was a defender as junior but like the Colt there was the suggestion when we drafted him he might become a mid).  

But in the ten years since Roos joined the dees the game has significantly changed and there is a much, much greater emphasis on transition, all team defence, running, speed and spread.

As a result of this change the athletic profile of players is changing.

Sure teams still need some midfield bulls, but really no more than 3-4. Characteristics such as fitness, aerobic capacity, ability to cover the ground at speed and ability to do repeat sprints are now much more important attributes than a decade ago.

Instead of needing 8-10 midfield bulls, teams now need 8-10 brilliant athletes on their list who can run between the arcs all game. Ideally these players are also excellent kicks.

That hasn't always been the case with 'role' players like Nibbla an Cotterill being brilliant athletes but not necessarily highly skilled.

I suspect the importance of such 'role' players (historically a pejorative - eg 'he's an athlete first, footballer second') has well and truly filtered down to the junior level and good athlete and good footballer are no longer mutually exclusive terms. 

In this context, drafting in the Duke and the Colt makes perfect sense. Both are apparently really good athletes who play specialised roles AND have excellent skills.

Certainly can’t be bothered reading all that mate. I was being facetious too.

All I was doing was passing on a direct conversation I’d had with Jason Taylor, thought people may be interested, no skin off my nose if they’re not or if they disagree with what he said.

I’m merely a humble supporter, not an exalted Herald Sun journo or podcast contributor! 

And I do have a feeling Tholstrup will be a fantastic pickup for us.

Edited December 5, 2023 by Dee Boys

[Nascent 7,700]

19 hours ago, WalkingCivilWar said:

Also Casey on Wednesday. Casey all of next week, then they start their Xmas break. Back to Gosch’s when their break is over, early in the new year. 

Thanks, definitely won't be able to make that one but may make the trip on Friday. Hopefully access and parking isn't too much of an issue.

[Deebauched 1,219]

AFL players get alot of time off. How does it compare with  NFL and Premier League?  

I bet the AFL is well ahead on free time.

[binman 39,469]

4 hours ago, Dee Boys said:

Certainly can’t be bothered reading all that mate. I was being facetious too.

All I was doing was passing on a direct conversation I’d had with Jason Taylor, thought people may be interested, no skin off my nose if they’re not or if they disagree with what he said.

I’m merely a humble supporter, not an exalted Herald Sun journo or podcast contributor! 

And I do have a feeling Tholstrup will be a fantastic pickup for us.

All good, wasn't trying to have a shot at you. Apologies if that is how it came across. People are def interested in any conversations posters might have with people from the club. 

I think every new recruit will be a fantastic pickup for us, but the Colt certainly fills a need and looks like he has an X factor and plenty of upside - two things Taylor clearly places a high priority on.  

[Dee Boys 272]

20 minutes ago, binman said:

All good, wasn't trying to have a shot at you. Apologies if that is how it came across. People are def interested in any conversations posters might have with people from the club. 

I think every new recruit will be a fantastic pickup for us, but the Colt certainly fills a need and looks like he has an X factor and plenty of upside - two things Taylor clearly places a high priority on.  

No probs at all mate 👍

And I think we’re kind of on the same wavelength anyway. The fact he didn’t seem overly enthusiastic on the idea doesn’t mean it’ll never happen, just probably not in the short-medium term.

I do worry about our young midfield depth but there’s no doubt that Windsor and Tholstrup are natural footballers. Really solid athletes too but natural footballers who you’d think will be able to play multiple positions.

[Earl Hood 5,870]

21 hours ago, WalkingCivilWar said:

Also Casey on Wednesday. Casey all of next week, then they start their Xmas break. Back to Gosch’s when their break is over, early in the new year. 

WCW Do you know the training time at Casey for Wednesday and if you are allowed into the ground? Thinking I might take my car for a drive up that way tomorrow. Last few times I drove interstate from Fitzroy to Cranbourne  during Covid they had the ground locked and had to look in from outside😕! 

[binman 39,469]

1 hour ago, Dee Boys said:

No probs at all mate 👍

And I think we’re kind of on the same wavelength anyway. The fact he didn’t seem overly enthusiastic on the idea doesn’t mean it’ll never happen, just probably not in the short-medium term.

I do worry about our young midfield depth but there’s no doubt that Windsor and Tholstrup are natural footballers. Really solid athletes too but natural footballers who you’d think will be able to play multiple positions.

Agree we are on the same wavelength in terms of Taylor being ambivalent about the Colt playing as a mid. I had the same vibe from Taylor when I listened to the podcast interview (ie might go through the middle at some point = probably ain't happening any time soon).

I'm not so worried about our midfield depth, but only because tracc, oliver, viney and Gus have another 5 plus years of elite footy left.

And we have Sparrow, who whilst not an a grader is a solid player and still pretty young.

But with harmes, jj and Dunstan all leaving the question of depth through the middle is an interesting one - particularly given we didnt pick up a pure mid in rhe draft.

Laurie played as a mid at Casey last season (which was why I so perplexed they didn't use him in the middle when he replaced Gus in the QF). So he's def an option.

The cupboard is pretty bare after that.

Edited December 5, 2023 by binman

[Wizard of Koz 981]

15 hours ago, loges said:

So we shouldn't be trying to judge anyone then ?

Some of you folk are way too precious,

[Wizard of Koz 981]

10 hours ago, waynewussell said:

Spoken like one who rarely attends training and is unaware of the high-level physical competitiveness of the marking exercise that I witnessed from close range. Doesn't it strike you as remarkable that at least three independent observers have referred to the mobility and physicality displayed by BBB? It wasn't just those attributes... BBB was taking marks against all comers.

Yes it does strike me as remarkable 

[WalkingCivilWar 34,808]

2 hours ago, Earl Hood said:

WCW Do you know the training time at Casey for Wednesday and if you are allowed into the ground? Thinking I might take my car for a drive up that way tomorrow. Last few times I drove interstate from Fitzroy to Cranbourne  during Covid they had the ground locked and had to look in from outside😕! 

Training starts at 9.30am. Unfortunately, all sessions at Casey are closed sessions. Zero interaction with players and staff, and you can only watch from afar. It’s a situation where if you happen to be in the area or you live close by, it might be worth a look, albeit not a close look.

[Wizard of Koz 981]

1 hour ago, binman said:

Agree we are on the same wavelength in terms of Taylor being ambivalent about the Colt playing as a mid. I had the same vibe from Taylor when I listened to the podcast interview (ie might go through the middle at some point = probably ain't happening any time soon).

I'm not so worried about our midfield depth, but only because tracc, oliver, viney and Gus have another 5 plus years of elite footy left.

And we have Sparrow, who whilst not an a grader is a solid player and still pretty young.

But with harmes, jj and Dunstan all leaving the question of depth through the middle is an interesting one - particularly given we didnt pick up a pure mid in rhe draft.

Laurie played as a mid at Casey last season (which was why I so perplexed they didn't use him in the middle when he replaced Gus in the QF). So he's def an option.

The cupboard is pretty bare after that.

McVee and Rivers will both be genuine midfielders in next couple of years

[binman 39,469]

2 hours ago, Wizard of Koz said:

McVee and Rivers will both be genuine midfielders in next couple of years

Unlikely.

They might get some midfield minutes here and there, but with Gus, tracc, oliver  viney and sparrow all midfield locks for another five years that's it.

Besides, Rivers has become critical to our transition game, so can't see him moving from defence.

Mcvee can play mutiple roles - defender, winger, outside mid.

[Wrecker46 2,740]

16 hours ago, Palace Dees said:

Hhmmm....not sure now whether to back him in the Rising Star or the Vic Derby. 🤔

Colts have a good strike rate in The Golden Slipper

[Wells 11 4,986]

16 hours ago, WalkingCivilWar said:

Agree with everything you say Wayne, I just wanted to mention Matty’s posture. I don’t know if it’s genetic or if it’s something that can be remedied. I don’t know if it affects his movement or if it just looks bad, but it’s quite pronounced and has actually worsened since I first met him less than a year ago. 

it’s quite glaring isn’t it. I can’t help but think it’s going to invite shoulder and or neck injuries at AFL level …and his time there may be limited. I’m guessing at that and hope i’m wrong but  It’s hard to get excited about him for this reason. 

[Palace Dees 2,069]

3 hours ago, Wrecker46 said:

Colts have a good strike rate in The Golden Slipper

Windsor looks like the sprinter of the two. Given Tholstrup is from WA, I'm hoping he's a 'stayer'. 😉