53 minutes ago, Doug Reemer said:

Here’s an interesting comparison. Take into account Watts played in a far worse side.

Jack Watts (50 games) 2009-2012.

Goals- 37.18 
Contested Marks- 49
Avg Disp- 13 
Tackles- 89

 

Sam Weideman (49 Games) 2016-2021.

Goals- 49.29 
Contested Marks- 69 
Avg Disp- 9 
Tackles- 67

Not 100% sure what point you're trying to make here. Is it that a key forward will have more goals and contested marks than a mid sized forward who sees more of the action and obviously then gets more disposals and tackles?

Also, our average scores over those two different periods are almost the same so I don't think saying "played in a far worse side" is entirely correct in this context.

9 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

Not 100% sure what point you're trying to make here. Is it that a key forward will have more goals and contested marks than a mid sized forward who sees more of the action and obviously then gets more disposals and tackles?

Also, our average scores over those two different periods are almost the same so I don't think saying "played in a far worse side" is entirely correct in this context.

Perhaps the point is that if Watts wasn't the messiah we'd hoped for, then Sam with similar figures is unlikely to be too.

2 minutes ago, sue said:

Perhaps the point is that if Watts wasn't the messiah we'd hoped for, then Sam with similar figures is unlikely to be too.

Has there been one person since the day he was drafted that thought "Weideman is the messiah"?

Edited June 21, 20214 yr by Lord Nev

8 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

Has there been one person since the day he was drafted that thought "Weideman is the messiah"?

I reckon there might have been quite a few after the finals against Geelong and Hawthorn in 2018

Just now, Bitter but optimistic said:

I reckon there might have been quite a few after the finals against Geelong and Hawthorn in 2018

Not to mention the panic amongst some  when rumours of other club's interest in him were first aired.   Recent games seem to have dampened that.

We might not need a messiah, but we do need someone with some presence on the field. At the moment Sam is not doing enough. 

4 minutes ago, sue said:

Not to mention the panic amongst some  when rumours of other club's interest in him were first aired.   Recent games seem to have dampened that.

We might not need a messiah, but we do need someone with some presence on the field. At the moment Sam is not doing enough. 

"Breakout game" might have been said a few times, but I'm yet to see one person ever say 'Weideman is the messiah' about a year where Gawn and Oliver were All-Australian.

Let's not rewrite history just so we can find a new way to bash Weid.

1 minute ago, Lord Nev said:

"Breakout game" might have been said a few times, but I'm yet to see one person ever say 'Weideman is the messiah' about a year where Gawn and Oliver were All-Australian.

Let's not rewrite history just so we can find a new way to bash Weid.

I'm not trying to bash him.  But I do think many of us were hoping he'd be something special.  Call that a messiah or whatever you like.

6 minutes ago, sue said:

I'm not trying to bash him.  But I do think many of us were hoping he'd be something special.  Call that a messiah or whatever you like.

I agree there were definitely expectations he would be better than he's currently showing, absolutely no doubt there.

Huge difference between hoping he'd be something special and thinking he's the messiah though.

If you go back to all the draft profiles, and even the comments by Taylor, about him around the time he was picked up you'll see a recurring theme: "project player", "long-term project", "be patient", so perhaps the expectations some had weren't accurate?

Those statements don't buy him infinite time, but at 23 he is still young for a key forward, let alone one consistently labelled in such a way. I think it's too early to call him a bust just yet, but expectations surely should have adjusted by now.

Edited June 21, 20214 yr by Lord Nev

i will happily admit - i thought based on where we took him in the draft, his pedigree, his height, broad shoulders, his seeming professionalism, his noted ability to build his body to 'senior' level over the last five years, and then his form in the vfl and in the afl at the end of 2018 that he WAS going to be an out and out gun

he's instead unfortunately possibly not just a 'good, ordinary' afl key forward but instead a player who is too good for vfl, not good enough for afl

he looks bereft of confidence currently and his trade value will have diminished significantly since returning to the afl side and routinely failing to impress

21 minutes ago, Bitter but optimistic said:

I reckon there might have been quite a few after the finals against Geelong and Hawthorn in 2018

I must admit that I was optimistic and thought "here we go!" I'm patient, to a point. But I'm now tasting a little too much bitters in my lemon and lime.

1 hour ago, daisycutter said:

but you took watts first 4 years and compared to weids first 6 years

i realise you took the first 50 games for each, but same years of development would be better as you are using averages anyway

Same years of development would make Weideman look worse.

4 minutes ago, maximum bob said:

I must admit that I was optimistic and thought "here we go!" I'm patient, to a point. But I'm now tasting a little too much bitters in my lemon and lime.

Get onto the Shiraz bob - far more effective.

59 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

Not 100% sure what point you're trying to make here. Is it that a key forward will have more goals and contested marks than a mid sized forward who sees more of the action and obviously then gets more disposals and tackles?

Also, our average scores over those two different periods are almost the same so I don't think saying "played in a far worse side" is entirely correct in this context.

I think Weid is becoming the whipping boy Jack Watts was. 

My point is Sam has had far more support and opportunity to develop than Jack did. Yet seems to have stagnated at the top level. We are now a club past the development stage. So I think you can't "get games into him" while we are now legitimately in the Premiership Window. so if someone else comes in and plays the role he couldn't so be it & if he chooses to leave because he couldn't get a game, that's not the clubs fault.

Edited June 21, 20214 yr by Doug Reemer

1 minute ago, Doug Reemer said:

I think Weid is becoming the whipping boy Jack Watts was. 

My point is Sam has had far more support and opportunity to develop than Jack did. Yet seems to have stagnated at the top level. We are now a club past the development stage. So I think you can't "get games into him" while we are now legitimately in the Premiership Window. so if someone else comes in and plays the role he couldn't so be it & if he chooses to leave because he couldn't get a game, that's not the clubs fault.

That's fair. Would definitely agree in the difference in the quality of our development programs between then and now.

I think if he's not with us next year it's by his choice too.

Personally, I think the pressure should shift to Ben Brown now. He's the big name recruit, peak age, but he hasn't grabbed his chance so far. Something has been 'off' with the forward line synergy when he's played as well IMO. He's the proven mature player who now needs to execute.

38 minutes ago, Bitter but optimistic said:

Get onto the Shiraz bob - far more effective.

Funny you mention that. Just uncapped a bottle of 2017 label Tournon, Pyrenees Grenache, Landsborough vineyard. French origin, Victorian licensed vineyard  At first sip, well let's say it needs a little breathing. And by the way which of our current players resembles this Hollywood swashbuckler? It's a bit easy but both names to win the accolades.

Edited June 21, 20214 yr by maximum bob

3 minutes ago, maximum bob said:

Funny you mention that. Just uncapped a bottle of 2017 label Tournon, Pyrenees Grenache, Landsborough vineyard. French origin, Victorian licensed vineyard  At first sip, well let's say it needs a little breathing. And by the way, which classic actor does this remind you of?

Looks a bit like you bob but not as nattily dressed!

Could also be Dougy Fairbanks who was a contemporary of Basil Rathbone - one of my Favourites.

Fairbanks it is. You missed the Junior and the look-alike. No wine for you!

11 minutes ago, maximum bob said:

Fairbanks it is. You missed the Junior and the look-alike. No wine for you!

Well obviously it's Lever, so just send the booze to Uncle Bitter at The Manor, Romsey.

13 minutes ago, maximum bob said:

Fairbanks it is. You missed the Junior and the look-alike. No wine for you!

Rivers? The look-alike, that is. 
Seems I’m barking up the wrong tree. 

Edited June 21, 20214 yr by WalkingCivilWar

8 hours ago, Lord Nev said:

This thread really is bringing out the worst in a lot of posters.

Just continual kicking of a young player rather than actually discussing footy.

 

Yeah look, I’ll ease up for one. Really don’t like the pile-ons, and found the Spargo one pretty unbearable (not to mention misguided). It’s just frustration, but it’s not like he wouldn’t be trying his guts out to get himself right. 

I remember a sunny day in ‘18, watching our last H&A match against GWS from the pocket in the Southern Stand. Sam had a set shot right in front of me from about 50m. He effortlessly slotted it with a beautiful motion, and I remember thinking that he really could be our next champion player. 

Just gotta find that guy again! 
 

 

9 minutes ago, Mel Bourne said:

Yeah look, I’ll ease up for one. Really don’t like the pile-ons, and found the Spargo one pretty unbearable (not to mention misguided). It’s just frustration, but it’s not like he wouldn’t be trying his guts out to get himself right. 

I remember a sunny day in ‘18, watching our last H&A match against GWS from the pocket in the Southern Stand. Sam had a set shot right in front of me from about 50m. He effortlessly slotted it with a beautiful motion, and I remember thinking that he really could be our next champion player. 

Just gotta find that guy again!

Could be the first really tricky test at the Dees for Choco. A lot to unpack when it comes to Weid I reckon.

By all acounts; Goody and Yze are fantastic with relating to players, Choco is a bit of a magician with the enigmas, Stafford I'm not totally sold on, but there's also TMac (he who has risen again), so seems like he has the right people around him to give him the best chance to make it work.

The Weid should play defence in the reserves for a while ( with constant covid lock downs, may never play again ). He could become another T.Mac. Change of surname not an option.

19 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

Could be the first really tricky test at the Dees for Choco. A lot to unpack when it comes to Weid I reckon.

By all acounts; Goody and Yze are fantastic with relating to players, Choco is a bit of a magician with the enigmas, Stafford I'm not totally sold on, but there's also TMac (he who has risen again), so seems like he has the right people around him to give him the best chance to make it work.

Nev, could you list a few of the things that need to be unpacked re The Weid ?

Edited June 21, 20214 yr by Bitter but optimistic
Typo

*removed before I cop a warning.....

Edited June 21, 20214 yr by faultydet

2 hours ago, Bitter but optimistic said:

Well obviously it's Lever, so just send the booze to Uncle Bitter at The Manor, Romsey.

 

2 hours ago, Bitter but optimistic said:

Looks a bit like you bob but not as nattily dressed!

Could also be Dougy Fairbanks who was a contemporary of Basil Rathbone - one of my Favourites.

You are an old movie fan BBO?  Me too, I have a collection of about 2000 old films.

Edited June 21, 20214 yr by John Crow Batty