Winger, winger, chicken dinner?!

[Deemania since 56 6,609]

On 3/9/2021 at 9:52 AM, NeveroddoreveN said:

Tomlinson is an interesting one and i am not sure why he he gets canned by so many here. He is basically playing Oscars role and doing it much better than Oscar ever did.  i recall that game during Marsh series and we had around 60 touches between Langdon/Tomlinson and we looked much more threatening as a team.  We only played Tomlinson there for 1 or 2 more games before experimenting with him back.  We seem to occasionally try different things regarding setups but very quickly revert to some other BS when it does not work out for short period.  We need to persevere and teach some players how to play the position.

Thinking logically about it i am leaning more towards Petracca playing the wing role.  He can be an option on the outside at centre bounces and has the tank to run all day. Really is a conundrum trying to come up with the solution without thinking outside the square.  We seem to have tried nearly everyone over last few years in this position!

Tomlinson back to the wing, please. 

Petty to CHBack on a swing with CHF/TMac.

 

[deanox 9,900]

On 3/9/2021 at 10:04 AM, dazzledavey36 said:

We put all our eggs in thr Isaac Smith basket and the moment we missed out, we simply had no plan B. It was well documented that Phillips was being shopped in the open market and every footy journo and media outlet said that it was the perfect fit for us. And it would have been.

The arrogance in this football continues to amaze me.

This is way OTT. The fact we didn't seem to be linked doesn't mean we didn't try, nor that we put all eggs in one basket.

[deanox 9,900]

On 3/9/2021 at 10:21 AM, John Demonic said:

Imagine thinking one of our VFL level depth was a safer gamble than paying Isaac Smith his 3rd year of a contract while he sat on the sidelines dying of old age.

Glad the club made a serious move to get him, but echo sentiments of other comments, it's a contradiction to then say we'll rely on what we already have in-house.

 

If we gave him the 3rd year we'd still have this thread but it would be about how everyone takes us for fools, we pay overs for players and we are a retirement home blah blah.

[dazzledavey36 54,302]

1 hour ago, deanox said:

This is way OTT. The fact we didn't seem to be linked doesn't mean we didn't try, nor that we put all eggs in one basket.

It was evident when Josh Mahoney was interviewed at the time that he mentioned we were only slightly interested, but was more so going to back in our current system.. that's a clear as it gets. After missing out on Smith Mahoney again ruled out going for anyone else and again reiterated that we were going to back in the likes of Bakers etc. I have seen enough of Baker to know that this is already a fail.

If we badly wanted him we would have got him. Collingwood traded him for a pick in the 60s and it's going to be proven to be a solid pick up for the Hawks.

[Roger Mellie 3,991]

41 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

It was evident when Josh Mahoney was interviewed at the time that he mentioned we were only slightly interested, but was more so going to back in our current system.. that's a clear as it gets. After missing out on Smith Mahoney again ruled out going for anyone else and again reiterated that we were going to back in the likes of Bakers etc. I have seen enough of Baker to know that this is already a fail.

If we badly wanted him we would have got him. Collingwood traded him for a pick in the 60s and it's going to be proven to be a solid pick up for the Hawks.

I heard Mahoney's interview. I didn't believe him then and nothing's changed. It sounds better to play down our interest than say he knocked us back or that we couldn't fit him under the cap unless we could dump TMac. But, believe what you want.

[WA Demon Boy 966]

Baker ain't it. 

I'd like to see Rivers on a wing. He might not have the pace/tank but put him there for a majority of the game and swap out with Hunt perhaps. 

Agree with all on here that it's amazing we didn't go after another winger or even someone temporary to fill the hole.

Baker isn't the answer.

Also our mids need to start hitting the scoreboard. So sick of watching other teams mids kick 1-2 and ours not even looking like a threat to score. 

[NeveroddoreveN 1,034]

12 hours ago, WERRIDEE said:

I think Harmes should be played on the wing as well.

Really not sure about this one.  For mine he gets lost ball watching a lot of the time.  It is why he did not work at HBF and probably won't on the wing.  He needs to constantly make decisions whether to attack or defend and has extremely low footy IQ for anything but a follow role imo.

[DeeSpencer 25,485]

13 minutes ago, NeveroddoreveN said:

Really not sure about this one.  For mine he gets lost ball watching a lot of the time.  It is why he did not work at HBF and probably won't on the wing.  He needs to constantly make decisions whether to attack or defend and has extremely low footy IQ for anything but a follow role imo.

I agree but I would’ve said the same about Josh Caddy and Mitch Robinson but they’ve been coached up to do it. Same with Vanders who doesn’t get much of the ball but fulfils the important structural role of the wing and hence has been our best winger (excluding Langdon) since 2018

[DeeSpencer 25,485]

I’d be tempted to give James Jordon a really sustained spell on the wing, possibly starting in the VFL or just rolling the dice and going with it. Yeah he lacks a yard of pace but he has the tank, the tackling, good size to compete in the air and neat enough skills. Importantly he seems coachable. 

His midfield ball winning is a fair way off getting regular minutes and I don’t want the kid condemned to the half forward black hole. Langdon provides the zippy winger, we only need a solid role player on the other wing. 

[DistrACTION Jackson 8,672]

Now that we have Rivers and Bowey in the backline (plus Hibberd hopefully back at some stage), surely Salem is the perfect wing option? 

I cannot believe our list management team were so delusional to think Oskar Baker was the answer when we didn't get Isaac Smith. The guy has played 12 games in total and none of those were at a level that made you think he could be a decent winger.

I said this in another thread, but right now I'm questioning Tim Lamg as our head of list management and ability to objectively view our players.

Dan Butler would've been perfect alongside Kozzie Pickett.

Tom Phillips was there for the taking and would've added more run and carry to our side and ready to go.

Are we trying to push for finals and a flag? We go and trade for older players like Brown and  May and then keep going back to the draft. By the time the drafted players are able to add to the side May and Brown will be past it.

 

[NeveroddoreveN 1,034]

4 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

I’d be tempted to give James Jordon a really sustained spell on the wing, possibly starting in the VFL or just rolling the dice and going with it. Yeah he lacks a yard of pace but he has the tank, the tackling, good size to compete in the air and neat enough skills. Importantly he seems coachable. 

His midfield ball winning is a fair way off getting regular minutes and I don’t want the kid condemned to the half forward black hole. Langdon provides the zippy winger, we only need a solid role player on the other wing. 

Watching the game vs the Doggies he actually found space quite a few times on the outside but was not seen or used as the outlet.  He does seem to have the tank and looks a decent kick.  Hope to see a lot more of him this during the year.  Seems to have the ability to play inside or out.  He could be a point of difference to our other on ballers.  Really hope he gains confidence and gives us options going forward!

[NeveroddoreveN 1,034]

9 minutes ago, Action Jackson said:

Now that we have Rivers and Bowey in the backline (plus Hibberd hopefully back at some stage), surely Salem is the perfect wing option? 

I cannot believe our list management team were so delusional to think Oskar Baker was the answer when we didn't get Isaac Smith. The guy has played 12 games in total and none of those were at a level that made you think he could be a decent winger.

I said this in another thread, but right now I'm questioning Tim Lamg as our head of list management and ability to objectively view our players.

Dan Butler would've been perfect alongside Kozzie Pickett.

Tom Phillips was there for the taking and would've added more run and carry to our side and ready to go.

Are we trying to push for finals and a flag? We go and trade for older players like Brown and  May and then keep going back to the draft. By the time the drafted players are able to add to the side May and Brown will be past it.

 

It does seem a bit of a scattergun approach to recruiting.  I tend to agree we probably rate internally our guys too high on blind faith. 

Salem is a great player but not sure has the pace required for wing to work up and back down the field. Bowey for the wing seems a better fit.  Another option i think worth testing would be Bowey to HBF, and release Salem into HFF effectively taking Melkshams spot.

I find it concerning we have forward and back groups that seem to have their cards stamped that they can't play at other end of ground.  We have flexibility within our list but seem very gun shy on trying them in other positions.  i don't believe Goodwin has a clear plan ultimately.  Watching players like Hunt get switched from back to forward, to back and forward, then back again really makes me think we are not developing a lot of our list at all appropriately.

[DeeSpencer 25,485]

53 minutes ago, Action Jackson said:

Now that we have Rivers and Bowey in the backline (plus Hibberd hopefully back at some stage), surely Salem is the perfect wing option? 

I cannot believe our list management team were so delusional to think Oskar Baker was the answer when we didn't get Isaac Smith. The guy has played 12 games in total and none of those were at a level that made you think he could be a decent winger.

I said this in another thread, but right now I'm questioning Tim Lamg as our head of list management and ability to objectively view our players.

Dan Butler would've been perfect alongside Kozzie Pickett.

Tom Phillips was there for the taking and would've added more run and carry to our side and ready to go.

Are we trying to push for finals and a flag? We go and trade for older players like Brown and  May and then keep going back to the draft. By the time the drafted players are able to add to the side May and Brown will be past it.

 

Salem isn't really a fit for the wing. His best attribute is composure and ball use under pressure in congestion and he's really strong at ground ball contests too. You want him getting the ball in traffic and feeding it out to runners or through congestion. Half a game for Bowey and Rivers in his second year isn't exactly conclusive that we don't need Salem from half back too.

Butler was a miss, but he was also injury prone and flighty. He's added some size and steel since moving to the Saints.

It's clear with their decisions on other players that the Pies prioritised salary cap savings over draft picks when trading out players. Our interest really dried up as soon as it became evident we couldn't move off Tom McDonald. Phillips wasn't worth sacrificing our salary cap and the need to save cash to sign up Oliver and Petracca.

Our method seems to be to aim for a Port model of hoping the young kids can provide fairly instant impact and rejuvenate the older guys. I'm also not sure we had much choice but to go back to the draft given there's a fair gap in our recruiting success between the Oliver pick and the 2019 crop. There's an initial window with May/Gawn/B Brown that might be 3-4 years but still a longer window with Tracc/Oliver/Lever/Langdon/Salem etc that could last for a long time if we get things right.

The lack of turnover in list spots especially after 2019 is certainly frustrating. We kept a lot of players we didn't have confidence in and haven't added a lot of state league or delisted players and looked for diamonds in the rough. The worst example of this to me is the Wagner's. The coach had no intention of ever playing them. There's zero point having depth players who aren't trusted to be used as depth.

We made a similar mistake with this years SSP. We had 2 list spots and we only invited a couple of raw kids with links to the club who were both long shots. I'd like to know why Majak or another ruck, a state league or overlooked draftee winger and a state league key defender all weren't invited to train all summer.

[Turner 1,508]

3 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

Salem isn't really a fit for the wing. His best attribute is composure and ball use under pressure in congestion and he's really strong at ground ball contests too. You want him getting the ball in traffic and feeding it out to runners or through congestion. Half a game for Bowey and Rivers in his second year isn't exactly conclusive that we don't need Salem from half back too.

Butler was a miss, but he was also injury prone and flighty. He's added some size and steel since moving to the Saints.

It's clear with their decisions on other players that the Pies prioritised salary cap savings over draft picks when trading out players. Our interest really dried up as soon as it became evident we couldn't move off Tom McDonald. Phillips wasn't worth sacrificing our salary cap and the need to save cash to sign up Oliver and Petracca.

Our method seems to be to aim for a Port model of hoping the young kids can provide fairly instant impact and rejuvenate the older guys. I'm also not sure we had much choice but to go back to the draft given there's a fair gap in our recruiting success between the Oliver pick and the 2019 crop. There's an initial window with May/Gawn/B Brown that might be 3-4 years but still a longer window with Tracc/Oliver/Lever/Langdon/Salem etc that could last for a long time if we get things right.

The lack of turnover in list spots especially after 2019 is certainly frustrating. We kept a lot of players we didn't have confidence in and haven't added a lot of state league or delisted players and looked for diamonds in the rough. The worst example of this to me is the Wagner's. The coach had no intention of ever playing them. There's zero point having depth players who aren't trusted to be used as depth.

We made a similar mistake with this years SSP. We had 2 list spots and we only invited a couple of raw kids with links to the club who were both long shots. I'd like to know why Majak or another ruck, a state league or overlooked draftee winger and a state league key defender all weren't invited to train all summer.

you've basically just descibed the perfect model for a near side winger, the fat side where all the space is you have ur speed, ur bounce, ur engine working up and back but near side where the ball spends most of the time you want a exactly what you descirbed. thats why we've tried jones, vanders, harmes coz theyre bigger bodies.

i completely agree re the SSP situation and holding onto blokes too long. Hunt will be a 9 year servant of our club when hes next OOC! for what? 6 good games? its pathetic and vandenberg is just an injury prone meatball who has never displayed any level of actual footballing ability or ability to accumulate possessions as a midfielder and he's not a goalkicker so what is he? this years OOC group contain our entire 2018 draft neg sparrow but include baker who have a combined 15 games. i'd love to know how that stacks up across the competition i can't imagine it's too healthy from 4 players. u can hardly call them young kids anymore they should be afl standard/regular contributors but they're not

[DistrACTION Jackson 8,672]

48 minutes ago, Turner said:

you've basically just descibed the perfect model for a near side winger, the fat side where all the space is you have ur speed, ur bounce, ur engine working up and back but near side where the ball spends most of the time you want a exactly what you descirbed. thats why we've tried jones, vanders, harmes coz theyre bigger bodies.

i completely agree re the SSP situation and holding onto blokes too long. Hunt will be a 9 year servant of our club when hes next OOC! for what? 6 good games? its pathetic and vandenberg is just an injury prone meatball who has never displayed any level of actual footballing ability or ability to accumulate possessions as a midfielder and he's not a goalkicker so what is he? this years OOC group contain our entire 2018 draft neg sparrow but include baker who have a combined 15 games. i'd love to know how that stacks up across the competition i can't imagine it's too healthy from 4 players. u can hardly call them young kids anymore they should be afl standard/regular contributors but they're not

The fact we gave Vandenberg a 3 year deal after his injury issues is a joke.

Again the list management has been questionable at best, but in my view extremely poor.

[DeeSpencer 25,485]

25 minutes ago, Action Jackson said:

The fact we gave Vandenberg a 3 year deal after his injury issues is a joke.

Again the list management has been questionable at best, but in my view extremely poor.

Should we have traded him when he was an important player in the best 22 of a prelim team? I was happy to go the 3rd year rather than flicking him to the Swans for a nothing draft pick. That’s the alternative which we did for Kent and Hannan. 

[DeeSpencer 25,485]

1 hour ago, Turner said:

you've basically just descibed the perfect model for a near side winger, the fat side where all the space is you have ur speed, ur bounce, ur engine working up and back but near side where the ball spends most of the time you want a exactly what you descirbed. thats why we've tried jones, vanders, harmes coz theyre bigger bodies.

Nice theory if you constantly kick the ball down one side or there’s a consistent breeze. We overuse the members wing but it’s not something we want to do more of. I’d imagine a lot of those wingers have been because they’re the only fit runners we’ve had.

The high half back role sets up in a similar role at stoppages, does less unrewarded running and gets more easy kicks and more value for them. It’s more important. We saw what happened to the teams ball use from stoppages and the backline without Salem against the Dogs.

[Turner 1,508]

3 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

Should we have traded him when he was an important player in the best 22 of a prelim team? I was happy to go the 3rd year rather than flicking him to the Swans for a nothing draft pick. That’s the alternative which we did for Kent and Hannan. 

he played 7 games for the season... we didnt need him to get where we got to especially with the strength of our mids and the fact we would have known we had eyes on two inside mids at the draft (sparrow+jordon) with lewis and jones still in there too

  and yes i'm so glad we did it with kent and hannan and wish we'd done it with hunt too when the dons seemed keen pre signing nick hind

[58er 6,398]

18 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

I agree but I would’ve said the same about Josh Caddy and Mitch Robinson but they’ve been coached up to do it. Same with Vanders who doesn’t get much of the ball but fulfils the important structural role of the wing and hence has been our best winger (excluding Langdon) since 2018

DS You are delusional!!!

AVB our best winger since 2018???!

Seriously is that any praise or recommendation ?  He may have played 10 games but he has agsin   been unfit And he has lost any pace he had.

Would have averaged less than 10 disposals I would guess.

Let's go for youth Or IMO give ANB a chance with his gut run and carry !

[NeveroddoreveN 1,034]

1 hour ago, 58er said:

DS You are delusional!!!

AVB our best winger since 2018???!

Seriously is that any praise or recommendation ?  He may have played 10 games but he has agsin   been unfit And he has lost any pace he had.

Would have averaged less than 10 disposals I would guess.

Let's go for youth Or IMO give ANB a chance with his gut run and carry !

If VDB is not laying crunching tackles he should not be in the team imo.

When he is up and about creating pressure he makes our team walk taller.   When he is not he adds very little.  

Having to manage training loads means he can't do the running required on game day.

Honestly it is like local suburban footy, where a gun player does not have to train but is picked in the 1's regardless.

But this is the AFL....if you can't train properly you actually can't practice properly, nor run out games without extreme player management.   I don't think VDB is near good enough to be automatic in our team.  

VDB has been like a barometer for us at times.  We can't depend on him to get us up and about these days though, we need to find the next guys ready to step up!

[DeeSpencer 25,485]

2 hours ago, 58er said:

DS You are delusional!!!

AVB our best winger since 2018???!

Seriously is that any praise or recommendation ?  He may have played 10 games but he has agsin   been unfit And he has lost any pace he had.

Would have averaged less than 10 disposals I would guess.

Let's go for youth Or IMO give ANB a chance with his gut run and carry !

I didn’t say he’s been good but compared with Tyson, Jones, Baker, half the 2019 list and so on he’s the only one who’s done the job. 

[Fat Tony 5,220]

We don't really have a good wing solution for the season, but for the early rounds with all our injuries, I would be going with Tomlinson again. This opens up a spot for Petty in the backline. My thinking is that the longer games and less rotations will suit the endurance runners like Tomlinson.

[Pickett2Jackson 3,904]

Some suggestions for Tomlinson back to  the wing, and I have to agree.  Let him use his  huge tank on the MCG where he can run all day and present a target.

Yes he has limitations but its the best we can do for now.

 

[58er 6,398]

4 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

I didn’t say he’s been good but compared with Tyson, Jones, Baker, half the 2019 list and so on he’s the only one who’s done the job. 

And exactly which job has he done DS???

Kept out of the way of the fitter faster Runners from half back and forward???

Please don't treat the position like this he hasn't "done the job" on any scale of AFL not even his reduced contributions of recent times.

If you are lauding AVB your expectations and hopes are severely diminished for any of our players.

Moreover  he Melky Hunty Jets are responsible for our dilemma now as their age and output since 2018 have dropped dramatically in form and intensity. No longer are they getting enough possessions or providing the drive and passion Yet Goody has blindly stuck the fat to our teams detriment and development.

Your approval of AVB has the same old keep the youth out message that Goody has Proliferated for too long since 2018.

[DeeSpencer 25,485]

15 minutes ago, 58er said:

And exactly which job has he done DS???

Kept out of the way of the fitter faster Runners from half back and forward???

Please don't treat the position like this he hasn't "done the job" on any scale of AFL not even his reduced contributions of recent times.

If you are lauding AVB your expectations and hopes are severely diminished for any of our players.

Moreover  he Melky Hunty Jets are responsible for our dilemma now as their age and output since 2018 have dropped dramatically in form and intensity. No longer are they getting enough possessions or providing the drive and passion Yet Goody has blindly stuck the fat to our teams detriment and development.

Your approval of AVB has the same old keep the youth out message that Goody has Proliferated for too long since 2018.

Vanders offers little in attack but gives his utmost to keep pressure on around the contest and to fold back and support the defense. It happened in 2018 and happened again in 2020 that as soon as he was switched on to a wing we started looking like a side with competent structures more often than not. The other options have barely managed to do role playing tasks coaches ask of wingers these days and apart from a couple of nice goals from Baker have done little in attack to make up for it.

Who are the young players Goodwin has been holding back? Pickett played almost every game, Jackson got early footy, Rivers he kept out of a few games probably at the behest of the defensive coach and when someone like May says he's working on Rivers' positioning it's worth noting. Spargo's played, Fritsch's played. Petty's been injured. Jordon got injured before he could debut, Sparrow played before injury. 

Baker hadn't had a full preseason and clearly had a lot of work to do on his fitness. The idea that he should've been gifted games until now just isn't right. You can argue that if he's much fitter now that we should just stick with him but through 2 preseason games it's not looking promising. 

I'm certainly not suggesting Vanders be picked next week. If he is it's bad sign. But whoever does get picked has to do some of things he actually managed to do that helped the structure of the side. The coach hasn't stuck with him out of blind loyalty, he's just been the best of a lot of bad options.