Hey Kysaiah - nice post - sure, good people on both sides - but Trump ain't one of em.

1 minute ago, Jara said:

Hey Kysaiah - nice post - sure, good people on both sides - but Trump ain't one of em.

I agree.  But lots of those who vote for his side of politics are.  (admittedly lots arent)

My point was not to tar all with the same brush 

It's becoming clear that the Republicans voters have continued to vote for their candidates in the House & in the Senate but a percentage have shifted away from Trump and either haven't voted for him at all or voted for Biden

It's not a bad system where you can do that.  The conscience vote. 

Could have happened 4 years ago except Hillary was just the wrong alternative.  Biden is seen differently thus the shift in thinking (and the numbers only needed a slight shift in percentage terms)

 

5 minutes ago, Macca said:

It's becoming clear that the Republicans voters have continued to vote for their candidates in the House & in the Senate but a percentage have shifted away from Trump and either haven't voted for him at all or voted for Biden

It's not a bad system where you can do that.  The conscience vote. 

Could have happened 4 years ago except Hillary was just the wrong alternative.  Biden is seen differently thus the shift in thinking (and the numbers only needed a slight shift in percentage terms)

 

Macca I agree mostly.  People didn't have the experience under Trump to judge him.  Now they have.  Agree Hilary Clinton wasnt the right candidate.  However I think Biden was just in the right place at the right time.  I'm not 100% sold that the vote was for him. I think the change was coming regardless of candidate, based on Trump himself.

6 hours ago, dieter said:

Unfortunately, many Hispanics and Blacks voted Trump. 

Not as a percentage, especially blacks (12%?). Hispanic is more nuanced and seems to vary a lot by region, though the anti "left" cuban-Americans in Florida weren't all that hard to get onside.

15 minutes ago, KysaiahMessiah said:

Agree Hilary Clinton wasnt the right candidate

For another time, but disagree. Misogyny runs deep - you only have to look at some of the commentary regarding Kamala Harris after the VP debate. On top of that, the Republicans put 20 years into Hillary, and that adds up. Also not helped by the both-sidesism and news-as-product of the mainstream media.

3 minutes ago, KysaiahMessiah said:

Macca I agree mostly.  People didn't have the experience under Trump to judge him.  Now they have.  Agree Hilary Clinton wasnt the right candidate.  However I think Biden was just in the right place at the right time.  I'm not 100% sold that the vote was for him. I think the change was coming regardless of candidate, based on Trump himself.

I'd be interested to know whether the Senate,  House and/or Pres vote is on the same ballot

And if they are separate,  do the numbers match up (in totality)

Gut feeling is that Republicans voted for their candidates in the House & in the Senate and then simply didn't vote for either candidate for the Presidential election.  For instance, it's looking like the Senate will have strong Republican influence

But even a 2% informal vote against Trump can make the world of difference in such a closely run race

And there is nothing wrong with voting for the Right as far as I'm concerned.  I'm probably 60/40 but I don't agree with a number of policies on either side.  And equally,  there's a lot to like on both sides.  In Australia I reckon we end up with the right sort of mix

Although the Americans might see the Liberal party here as Socialists!

My wish is for those on the Left & Right to critique their own side with honest appraisals.  Makes for much more interesting debate and a greater consensus

But that will probably never happen ... especially with the rusted on types.  They won't give an inch Kysa!  haha

6 hours ago, dieter said:

Unfortunately, many Hispanics and Blacks voted Trump. 

They voted Trump from a fear of "Socialism" and "Communism". It takes priority over Trump's racism.

If it's not Trump in four years, it'll be someone else. The Democrats are like the rest of the centre left parties in the Western world. Completely abandoned their base and working people and front big capital nowadays. 

I hear Pelosi and other 'moderates' have already blastered so called 'socialist' elements in the party for allegedly being the reason for Trump's good showing in this election. When the rest of the party sits on the centre right, it makes the centre left position look radical.

Real wages have been in steep decline since the 1970s and it's when all the traditionally centre left parties turned to neoliberalism and fraudulent economics. These economics have been fuelled by deregulation and private debt, and have eventually led to stagnation. So without a change in economics, these parties will be left marooned.

If you look at the ALP here, I think they'll win the next election because even with the media oligarchy in this country, you can't have an underutilisation rate of 20.3% and expect to be re elected. I think that underutilisation rate is going to get worse next year too. 

This doesn't mean the ALP are offering a radically different approach. They'll be better for the country, but not necessarily for working people. Labor essentially sit where John Hewson's LNP did. They're fiscally and socially conservative.

The Democrats are the same and with the spectre of COVID lingering for years, people need answers and people need jobs. I'm not convinced the Democrats will provide many more jobs than Trump would. Biden at least has one of the most influential economists in the world on his economic team and I think she could well be the Milton Friedman of the next 25 years in terms of influence.

Edited November 7, 20204 yr by A F

1 hour ago, bing181 said:

For another time, but disagree. Misogyny runs deep - you only have to look at some of the commentary regarding Kamala Harris after the VP debate. On top of that, the Republicans put 20 years into Hillary, and that adds up. Also not helped by the both-sidesism and news-as-product of the mainstream media.

Um, misogyny has nil to do with my hatred of this putrid woman: I'll remind you. Do you recall when the US and Nato raped Libya? It caused total mayhem afterwards due to refugee crises, and today Libya is a total basket case, where slavery has returned full scale. The rape of Libya was Hillary's baby. When the so-called 'rebels' - the very same mercenaries were sent to try and rape Syria- had murdered Gaddafi, this pig of a woman said, We came, we saw, Gaddafi died.

Edited November 7, 20204 yr by dieter

I worry about Joe Biden. I sure hope he has top notch security around him at all times. He is a prime target for a deranged Trump supporter to take it upon themselves to avenge the perceived "cheating" that has occurred. 

Did anyone see the footage of the fleet of Trump supporters in their pickups trying to run a Biden/Harris coach off the highway before election day? Scary stuff. Trump has stirred up many people's basest hatreds and emotions with inflammatory language. The big problem is these people carry guns.

Unsettled times ahead.

7 hours ago, Macca said:

8 hours ago, dieter said:

Unfortunately, many Hispanics and Blacks voted Trump. 

Racism is often well disguised dieter

A wolf in sheeps clothing and all that.  People get sucked in.  Happens in politics,  religion,  sport etc etc

Thought I’d jump on this thread to see what the chat was like. Pretty much as expected

This above exchange just jumps off the page at me.

Do you mind elaborating further Macca on how Hispanics and black people who voted for Trump have been “sucked in” as you put it? I’m really interested to hear your exposition. 

Edited November 7, 20204 yr by Better days ahead

4 hours ago, Better days ahead said:

Thought I’d jump on this thread to see what the chat was like. Pretty much as expected

This above exchange just jumps off the page at me.

Do you mind elaborating further Macca on how Hispanics and black people who voted for Trump have been “sucked in” as you put it? I’m really interested to hear your exposition. 

We all get roped in to all sorts of situations and not everyone is wired the same way

A lot of Black people & Hispanics may not even realise that Trump is a racist.  A number of people from any sort of background can be mesmerised by Trump as well.  He has a way of getting a buy-in.  His own form of charisma

For instance,  as previously stated,  many of Trump's redneck supporters wouldn't admit that Trump is a racist nor would they regard him as a racist.  Nor would they themselves admit to being racists.  They see their own behavior as 'Normal'

And I'm talking about the extreme groups not all those who vote Republican.  Just a certain percentage

 

Edited November 7, 20204 yr by Macca

Joe Biden wins the Presidency!

Pennsylvania clinches the deal ... but he is likely to end up with 306 Electoral College Votes

A comprehensive victory in the end

On top of that he wins the popular vote by well over 4 million votes.  A record number of votes

 

Edited November 7, 20204 yr by Macca

For Sale: One red hat, size 10XL, orange dye-stained. 

Regardless of whatever side of the political spectrum you may personally lean to, both 70-year old candidates should be congratulated on maintaining an election for several days.

14 hours ago, Macca said:

We all get roped in to all sorts of situations and not everyone is wired the same way

A lot of Black people & Hispanics may not even realise that Trump is a racist.  A number of people from any sort of background can be mesmerised by Trump as well.  He has a way of getting a buy-in.  His own form of charisma

For instance,  as previously stated,  many of Trump's redneck supporters wouldn't admit that Trump is a racist nor would they regard him as a racist.  Nor would they themselves admit to being racists.  They see their own behavior as 'Normal'

And I'm talking about the extreme groups not all those who vote Republican.  Just a certain percentage

 

Do you really think that blacks and hispanics were somehow tricked by Trump? 18% of black men and 35% of the Latino vote all too stupid to work Trump out.

As well as being lazy analysis, it is patronising and condescending. Dare i say it, RACIST. You have absolutely no clue what you are talking about.

I suggest you listen to some black intellectuals to get a handle on whats really going on. The likes of Glenn Loury, John McWhorter, Coleman Hughes etc. They will give you a much better understanding of what black americans really think rather than the dangerous nonsense that the NYT and Guardian spout.

Trump and his influence on the Republican party is not going away. If you don’t make a genuine effort to understand Trumpism and the people who voted for him (70 million odd) you will never be able to combat or respond to it effectively.

Good day to you Macca.

Edited November 8, 20204 yr by Better days ahead

2 hours ago, Better days ahead said:

As well as being lazy analysis

No it's not ... as previously stated, not all people from any demographic think and act in the same way.  So you are going to get different outcomes.  People like you seem to think that certain 'groups' should all think, act (and vote) in the same way

In fact,  I'd argue that most people think differently to each other

As an example not all non-college-educated blue-collar white American men would vote for a racist like Trump.  In fact approximately 40% of that demographic don't vote for Trump

But that won't stop some people pointing the finger at that group and labeling them all as racists.  And they'd be wrong but both sides get it wrong

Anyway,  Trump lost so swallow the bitter pill.  The white Supremacist is no more (not in the same anyway)

If that makes you sad have a good weep

Biden wouldn't have been my choice as a candidate but he'll endeavour to at least unite the USA as a starting point

Trump is just a divisive figure.  At no stage did he ever try and govern for all Americans.  Much like many of his madcap supporters,  he was only interested in winning

The Karma bus has arrived at his doorstep

 

 

 

 

.

Edited November 8, 20204 yr by Macca

2 hours ago, Better days ahead said:

Do you really think that blacks and hispanics were somehow tricked by Trump? 18% of black men and 35% of the Latino vote all too stupid to work Trump out.

As well as being lazy analysis, it is patronising and condescending. Dare i say it, RACIST. You have absolutely no clue what you are talking about.

I suggest you listen to some black intellectuals to get a handle on whats really going on. The likes of Glenn Loury, John McWhorter, Coleman Hughes etc. They will give you a much better understanding of what black americans really think rather than the dangerous nonsense that the NYT and Guardian spout.

Trump and his influence on the Republican party is not going away. If you don’t make a genuine effort to understand Trumpism and the people who voted for him (70 million odd) you will never be able to combat or respond to it effectively.

Good day to you Macca.

Fair enough, but you need to be more accurate. Of course, no ethnic group is monolithic. But when you say  that reading Loury etc will give you a better understanding of what black Americans really think, you should admit that they're barely representative. According to this:

 

https://www.vox.com/2020/11/4/21537966/trump-black-voters-exit-polls

 

only 8% of black voters voted for Trump.  

A recent addition to the Oval Office

 

1 minute ago, Jara said:

Fair enough, but you need to be more accurate. Of course, no ethnic group is monolithic. But when you say  that reading Loury etc will give you a better understanding of what black Americans really think, you should admit that they're barely representative. According to this:

 

https://www.vox.com/2020/11/4/21537966/trump-black-voters-exit-polls

 

only 8% of black voters voted for Trump.  

And then when you add in the 10% rule of thumb,  there's your answer.  Batting above the average in some ways

For those not knowing what the 10% rule of thumb is,  ask anyone in law enforcement

20 hours ago, Macca said:

It's becoming clear that the Republicans voters have continued to vote for their candidates in the House & in the Senate but a percentage have shifted away from Trump and either haven't voted for him at all or voted for Biden

It's not a bad system where you can do that.  The conscience vote. 

Could have happened 4 years ago except Hillary was just the wrong alternative.  Biden is seen differently thus the shift in thinking (and the numbers only needed a slight shift in percentage terms)

 

Votes 2016

Clinton - 65,853,514 More Americans voted for Hillary Clinton than any other losing presidential ... and certified final election results from all 50 states and the District of Columbia

Trump - 62,984,828

Trump polled over 70 million this time so i don't think that his supporters shifted away from him. He now has the honour of having the highest number of votes for a losing presidential candidate.

I'm not a Trump fan but I'm not a Biden fan either and doubt he will last twelve months, so it will be Harris as President for the majority of this term, unless he can get Obama to run the office for him the same way he ran his campaign,

What I hate is the way any Trump supporter is labelled a Redneck, Racist, uneducated white trash, this in itself is racist, you don't have to be coloured to suffer racial abuse, not on this forum, anyway.

2 hours ago, Macca said:

No it's not ... as previously stated, not all people from any demographic think and act in the same way.  So you are going to get different outcomes.  People like you seem to think that certain 'groups' should all think, act (and vote) in the same way

In fact,  I'd argue that most people think differently to each other

As an example not all non-college-educated blue-collar white American men would vote for a racist like Trump.  In fact approximately 40% of that demographic don't vote for Trump

But that won't stop some people pointing the finger at that group and labeling them all as racists.  And they'd be wrong but both sides get it wrong

Anyway,  Trump lost so swallow the bitter pill.  The white Supremacist is no more (not in the same anyway)

If that makes you sad have a good weep

Biden wouldn't have been my choice as a candidate but he'll endeavour to at least unite the USA as a starting point

Trump is just a divisive figure.  At no stage did he ever try and govern for all Americans.  Much like many of his madcap supporters,  he was only interested in winning

The Karma bus has arrived at his doorstep

 

 

 

 

.

For the record I’m no fan of Trump. His character flaws are manifest and his divisive leadership exactly what the US (and the world) does not need.

But his political instincts are pretty sharp. He spoke directly to the constituency that the Democrats deserted, the working poor. Hard to believe a property magnate from Manhattan could do that. Just shows how much the Democrats dropped the ball.

I agree all groups think differently. Your original comments implied otherwise.

I doubt Biden will be much better but I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt. More presidential in tone and measured rhetoric I’m sure but I think he’ll serve the interests of the DNC donors.

2 hours ago, Dante said:

Votes 2016

Clinton - 65,853,514 More Americans voted for Hillary Clinton than any other losing presidential ... and certified final election results from all 50 states and the District of Columbia

Trump - 62,984,828

Trump polled over 70 million this time so i don't think that his supporters shifted away from him. He now has the honour of having the highest number of votes for a losing presidential candidate.

I'm not a Trump fan but I'm not a Biden fan either and doubt he will last twelve months, so it will be Harris as President for the majority of this term, unless he can get Obama to run the office for him the same way he ran his campaign,

What I hate is the way any Trump supporter is labelled a Redneck, Racist, uneducated white trash, this in itself is racist, you don't have to be coloured to suffer racial abuse, not on this forum, anyway.

From my point of view it isn't all Trump fans who are rednecks & racists.  Far from it.  But that element can be a bit loud about their views

Equally (with regards to your post and 'Better's post that followed) you've both disassociated yourselves from those narrow-minded views.  Which is a good thing

Same as I'm happy to associate myself with of l

 

ower company taxes for big business and real tax breaks for small business.  The left don't necessarly share those particular views and I often wonder why

The infrastructure,  job opportunities,  building works,  wealth and vibrant economies emanating from well run businesses can benefit all.  And the Right side of politics recognises all that.  As did Trump.  And many Democrats

To me the problem is the far left & the alt-right

And winning is one thing but governance is an entirely different matter.  Bit like the MFC and the people in positions of responsibilty.  As individuals,  do they pass the test and excel? What about the various Board's we've had?

You are right though,  the brush from some tars all.  And that's wrong.  Clearly wrong

As for the voting percentages,  it's proportional Dante.  The same high figures applied to the Senate & House seats.  The numbers were through the roof but Trump's numbers might have been down 2% or so from the House & Senate Republican numbers. 

And that's all it takes.  Add that 2% in and he wins again.

I stand corrected on the actual numbers but that's the opinion coming from some news outlets in the States

Edited November 8, 20204 yr by Macca

I think it's less about Republican voters versus Democrat voters, although that's also in there somewhere.

Many who voted for Trump were seemingly sick of not being heard by the political establishment. Trump was able to very effectively character assassinate Clinton by linking her with the establishment. Bernie Sanders is very similar. And it's happening all across neoliberal Europe too (Le Pen, Five Star, Johnson etc). They're anti-establishment.

Where Trump is concerned, he represents himself, but in order to maintain some power he's pursued one off tokenistic moves like using the power of the US state to ensure Ford moved their factory back to the US, instead of going ahead in Mexico. His prison reforms also played to a certain base too and because he positioned himself as a non politician and businessman, his focus on jobs resonated with people more than the words of the establishment would. 

He didn't care about these people, he cares about power. It's how China works. It's why they're pursuing the One Belt One Road project. To lift their people out of poverty, but also and mainly, to maintain power.

Despite being someone from outside the alleged political elite, he's a very effective politician and his political theatre (rooted in Russian political technology, blending theatre and politics - see HyperNormalisation) has had the establishment completely confused for 2-3 years. 

I think it's too simplistic to view groups of people in monolithic terms and the last 4 years has probably taught the supposed left that. Whether they recognise this is another thing. 

Edited November 8, 20204 yr by A F