Game plans, tactics and all that jazz

[WheeloRatings 1,163]

44 minutes ago, Engorged Onion said:

@WheeloRatings - can you confirm how the Marks Inside 50 Rate is derived? Cheers

Nice to see we are slightly above average. Never feels like it when watching the game!!

Marks inside 50 rate is "marks inside forward 50" divided by "inside 50s". Melbourne is ranked a bit lower on that metric than marks inside 50 because of the high number of inside 50s.

I have descriptions of many of the fields further down that page, if you're not sure about any of the other fields.

[BangBnagBang 703]

On 8/2/2023 at 9:30 AM, titan_uranus said:

Wasn't sure where else to post this so figured here.

Did anyone else hear Daniel Hoyne from Champion Data talking about May?

He noticed that this week May played higher up the ground, winning 43% of his possessions across half-back (his highest for the year) and 43% inside D50 (his lowest for the year). Noted that in Round 6 he took Riewoldt but this week we left that to Tomlinson and let May push higher up the ground.

Do we think this is going to become a trend for us, or more of a one off? If the former, would support the idea that we're going to keep playing Tomlinson (at least so long as Petty stays forward).

 

On 8/2/2023 at 10:51 AM, Go the Biff said:

Hoyne was really interesting.  He also reeled off some impressive stats regarding Thomo and one on one contests.

With regard to May I suspect it will all come down to match ups as to how far up the ground he plays.  He's more versatile than Thomo as a defender and the FD will look at who they want him to play on rather than where. 

My thoughts would it would be purely match ups. Against Rich Jack was the best match up for Thomo and May could take a smaller option which is not Thomos go. It will be interesting with finals teams v North. North only have Larkey and maybe the resting ruck. Do we play Thommo on Larkey and May on a small or does May take Larkey and we bring in Hibbo for Thommo to play on a small.

[leave it to deever 17,517]

1 hour ago, BangBnagBang said:

 

My thoughts would it would be purely match ups. Against Rich Jack was the best match up for Thomo and May could take a smaller option which is not Thomos go. It will be interesting with finals teams v North. North only have Larkey and maybe the resting ruck. Do we play Thommo on Larkey and May on a small or does May take Larkey and we bring in Hibbo for Thommo to play on a small.

I'm pretty sure Thommo will get Larkey.

[BangBnagBang 703]

4 hours ago, leave it to deever said:

I'm pretty sure Thommo will get Larkey.

I’m not😉

[Engorged Onion 10,223]

With the seeming re-emergence of a "tagger" or "run-with player" for a few of the sides, I'm wondering if the the game is heading in the direction where this is either

a) a case by case basis

b) will become the norm week in and week out?

If so, how do we integrate it into our 'structure's' and who on our list can do the job... and who could we trade in to do the job.

Edited August 28, 2023 by Engorged Onion

[Adam The God 30,407]

I reckon Sparrow can do the job.

But I don't think it fits with our philosophy. 

[Slartibartfast 17,624]

Yes, but what does Binman say?

[dee-tox 4,835]

Sparrow, Viney and Jordon, when he plays, are the run with players in the midfield. They often get jobs we don't see.

[dazzledavey36 55,318]

All signs of a premiership team right there.

The numbers are eerily similar to 2021.

[Adam The God 30,407]

15 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

All signs of a premiership team right there.

The numbers are eerily similar to 2021.

Who's first for CPs mate? Any idea?

[BW511 2,688]

Doesn’t Joeboy congratulate players on tagging jobs each week?

We can’t afford to do it because it means another part of the system breaks down. 
 

Having said that, Jordon or Sparrow would be my pick. I’d also think Rivers could do it too now his tank is getting bigger.

[dazzledavey36 55,318]

2 hours ago, Binmans PA said:

Who's first for CPs mate? Any idea?

No didn't say mate, but did some research myself and according to @WheeloRatings we are actually 1st? Crows are second.

[Jaded No More 68,973]

3 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

No didn't say mate, but did some research myself and according to @WheeloRatings we are actually 1st? Crows are second.

This is correct. We are first for CP. 

Also first for inside 50s and intercepts. 
 

[dazzledavey36 55,318]

8 minutes ago, Jaded No More said:

This is correct. We are first for CP. 

Also first for inside 50s and intercepts. 
 

Again, fixing the typo from On The Couch then those numbers right there are key premiership credentials.

Our game is in as good as spot as it has been since 2021, which is why I genuinely think we'll win the flag this year if we can overcome Collingwood, which I know we will.

[deanox 9,989]

13 hours ago, Engorged Onion said:

With the seeming re-emergence of a "tagger" or "run-with player" for a few of the sides, I'm wondering if the the game is heading in the direction where this is either

a) a case by case basis

b) will become the norm week in and week out?

If so, how do we integrate it into our 'structure's' and who on our list can do the job... and who could we trade in to do the job.

I feel like our "tagging" hasnt been about midfielders, it's been about half forwards and half backs.

We used Rivers as an offensive weapon on dangerous half forwards, making them accountable.

We use Melksham* on dangerous defenders, making them accountable.

It's not the same as "stopping/tagging" but it is our way of taking key opposition players out of the game by moving them out of where they want to be structurally.

Opposition teams try to do this with Lever. When we have Turner in this becomes more difficult because he can play the intercept role too.

 

 

*Melksham is a bigger out than many realise. He has been unbelievable this year shutting down intercept players like Harris Andrews and Darcy Moore serially and by making them accountable. I don't believe we have a true replacement for him and am unsure how our structure will look with him missing. If TMac comes in, it may become JVRs job (JVR often took those players when Melksham was on the bench). Melkshams out really hurts our premiership chances I think.

Edited August 28, 2023 by deanox

[Mach5 4,768]

I was concerned about this also, and I think it may be Tmac who fills the Melksham shaped void. He has always seemed to me to be a very frustrating player to play against because he doesn’t seem to be that good, but if you don’t respect his abilities he’ll bob up with 2-3 goals that you shouldn’t really let him kick.

[deanox 9,989]

2 hours ago, Mach5 said:

I was concerned about this also, and I think it may be Tmac who fills the Melksham shaped void. He has always seemed to me to be a very frustrating player to play against because he doesn’t seem to be that good, but if you don’t respect his abilities he’ll bob up with 2-3 goals that you shouldn’t really let him kick.

Perhaps. 

I just know how hard we worked each week to get Melksham "on" the defender we wanted. Lots of byplay and muck around in the forward line to get it the way we wanted.

And it never involved Melksham rolling up to half forward and the wing, the way TMac tends to play. But it didn't involve starting deep. Can TMac do that? Can TMac interfere with the contest the way Melksham did without giving away free kicks? I'm not convinced.

[Jaded No More 68,973]

8 hours ago, deanox said:

I feel like our "tagging" hasnt been about midfielders, it's been about half forwards and half backs.

We used Rivers as an offensive weapon on dangerous half forwards, making them accountable.

We use Melksham* on dangerous defenders, making them accountable.

It's not the same as "stopping/tagging" but it is our way of taking key opposition players out of the game by moving them out of where they want to be structurally.

Opposition teams try to do this with Lever. When we have Turner in this becomes more difficult because he can play the intercept role too.

 

 

*Melksham is a bigger out than many realise. He has been unbelievable this year shutting down intercept players like Harris Andrews and Darcy Moore serially and by making them accountable. I don't believe we have a true replacement for him and am unsure how our structure will look with him missing. If TMac comes in, it may become JVRs job (JVR often took those players when Melksham was on the bench). Melkshams out really hurts our premiership chances I think.

I think Joel Smith can play the defensive role, which is why I want McDonald to come in and play an attacking role. 
Granted Smith is nowhere near the offensive or defensive weapon Melksham is. 

[binman 43,755]

10 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Again, fixing the typo from On The Couch then those numbers right there are key premiership credentials.

Our game is in as good as spot as it has been since 2021, which is why I genuinely think we'll win the flag this year if we can overcome Collingwood, which I know we will.

The most bullish I can ever recall you being dazzler.

Agree with your sentiments. I'd add we are clearly running out games the best of the contenders.

I reckon GWS are the only team close in terms of fitness and running power late in quarters and games.

[binman 43,755]

25 minutes ago, Jaded No More said:

I think Joel Smith can play the defensive role, which is why I want McDonald to come in and play an attacking role. 
Granted Smith is nowhere near the offensive or defensive weapon Melksham is. 

I agree, smithy might get the 'diffuser' role melky has been playing and reference (ie not a pure defensive forward) the oppoos best intercepting defender (Moore or Murphy in the QF).

I reckon its actually a perfect role for Smithy because, one, we now need someone to play it, two he has the attributes and discipline and three he can still create, zone off, go third man up, fly for his marks etc etc and make his defender super accountable.

In some ways he'll be a better option than melk. Melk has been brilliant, but although gets up the ground is a touch slow and that can be exposed defensively.

Smith gets up and down the ground to help out on all team defence better than Melk, so we may not need another high half forward player in the starting 22 (meaning Laurie or Spargs can be the sub and come in and do that high half forward gut running as required).

And it mitigates the risk of bringing in tmac, should we be considering it, in terms of tmacs lack of pace.

 

[dazzledavey36 55,318]

44 minutes ago, binman said:

The most bullish I can ever recall you being dazzler.

Agree with your sentiments. I'd add we are clearly running out games the best of the contenders.

I reckon GWS are the only team close in terms of fitness and running power late in quarters and games.

Yep.

I saw a huge shift in the way Goody coached and if there was a game I could pin point where it all started I would say it's the Brisbane game.

From there on, we got challenged in each and every game and yet we were able to rise above and beat those teams. Something we struggled with last year in the back half.

The other shift has been our defensive system and contest game. Our defensive status is back to being number 1 again in most areas as it was back in 2021. We're number 1 for contested footy and history will say that if you have these fundamental in perfect shape come September then you have one hand on the premiership cup already.

[MrFreeze 1,995]

We do the opposite of midfield tagging, by having our extra player behind the ball to improve our intercepting. Pretty nuts we are no 1 for CPs while often being out numbered at the contest.

[deanox 9,989]

17 minutes ago, MrFreeze said:

We do the opposite of midfield tagging, by having our extra player behind the ball to improve our intercepting. Pretty nuts we are no 1 for CPs while often being out numbered at the contest.

Yeah that's a valid point. 

It's hard to have a role for a tagger if you are already playing -1 or -2 at the contest.

[layzie 33,991]

2 hours ago, Jaded No More said:

I think Joel Smith can play the defensive role, which is why I want McDonald to come in and play an attacking role. 
Granted Smith is nowhere near the offensive or defensive weapon Melksham is. 

I also think it's worth giving this role to Smith. If T-mac looks anywhere near the running ability he had then he will be the mover and drawer forward. 

Yes I know someone is about to point out the Geelong game and Stewart but he's learned a lot in this recent stint in the side. I think he's the best one to throw the keys to for the role. 

[Adam The God 30,407]

Gonna stick this here for discussion on what needs to/could change tactically next year.

I'd be looking to do something different with the 7th defender. So instead of playing B7-M8-F7, I'd be trying to play a third winger (B6-W1-M8-F7). So probably Hunter, Langdon and ANB from W1 and M8. Which means abandoning the loose intercepting / attacking half back that Gus played last year (less attacking) and Rivers played this year (more attacking).

But instead, I'd be allowing two of our running backs more licence up the ground to run and carry (say Rivers and Bowey or maybe even McVee), use two of the wingers as defensive wing backs to slot in behind them and cover space or their men (and play as interceptors or 1v1s, ensuring the ball comes to ground), and give the attacking players more licence to try and hit central kicks through the corridor to higher mids or forwards in Trac, Fritta and McAdam pushing higher up the ground. This is with the knowledge we'd have extras behind the ball (at least two wingers) to repel a turnover attack.

It's basically utilising a similar set up to Klopp at Liverpool, but with more players. It would take great coaching and discipline from our players, but I think so much football/soccer strategy has been adopted by the AFL in the last decade, that it's only going to continue. 

Goody has also been an innovator over the journey with the inside slider, the diamond defence, the extras at the stoppage, then the deficit at the stoppage, the focus on post stoppage pressure and so on.

We have to find intricate ways to maintain our defensive positioning and impregnability, whilst being able to play fast and contested. This is one way.