Game plans, tactics and all that jazz

[binman 43,818]

1 hour ago, dino rover said:

I dont get flat from loads - dont other teams have loads as well 

 

They do. 

Which is exactly why all teams are struggling at the moment. Happens every year around the half way to 3/4 mark of the season.

Which is why scoring has completely dropped off a cliff. Again happens every year. 

And explains why there are some many rubbish games, littered with errors, turnovers and brain fades. Again happens every year.

Also explains all the crazy results in this phase of the season.  Sure we have dropped some games as favorites but there has been any number of upsets in the last few weeks. Of the top teams only Geelong have avoided an upset. Again happens every year. 

What is weird is this is not a new phenomenon. But every year it is like footy commentators and fans have collective amnesia.

And so are shocked when around the around the half way to 3/4 mark of the season scoring completely drops of, there are so many rubbish games..... 

[Engorged Onion 10,223]

A question to all those that frequent here

Assuming we win against the Eagles, I'm fascinated as to what we do with our game plan over the next two weeks.

I liked the notion that (I believe it was @binman) against the Dogs, Goodwin and co, chose not to address certain obvious 'win's that the Bulldogs were getting, be it an extra extra number at the clearance. 

I would assume that there are enough eyes, and enough acumen to be able to see what the Dogs were doing, but chose not to react or show all our hand in the lead up to the finals.

But... then there is the acknowledgement that all teams play to their strengths, and why now would we start incorporating different strategies - particularly when it has served as so well this year, against all teams.

How do you think the FD will deal with the next two weeks with respect to strategy?

[deanox 9,989]

5 minutes ago, Engorged Onion said:

A question to all those that frequent here

Assuming we win against the Eagles, I'm fascinated as to what we do with our game plan over the next two weeks.

I liked the notion that (I believe it was @binman) against the Dogs, Goodwin and co, chose not to address certain obvious 'win's that the Bulldogs were getting, be it an extra extra number at the clearance. 

I would assume that there are enough eyes, and enough acumen to be able to see what the Dogs were doing, but chose not to react or show all our hand in the lead up to the finals.

But... then there is the acknowledgement that all teams play to their strengths, and why now would we start incorporating different strategies - particularly when it has served as so well this year, against all teams.

How do you think the FD will deal with the next two weeks with respect to strategy?

I reckon we would go according to our standard plan we've played all year against Adelaide and backourselves to get it done.

And then I'd treat Geelong like the first final and play to win. Win that and we take top spot, probably get a home final against PA and a week off.

[Axis of Bob 11,853]

1 hour ago, Engorged Onion said:

How do you think the FD will deal with the next two weeks with respect to strategy?

That is the only game where a decent team has beaten us, and our structure almost won us that game despite inaccurate kicking and a 25-11 free kick count. The clearances were pretty even too, so the extra man at the stoppages wasn't really a major issue.

Our structure works and it works even better under stress, like we will see in finals. 

Every team knows how we play. Only one team in the top 8 has taken a game off us despite this. Brisbane, Richmond, Geelong and Hawthorn all played extremely predictable game plans and each of them won multiple premierships. Our plan is not obviously broken and, it could be argued, is the most obviously UNbroken. We just need to keep playing it as well as we can and challenge other teams to do it better than we do.

Edited August 9, 2021 by Axis of Bob

[deanox 9,989]

27 minutes ago, Axis of Bob said:

That is the only game where a decent team has beaten us, and our structure almost won us that game despite inaccurate kicking and a 25-11 free kick count. The clearances were pretty even too, so the extra man at the stoppages wasn't really a major issue.

Our structure works and it works even better under stress, like we will see in finals. 

Every team knows how we play. Only one team in the top 8 has taken a game off us despite this. Brisbane, Richmond, Geelong and Hawthorn all played extremely predictable game plans and each of them won multiple premierships. Our plan is not obviously broken and, it could be argued, is the most obviously UNbroken. We just need to keep playing it as well as we can and challenge other teams to do it better than we do.

I don't think it is about changes to our game plan as such, but about the little tactical things we'll do, like choosing to tag Libba.

Those things may get tweaked.

[Adam The God 30,421]

It will be interesting to see how we play tonight. Our scoring power has been questioned this year and given our defence is so solid and often impregnable, do we start to take more risks offensively and move the ball quicker?

If we can compliment our defensive game with more scoring power and offence, we'll be incredibly tough to beat come finals.

I think in the past we may have been worried that we'd sacrifice a bit defensively if we were to add in the offensive layer to our play, but now that we have 22 guys that transition both ways, I think it might well be worth trying a more run and gun style. 

It may also be a horses for courses thing. For example, against West Coast, Geelong and Brisbane who aren't overly quick, we might look to play on more and slice through their zone off half back with handballs (see the Richmond and Brisbane wins earlier in the year) and expose their lack of leg speed to get 1v1s forward of centre.

Whereas, against the Bulldogs, it seems if you take away their clearance game or even match them, they can't win games. Pressure and sit on their half backs and they basically can't get out of their defensive 50. In a game like that, I'd be happier playing a slower brand that enables us to intercept and then play a forward half game.

Against someone like Port, I think you probably need a mixture of both fast and slow play to break them down, but I'm confident our set up behind the ball will make it tough for their tall forwards.

In short, I think scoring power and accuracy are the focus for the club. If we move the ball quicker, our forwards get better looks in more dangerous positions, which in turns improves accuracy.

Edited August 9, 2021 by A F

[binman 43,818]

11 minutes ago, deanox said:

I don't think it is about changes to our game plan as such, but about the little tactical things we'll do, like choosing to tag Libba.

Those things may get tweaked.

Exactly.

No changes to our basic game plan or structure.

Perhaps just a couple of tactical tweaks against whoever we play in finals.

For example if we play Cats week one, instead of sending may to Hawkins, put Petty on him and get him to play like Taylor did last week - ie sit off him and don't engage in a wrestling match, zone off, run of him when possible etc. Or against the dogs tag Mcrae rather than Libba.  

And i suspect they will introduce the occasional subtle tactical tweak and set plays in terms of our ball movement.

I think we saw a couple of those last week.  For example May went down the middle a couple of times from the kick out - on one occasion hitting Spargo, who was all by himself, perhaps because the Suns, for good reason, were all covering the left wing.

And i wonder if there is some set plays they are introducing, like the 45 degree kick from Viney the week before last to the a player in the corridor 20 metres out from goal.

They all might well have been working on different tricks to win some more clean clearance all year in training and unveil a couple coming into the finals, or in the finals. 

[Adam The God 30,421]

It'll be interesting to see if we try some tactical flourishes against Adelaide. I can't see how they kick a winning score (Walker) or get their hands in the ball (O'Brien), but you never know with Melbourne and this competition is close. 

With Hunt out of the side, I assume we'll look to release Bowey as the runner off half back and bring in Hibbo to play closer to defensive goal. Will Hunt's injury mean we have to shelve some defensive tweaks we were considering or does it have the opposite effect and force us to rejig our set up a bit as described above?

And what of our forward half? With McDonald's injury, does that ruin any tricks we had up our sleeves there? Conversely, does it enable Weideman to get game time just in case McDonald or Brown pick up injuries during the finals campaign?

I'm not expecting bigtweaks, but I reckon we tried to move the ball faster against the Eagles and were aggressive into the corridor. With better kickers back there now, will that enable us to try to attack the corridor more?

If MCG finals were guaranteed, this would be the perfect week to try some things that are MCG specific, but it's sounding increasingly unlikely finals will be played there. It's all well and good for the other finalists whose home ground is not the MCG, but it seems our advantage will be out the window.

Edited August 12, 2021 by A F

[Engorged Onion 10,223]

A good article this week on how Jake Lever demonstrably fits in and guides our game plan 

[deanox 9,989]

1 hour ago, Engorged Onion said:

A good article this week on how Jake Lever demonstrably fits in and guides our game plan 

Yeah we paid 2 first round picks, but add them all in with the picks we got back (including Petty), I don't think the equivalent of a top 5 pick was overs for an exposed form, 21 year old who was almost guaranteed to play for 10 more years in your best 22.

[Axis of Bob 11,853]

1 hour ago, deanox said:

Yeah we paid 2 first round picks, but add them all in with the picks we got back (including Petty), I don't think the equivalent of a top 5 pick was overs for an exposed form, 21 year old who was almost guaranteed to play for 10 more years in your best 22.

In the end it was Lever, Petty and Matthew Parker for Lochie O'Brien, Liam Stocker and Robbie Young. Obviously that was after further trades, with none of those players ending up at Adelaide.

More accurately, it was Lever, pick 35 and pick 47 (future) for pick 10, pick 19 (future) and pick 67 (future).

[whatwhat say what 22,949]

29 minutes ago, Axis of Bob said:

In the end it was Lever, Petty and Matthew Parker for Lochie O'Brien, Liam Stocker and Robbie Young. Obviously that was after further trades, with none of those players ending up at Adelaide.

More accurately, it was Lever, pick 35 and pick 47 (future) for pick 10, pick 19 (future) and pick 67 (future).

it equates to lever being 'valued' at pick 8

for that, i'd say lever is an absolute bargain for what he brings to our side; easy to forget he was robbed of a year as a result of the acl injury and is still only 25 years old

i fully expect him to be our next captain

[Ted Lasso 19,549]

The Tactics of Geelong this weekend will be really interesting because they'd know that Tom Stewart being out is going to present a problem, and they'd also know Max and Jacko are going to dominate them as they basically always do in the ruck and around the ground, i reckon they'll try and turn it into an in tight arm wrestle and make it really hard for both teams to score. 

it'll be really interesting to see how Chris Scott, imo one of the best game day coaches in a long time, approaches cracking our defense with some really important players missing from their side 

[deanox 9,989]

41 minutes ago, whatwhat say what said:

it equates to lever being 'valued' at pick 8

for that, i'd say lever is an absolute bargain for what he brings to our side; easy to forget he was robbed of a year as a result of the acl injury and is still only 25 years old

i fully expect him to be our next captain

Pick 8 for Lever? What a steal. We had to pay pick 6 for May for was 5 or 6 years older.

I still don't understand the fuss!

[D4Life 2,541]

4 hours ago, Engorged Onion said:

A good article this week on how Jake Lever demonstrably fits in and guides our game plan 

Thanks for the article!

Highlights the importance of Lever and  Geelong losing Stewart will have a big impact.

All cards seem to be falling for the Demons: Cats lose Stewart

Lions Hipwood

Dogs Bruce & others

Port getting players back but struggle to beat Top 4 teams (makes Dogs a huge game)

Swans out of 4 makes it tough for them

Likely Giants/Bombers playing mini finals for 8-10 weeks will hurt them.

Demons lost Tomlinson early in season, Petty has grown into the role and shown rapid improvement, and losing Hunt hurts as he was starting to look like the Hunt of old (pre knockout) with heaps of run, but I think Rivers can pick up the slack. If we can beat the Cats we get choice of venue and shouldn’t have to cop a Port or Lions home crowd/ground/umpire bias, so we are terrifically placed to have a real crack!!

[FritschyBusiness 1,478]

5 hours ago, Engorged Onion said:

A good article this week on how Jake Lever demonstrably fits in and guides our game plan 

Thanks for the article. I know there was always a knock on his one on one defending which I didn't think he was that bad at this year, this article points out he has only lost 29% of one on ones this year. 

[FritschyBusiness 1,478]

53 minutes ago, D4Life said:

 

Port getting players back but struggle to beat Top 4 teams (makes Dogs a huge game)

 

I think they struggled to beat the Top 4 teams because of those players (Rozee, Butters and Grey) being out
 

Watch them win by 5-6 goals tonight, easy

[Cheap Seats 3,310]

3 hours ago, FritschyBusiness said:

I think they struggled to beat the Top 4 teams because of those players (Rozee, Butters and Grey) being out
 

Watch them win by 5-6 goals tonight, easy

Agree.

Dogs are also lacking balance up forward

[Engorged Onion 10,223]

Can someone please educate me on the notion of the 'defensive wing'

What is it explicitly? Is it the wing that we don't like going to?

Is it defensive, because it's Angus's? Or is it defensive because it's not Ed's? (so is it about the individual playing there?)

Or is it defensive because we prefer to kick to the left from a behind been scored? (Nominally Ed's wing).

Edited August 24, 2021 by Engorged Onion

[Wrecker46 3,020]

9 minutes ago, Engorged Onion said:

Can someone please educate me on the notion of the 'defensive wing'

What is it explicitly? Is it the wing that we don't like going to?

Is it defensive, because it's Angus's? Or is it defensive because it's not Ed's? (so is it about the individual playing there?)

Or is it defensive because we prefer to kick to the left from a behind been scored? (Nominally Ed's wing).

I've read we play Langdon on the same side every quarter. The opposite side to the bench because he never comes off so I don't think it is a side thing.

My understanding is the defensive wing is more of a positional role where they block spots you don't want the opposition kicking to and run back to defend and give extra numbers in defence. 

[Wrecker46 3,020]

Game plan for the finals: get out of Oliver's way.

[Engorged Onion 10,223]

2 minutes ago, Wrecker46 said:

I've read we play Langdon on the same side every quarter. The opposite side to the bench because he never comes off so I don't think it is a side thing.

My understanding is the defensive wing is more of a positional role where they block spots you don't want the opposition kicking to and run back to defend and give extra numbers in defence. 

Yep, totally understand the role, more about how it always falls to being Gus's side. Is it about Gus...or is it about something else about our system?

[deelusions from afar 1,861]

5 minutes ago, Engorged Onion said:

Yep, totally understand the role, more about how it always falls to being Gus's side. Is it about Gus...or is it about something else about our system?

Isn't it about you kick to his side when moving the ball slowly as if there's a turnover there's more congestion so it's harder for the opposition to transition the ball forward.

On the other side (the fat side) it's more open which allows Langdon to use his speed to create an option for the switch?

[Engorged Onion 10,223]

In looking away from our shores at distant leagues and thus different approaches, here is an article worth reading.

It summarises (for those that care or are even aware about club legend OGS's sacking from Man Utd) and what the FD have done next, in obtaining a specific person, with specific skills sets and philosophy in what works for high performance.

Geez I'd love some discussion in AFL at this forensic level.

Anyway, what stood out for me in reading it (and linking it to Goodwin).

"But with Tuchel and Rangnick, and Guardiola and Jürgen Klopp for that matter, the most notable quality is their restless intelligence, the obsession with detail, with football as a play of shapes and numbers and ideas.

This is how you win at this game now. The fitness and technical quality of elite players is so well-matched that this has become a game of details, a cerebral as much as a physical battle. With this in mind Solskjær’s departure has spared us what would have been a very obvious contrast."

I am firmly in the camp of Goodwins intelligence, and subtle strategic curiosity and credentials, and have been since his first year as coach. This was evidenced by Goodwin's willingness to be 'experimental', to test out in-game ways of being different with strategy to win matches.

Roos, Clarkson, Beveridge and Hardwick all have shown this attribute as well (or at least, more clearly on display than other coaches).

There is a comment around Tuchel's press conferences also. I for one hope Goodwin, with premiership success and his standing a good/great coach validated, also allows him to be more authentic with his strategic acumen and put it on display in press conferences going forward.

Have a good week everyone!

 

[leave it to deever 17,521]

Not the appropriate thread and apologies if it's been dealt with.

I watched the replay of the last h and a game against cats aka one of the best comebacks.

In that last minute Gus was pinged for a deliberate or " insufficient intent" for a kick that slipped off his foot. Obviously given the amount of time left and the score nothing could have been less true. That umpire should be called out as not qualified to arbitrate any games. There are howlers we all make but that was the worst call ever and could have so easily cost us top spot.