Finals Week 3

[george_on_the_outer 7,613]

Still no Premierships for FIGJAM as player or coach!  

Should have stayed at the Bears, when he would have had 3 and probably 4 if he played in their losing GF side.

 

[Sir Why You Little 37,052]

I just hope I see MFC players give 2nd, 3rd, and 4th efforts at a contest and learn to tackle properly, the way that GW$ did yesterday. Regardless of their concessions, they are coached the right way to play September

Take note Goodwin 

[Mr Steve 3,820]

15 hours ago, sue said:

And to top it off, Scully moved to Hawthorn....

And that is the best part. I want to believe that it was Stynes finger that touched that last kick at goal. 

[Macca 17,013]

1 hour ago, McQueen said:

A link to an exercise I found worthwhile doing.

Toggle through the years beginning in 2011 - the Giants first draft where they admittedly were handed a swathe of first round draft picks - and then follow through until the 2018 draft and you’ll come to the realisation that a lot of those high picks have moved on to other clubs or have been broken with injury (Patton) or left the game (Boyd).

Whilst it irks me to even acknowledge this, the Giants have basically made the most value out of their trades which of course have usually resulted in more high draft picks that’s left them at the pointy end of the National draft again and again.

I wonder how all of Treloar, Adams and Hoskins-Elliott (ex-GWS top 10 picks) we’re feeling yesterday as they were running around in Pies jumpers?

GWS draft history

Their success is based purely on the numbers game.  Half of all first round draft picks are busts therefore the other half aren't busts.

And the formula works better from a probability point of view if a club has multiple first round draft picks out of the top 10 picks in the same year.

It doesn't work the same way if a club only gets 1 pick in any given year.  That 1 pick is therefore better off being traded for.

GWS just simply played the percentages which was quite fool-proof.  As long as the club is well run of course.  The GCS hasn't worked in the same way but I'd argue the GCS aren't well run.

By the way,  I cannot stand the Giants and I see them as a Frankenstein team.  No interest.  None.

I hope Richmond smash them.

[Macca 17,013]

34 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

I just hope I see MFC players give 2nd, 3rd, and 4th efforts at a contest and learn to tackle properly, the way that GW$ did yesterday. Regardless of their concessions, they are coached the right way to play September

We lack talent at Melbourne ... the Giants on the other hand have loads of talent.

It has nothing to do with the coaching.  Goodwin may well be a better coach than Cameron for all we know.

What is true is that the Giants have loads more talent than what we have.  Swap coaching roles and you'll see the same results.

Our issue has always been with how we recruit talent.  We haven't had a great list since the Smith days.  That's why we don't win.

[dees189227 12,394]

Gee if you want an assistant coaching job get one under clarko. So may of his assistants have gone on to win flags, now Leon Cameron gets his chance. 

[Sir Why You Little 37,052]

Just now, Macca said:

We lack talent at Melbourne ... the Giants on the other hand have loads of talent.

It has nothing to do with the coaching.  Goodwin may well be a better coach than Cameron for all we know.

What is true is that the Giants have loads more talent than what we have.  Swap coaching roles and you'll see the same results.

Our issue has always been with how we recruit talent.  We haven't had a great list since the Smith days.  That's why we don't win.

Pathetic isn’t it. The Club has been so badly run. From the Moment Richmond moved into the ‘G, we have been on the back foot retreating. 

That doesn’t excuse one arm tackling and players just jogging around in 2019. 

Goodwin and the List are under the Microscope now. The Media will see to that. Bring it on

[Diamond_Jim 12,598]

24 minutes ago, Macca said:

We lack talent at Melbourne ... the Giants on the other hand have loads of talent.

It has nothing to do with the coaching.  Goodwin may well be a better coach than Cameron for all we know.

What is true is that the Giants have loads more talent than what we have.  Swap coaching roles and you'll see the same results.

Our issue has always been with how we recruit talent.  We haven't had a great list since the Smith days.  That's why we don't win.

yep and our answer is to recruit Tomlinson who was hardly sighted yesterday.

A good coach plays to his strengths....not sure Goodwin knows how to do that.

Anyway not holding out much hope for next year unless we can get that connection and brand working.

Good to see Storm bounce back yesterday but to miss six shots for extra points was unbelievable. Bit like the Wallabies in the first half against Fiji.

On a related note if you want to see a coach go "nuts" in the box watch Craig Bellamy. Even when they were 22-0 he was still on edge to say the least.

Edited September 22, 2019 by Diamond_Jim

[Macca 17,013]

1 hour ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Pathetic isn’t it. The Club has been so badly run. From the Moment Richmond moved into the ‘G, we have been on the back foot retreating. 

That doesn’t excuse one arm tackling and players just jogging around in 2019. 

Goodwin and the List are under the Microscope now. The Media will see to that. Bring it on

I've had a good look at our list and we're not good enough Wyl.  We're a benchmark 78 horse trying to win a Group 1 at WFA.

We need to bring in 8 -10 top players over the next 4 -5 years.  And it can be done.  We need to get aggressive with free agency too.  Play the long game. 

My aim would be to have a list capable of contesting for the flag on a regular basis.  Not just a list capable of playing finals.  There's no ambition in that type of thinking

I've come across people in my time who told me that Smith's aim was to have an excess of talent.  Year after year after year.

But it's not living in the past ... Smith thought like a modern day coach.  He just wanted the best list to work with.  And more often than not,  he got what he wanted.  Until the zones came in.  Barassi thought the same way as do a lot of successful coaches.

Coaches can fall into the trap of too much methodology,  systems or game plans.  What they really need is lots of pure talent.

Edited September 22, 2019 by Macca

[Sir Why You Little 37,052]

4 minutes ago, Macca said:

I've had a good look at our list and we're not good enough Wyl.  We're a benchmark 78 horse trying to win a a Group 1

We need to bring in 8 -10 top players over the next 4 -5 years.  And it can be done.  We need to get aggressive with free agency too.  Play the long game. 

My aim would be to have a list capable of contesting for the flag on a regular basis.  Not just a list capable of playing finals.  There's no ambition in that type of thinking

I've come across people in my time who told me that Smith's aim was to have an excess of talent.  Year after year after year.

But it's not living in the past ... Smith thought like a modern day coach.  He just wanted the best list to work with.  And more often than not,  he got what he wanted.  Until the zones came in.  Barassi thought the same way as do a lot of successful coaches.

Coaches can fall into the trap of too much methodology,  systems or game plans.  What they really need is lots of pure talent.

Not disagreeing, but what you are saying should have been happening long ago. We have wasted so many opportunities 

But now the Club will be under Scrutiny which I think it has dodged for years

[Macca 17,013]

1 hour ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Not disagreeing, but what you are saying should have been happening long ago. We have wasted so many opportunities 

But now the Club will be under Scrutiny which I think it has dodged for years

See I wouldn't bother about the scrutiny as a motivating force.  What we need to see are people who know what they're doing with a workable,  successful plan.  Roos showed us the way as did RDB back in the 80's.  But on both occasions we were too far back. 

Putting the heat on coaches like DB,  Neeld,  Goodwin and the like won't necessarily make those coaches perform better.  In fact,  the opposite can often happen where everything just disintegrates because of outside forces.  And that's what we've witnessed.  Our issues have to do with talent levels and always will be.  Even with a great list major problems are just around the corner.  As Smith found out.

Nothing works like pure talent ... and clubs usually have excellent admin & coaching levels in order to get that pure talent.  One doesn't work without the other. 

We need to recruit better.  A seismic shift needs to occur.  And if we ever by chance get to a point where we have an excess of talent,  that's a great problem to have.

Go through the list and do an honest appraisal of talent levels.  With no bias whatsoever.  I've done it and we are way short on pure talent. Even our good players have glaring weaknesses.

If you think it's just Goodwin,  you're wrong.  But any coach needs to be involved with creating a great list.  Or have a great list created for him.  And that is not something that has been seen for decades.

Edited September 22, 2019 by Macca

[nosoupforme 3,085]

Oh! Spare me,

They seem to find a way to be beaten with  Buckley at the reins Wce now GWS.

At the Fish and chip shop in Collingwood, the owner George said that the Magpies will win and we will be busy as Hell for the weekend.  

Well George you should have bought the shop in Richmond as they are doing a roaring trade as we speak.

 

[SFebes 4,884]

We are so lucky to not have that thug Jeremy Cameron playing for us.

[Sir Why You Little 37,052]

48 minutes ago, Macca said:

See I wouldn't bother about the scrutiny as a motivating force.  What we need to see are people who know what they're doing with a workable,  successful plan.  Roos showed us the way as did RDB back in the 80's.  But on both occasions we were too far back. 

Putting the heat on coaches like DB,  Neeld,  Goodwin and the like won't necessarily make those coaches perform better.  In fact,  the opposite can often often happen where everything just disintegrates because of outside forces.  And that's what we've witnessed.  Our issues have to do with talent levels and always will be.  Even with a great list major problems are just around the corner.  As Smith found out.

Nothing works like pure talent ... and clubs usually have excellent admin & coaching levels in order to get that pure talent.  One doesn't work without the other. 

We need to recruit better.  A seismic shift needs to occur.  And if we ever by chance get to a point where we have an excess of talent,  that's a great problem to have.

Go through the list and do an honest appraisal of talent levels.  With no bias whatsoever.  I've done it and we are way short on pure talent. Even our good players have glaring weaknesses.

If you think it's just Goodwin,  you're wrong.  But any coach needs to be involved with creating a great list.  Or have a great list created for him.  And that is not something that has been seen for decades.

I don’t just blame Goodwin at all. But his dismissive attitude towards last years Preliminary Final belting worries me a lot. 

A dismissive attitude is the last thing the MFC needs. We have no right to such arrogance. 

We have about 5-6 top line players (that includes the ones I think will make it) I am hoping a few others have the attitude to become great  

I keep saying it, but for me Attitude is the first Criteria I want to see. 

Yesterday GW$ were missing 4-5 top liners, but those who covered for them had the absolute right attitude “We will not get beaten”

skills can be learnt with the right training. Attitude is a DNA Trait

we have had so many opportunities to improve, without doing it. 

Fitness levels this year were appalling. For the entire season, and as share holders we are expected to be patient. 

I am glad Burgess is now employed. It will all be on the track in a couple of months. Players have to push through pain barriers like never before. 

You have to win Preliminary Finals to Qualify

[Macca 17,013]

26 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

I don’t just blame Goodwin at all. But his dismissive attitude towards last years Preliminary Final belting worries me a lot. 

A dismissive attitude is the last thing the MFC needs. We have no right to such arrogance. 

We have about 5-6 top line players (that includes the ones I think will make it) I am hoping a few others have the attitude to become great  

I keep saying it, but for me Attitude is the first Criteria I want to see. 

Yesterday GW$ were missing 4-5 top liners, but those who covered for them had the absolute right attitude “We will not get beaten”

skills can be learnt with the right training. Attitude is a DNA Trait

we have had so many opportunities to improve, without doing it. 

Fitness levels this year were appalling. For the entire season, and as share holders we are expected to be patient. 

I am glad Burgess is now employed. It will all be on the track in a couple of months. Players have to push through pain barriers like never before. 

You have to win Preliminary Finals to Qualify

If it was about attitude we would have all been champion foitballers Wyl

And you do just blame Goodwin.  All the time.  In fact,  you never shut up about him.  You rarely,  if ever,  talk about the actual talent levels of the players.  You bang on about 'Attitude' way too much.

No amount of great attitude was ever going to turn Toumpas,  Blease,  Morton,  Cook,  Tapscott,  Strauss,  Maric,  Gysberts and hundreds of others into good footballers.  Way too many failures for it to be simply about attitude.

They all had the same thing in common ... they couldn't play and we recruited them. So the answer is to move them on and recruit real talent. 

But we just prefer the lottery (the draft) ... and we just keep coming back for more as if it's all going to turn around.  Draft = Fools Gold.

Meanwhile,  we're a cellar dweller without any real ambition.  We don't know how to be a power club.  It's not about attitude,  it's about being realistic and smart.  We are quite determined but in the wrong way.

You've got to have a good plan organised by smart people with good governance.

Edited September 22, 2019 by Macca

[Sir Why You Little 37,052]

10 minutes ago, Macca said:

If it was about attitude we would have all been champion foitballers Wyl

And you do just blame Goodwin.  All the time.  In fact,  you never shut up about him.  You rarely,  if ever,  talk about the actual talent levels of the players.  You bang on about 'Attitude' way too much.

No amount of great attitude was ever going to turn Toumpas,  Blease,  Morton,  Cook,  Tapscott,  Strauss,  Maric,  Gysberts and hundreds of others into good footballers.  Way too many failures for it to be simply about attitude.

They all had the same thing in common ... they couldn't play and we recruited them. So the answer is to move them on and recruit real talent. 

But we just prefer the lottery (the draft) ... and we just keep coming back for more as if it's all going to turn around.  Draft = Fools Gold.

Meanwhile,  we're a cellar dweller without any real ambition.  We don't know how to be a power club.  It's not about attitude,  it's about being realistic and smart.  We are quite determined but in the wrong way.

You've got to have a good plan organised by smart people with good governance.

None of those players you mentioned above had the right attitude. That is exactly what I am saying

Shocking recruitment is all that was. 

YOU underestimate Attitude Macca, it is the back bone. Talent and skills come after attitude 

[Macca 17,013]

6 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

None of those players you mentioned above had the right attitude. That is exactly what I am saying

Shocking recruitment is all that was. 

YOU underestimate Attitude Macca, it is the back bone. Talent and skills come after attitude 

There is no getting through to you is there?

They were recruited as kids ... high school age.  Entering a brutal man's world at that age.

Half of them fail for good reason.  They are not equipped and there is no way of measuring whether they are equipped or not at that age  Unless you want to believe the spin doctors & the bs artists.

You only know what you've been told. I doubt that you'll ever get it.  Start thinking for yourself if you can. 

I would recruit ready made stars with great attitude and great skills. 

You want to take your chances in a lottery called the draft.  You are destined to lose and I can't really lose.  My way is a much safer route.  You prefer high risk outcomes.

Whilst you prefer to speculate I prefer the real deal.  And I said the same thing to you and numerous others 8 years ago.

Still don't want to listen do you?

But the thinking is shifting Wyl ... people are getting tired of the disappointments.  They want to win.

[old55 23,625]

3 hours ago, Macca said:

 

GWS just simply played the percentages which was quite fool-proof.  As long as the club is well run of course.  The GCS hasn't worked in the same way but I'd argue the GCS aren't well run.

 

GWS in the GF and Gold Coast on the bottom - yeah it's foolproof.

I admire what they've created at GWS and I am firmly on them this week.

It's the battle of the two best club songs.

[Macca 17,013]

1 minute ago, Fifty-5 said:

GWS in the GF and Gold Coast on the bottom - yeah it's foolproof.

I admire what they've created at GWS and I am firmly on them this week.

It's the battle of the two best club songs.

GCS is a holiday camp and the club is a company store that is poorly run

As much as I can't even identify with the Giants they do make great decisions and they do understand the draft. 

They were smart enough to know that there are busts coming so they traded the also-rans to those clubs who wanted the hand-me-downs.  Double dipped and then triple dipped.

Other clubs like Hawthorn,  Collingwood,  Richmond & Geelong trade for real talent.  And they play finals.

So the difference between the GCS & GWS is stark even though they both started off at the same sort of base.  It is not one size fits all.  Clubs still have to make sensible decisions

Our club works under the same salary cap and recruiting conditions as the other clubs yet we continually fail.  The club doesn't knows how to be successful 55.

[Diamond_Jim 12,598]

will be interesting to see how many GWS members registered for the ballot (remember that last year) for GF tickets. Had forgotten about that little ticketek/AFL earner. (At least it was Cats and Magpie fans who donated this year).

The feral Tiger supporters are already eyeing off the GWS ticket allocation

[Macca 17,013]

58 minutes ago, Diamond_Jim said:

will be interesting to see how many GWS members registered for the ballot (remember that last year) for GF tickets. Had forgotten about that little ticketek/AFL earner. (At least it was Cats and Magpie fans who donated this year).

The feral Tiger supporters are already eyeing off the GWS ticket allocation

Whatever the number might be it could be assumed that the number is not correct.  Spin will be applied as image is all-important.  This is the AFL we're talking about.

My guess is that there will be a number of tickets available but those tickets will be conveniently relocated in a number of different directions. 

There won't be a general announcement that GWS members have only taken up a small amount of their GF ticket allication.  I doubt it anyway.  Do they have any real supporters?  Does fake piped cheering count?  If there was fake piped booing it might sound more authentic.

I never thought I'd ever be cheering for the ferals but they are at least a proper footy team.  GWS are a broadcast rights team.  No soul.  Just an entity that I will probably never recognise.

[Demonsone 2,042]

For all the top facilities/ training base & revenues/membership the Pies have won 1 flag in 20 years...

Premierships are so hard to win!

[Diamond_Jim 12,598]

3 hours ago, Macca said:

Whatever the number might be it could be assumed that the number is not correct.  Spin will be applied as image is all-important.  This is the AFL we're talking about.

My guess is that there will be a number of tickets available but those tickets will be conveniently relocated in a number of different directions. 

There won't be a general announcement that GWS members have only taken up a small amount of their GF ticket allication.  I doubt it anyway.  Do they have any real supporters?  Does fake piped cheering count?  If there was fake piped booing it might sound more authentic.

I never thought I'd ever be cheering for the ferals but they are at least a proper footy team.  GWS are a broadcast rights team.  No soul.  Just an entity that I will probably never recognise.

They have about thirty thousand listed members.  How many would be sponsor comps I am not sure. The pre registration may have caught a lot of the three game members out. If that requirement was not there you could expect the full entitlement to be taken up. 

There were suggestions in the past that some of the smart money had seen Gws membership as a good way to arbitrage gf tickets 

[old55 23,625]

2 hours ago, Macca said:

GCS is a holiday camp and the club is a company store that is poorly run

As much as I can't even identify with the Giants they do make great decisions and they do understand the draft. 

They were smart enough to know that there are busts coming so they traded the also-rans to those clubs who wanted the hand-me-downs.  Double dipped and then triple dipped.

Other clubs like Hawthorn,  Collingwood,  Richmond & Geelong trade for real talent.  And they play finals.

So the difference between the GCS & GWS is stark even though they both started off at the same sort of base.  It is not one size fits all.  Clubs still have to make sensible decisions

Our club works under the same salary cap and recruiting conditions as the other clubs yet we continually fail.  The club doesn't knows how to be successful 55.

I could equally argue that the Gold Coast path is the norm - there's a million ways to fail and very few to succeed.  The truth is somewhere in the middle and Gold Coast have done poorly while GWS have excelled.

People bleat about the draft concessions that the start-ups had and how they've disadvantaged other clubs. 

• The bottom 4 teams in 2010 - the year GC had their draft concessions were Brisbane, Essendon, Richmond, West Coast (16th)
• The bottom 5 teams in 2011 - the year GWS had their draft concessions were Melbourne, Adelaide, Brisbane, Port, Gold Coast (17th)

All these teams have subsequently played finals and 2 of them have won flags.

The are great football people at GWS who have given blood for the cause like Alan McConnell the last coach of Fitzroy.  He has been at GWS since day dot, try telling him he doesn't deserve some success.

[Redleg 40,979]

55 minutes ago, Demonsone said:

For all the top facilities/ training base & revenues/membership the Pies have won 1 flag in 20 years...

Premierships are so hard to win!

They are hard to get.

Pies have won 2 flags in the last 60 years and 1 in the last 28.

We of course have none in the last 55 years.