Jump to content


Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)

On one hand, you have pub talk (who else but Yobbo) and PhD speak (Dermie try-hard) and Evangelical talk (who else but Monsignor Whately) where the consensus reached is that B&Fs are the real indication because only the inside know about covert roles etc...

On the other hand, they are absolutely corrupt and manipulated by other biases.  Player contracts that have an incentive clause in relation to B&F position for instance.  The other one is trying to flick off a player.  Now that we know the club think that Frost played 2019 out-of-his-skin, and Clarko will be fooled by this, it will be interesting to see where "supreme effort" and courage (with and without ball in hand) gets him in this year's B&F.  He is top 5 this year without one shadow of a doubt.  Something tells me, Goody and co. will make sure that he finishes in the teens.

As Keating once said, "in the race of life, always back self-interest".

 

pTGR

Edited by TGR
Spelling
  • Haha 2
  • Shocked 1

Posted

I find it hard to believe that the coaching group would discard their weekly votes on our best players to sanction a player, surely the higher a player ends up would guarantee you a better trade value?????????????

Posted (edited)

The system advantages players that have played every game as the final count is the sum of votes from each game with no prorata for # of games played.

For mine Frost is not top 5 and probably not top 10.  Those ahead of him would be (in no particular order) Petracca, Harmes, Oliver, Gawn, Salem, Viney, Fritsch, even Hore perhaps... 

Many things go into the votes that we as fans can't see eg playing to the game plan, 'team first'/unselfish play, attitude, decision making under pressure, following team rules etc.  I have no idea how Frost scores on any of these.  But if he isn't in the top 10, I don't think it means there is 'a fix'. 

And I very much doubt BnF position influences trade decisions.  After all, Hawks traded out Mitchell and Lewis the year they came 1st and 2nd in their BnF.

Freo traded out their BnF winner last year...

Edited by Lucifer's Hero
Posted

Not saying B&F influences trade decisions.  Just implying that clubs experience more difficulty trading a Howe or Kent or Frost or Watts or Dunn if they finish high in the B&F.

 

 

Posted
30 minutes ago, daisycutter said:

another graduate from the university of the bleeding obvious

That’s where you Simpletons get your qualifications.

You take literature from the UBO away, we are only left with 5% of thought provocation and 3% of incoherent dribble.


Posted
1 hour ago, Lord Nev said:

The Bluey is happening before the trade period. Why would the club seemingly decrease his trade value by pushing him down the order of value to us?

 

Read the thread.  It’s nit about value.  It’s about marketing and supporter relations.

  • Haha 1
Posted
2 minutes ago, TGR said:

Read the thread.  It’s nit about value.  It’s about marketing and supporter relations.

 

2 hours ago, TGR said:

 Player contracts that have an incentive clause in relation to B&F position for instance.  The other one is trying to flick off a player.

 

Posted

The BnF will reflect how well the coaching group think a player has played his role and followed the game plan.  Sure brilliance will get votes, but they won't give full votes to players who ignore team plan/rules no matter what the outcome. 

I expect Frost will poll a bit lower than many supporters will expect. Yes he is exciting, he breaks lines, he attacks, and he had great highlights in a solid year. But his no.1 role is being part of a defensive 6, and I think when it comes to Frost, that often comes second. Leaving his man at the wrong time, spoiling team mates, poor positioning during the i50, means that at times he struggled as a defender.  Many of his highlights came after he had messed up. Many highlights end in him messing up (e.g. running too far snuffed confusing the timing of our forwards).

I'm not saying I want him gone, but I understand why he may be tradable.

  • Like 2
Posted
On 9/13/2019 at 3:32 PM, Lord Nev said:

 

 

I hope you are not a prosecution barrister.  That serviette you're holding aint the Shroud of Turin.

Let me be clear.  When clubs contentiously get rid of a player it is in the club's best interest to 'lower' them on the B&F list.

 

This has nothing at all to do with the fruitless task "tricking" other clubs.  This is about marketing and massaging a message to members to minimise any potential fallout.

Posted

Considering Nathan Jones got 4th last year I feel the "Blueys" abit of a joke.

 

  • Like 2
Posted
1 minute ago, Fork 'em said:

Considering Nathan Jones got 4th last year I feel the "Blueys" abit of a joke.

 

I was staggered in 2016 when Gawn finished 3rd after a dominant AA year. Somehow Viney won the award that year.  Rob Flower won our B&F once and we were absolutely horrible for pretty much all of his career. I'd not be in the least surprised to see some "strange" results this year as well.

  • Like 2
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, TGR said:

I hope you are not a prosecution barrister.  That serviette you're holding aint the Shroud of Turin.

Let me be clear.  When clubs contentiously get rid of a player it is in the club's best interest to 'lower' them on the B&F list.

This has nothing at all to do with the fruitless task "tricking" other clubs.  This is about marketing and massaging a message to members to minimise any potential fallout.

So, can you then explain the following:

Beams finishing 2nd in the Lions BnF before being traded to Collingwood.

Neale Freo BnF winner before being traded.

Ablett won the Suns BnF then traded.

That's just a few off the top of my head, but already it seems the evidence doesn't support your assertion.

Case closed.

Edited by Lord Nev
  • Like 4

Posted
1 hour ago, TGR said:

I hope you are not a prosecution barrister.  That serviette you're holding aint the Shroud of Turin.

Let me be clear.  When clubs contentiously get rid of a player it is in the club's best interest to 'lower' them on the B&F list.

 

This has nothing at all to do with the fruitless task "tricking" other clubs.  This is about marketing and massaging a message to members to minimise any potential fallout.

You're wrong. Have a lie down.

  • Like 3
Posted (edited)

We've got two options here:

1) the entire AFL industry is manipulating best and fairest results for the purposes of marketing and supporter management, at the potential detriment of performance bonus payments to players, and not a single person involved in the industry has ever hinted at blowing the whistle. 

Or

2) Coaches that cast votes are a) more knowledgeable of the player role and KPI than the average player and b) influenced by conscious/unconscious bias RE player performance, which also is the basis for making decisions on list management and players futures; so it isn't a surprise to see correlations or patterns in vote results and player movements. 

 

I'm going to go with option 2 on this occasion.

Edited by deanox
  • Like 3
Posted
21 hours ago, deanox said:

We've got two options here:

1) the entire AFL industry is manipulating best and fairest results for the purposes of marketing and supporter management, at the potential detriment of performance bonus payments to players, and not a single person involved in the industry has ever hinted at blowing the whistle. 

Or

2) Coaches that cast votes are a) more knowledgeable of the player role and KPI than the average player and b) influenced by conscious/unconscious bias RE player performance, which also is the basis for making decisions on list management and players futures; so it isn't a surprise to see correlations or patterns in vote results and player movements. 

 

I'm going to go with option 2 on this occasion.

Someone has blown the whistle.  Refer to Western Bulldogs saga 1-2 decades ago.

 

Option 2?

This is a coach that refused to review the 2018 prelim.  This is a coach that said 'top 4 no longer matters'.  This is a coach that has gone short-term with many decisions (Lever for 2 first rounders in a super draft, Jordie Lewis game-time, passing on the King twin and the list goes on).  This is a coach that played Lewis and Jones on the wings at the G in a big game.

 

His short-termism and decision making quality will only worsen as he coaches for his life in 2020.

  • Like 1

Posted (edited)
23 hours ago, TGR said:

Someone has blown the whistle.  Refer to Western Bulldogs saga 1-2 decades ago.

 

Option 2?

This is a coach that refused to review the 2018 prelim.  This is a coach that said 'top 4 no longer matters'.  This is a coach that has gone short-term with many decisions (Lever for 2 first rounders in a super draft, Jordie Lewis game-time, passing on the King twin and the list goes on).  This is a coach that played Lewis and Jones on the wings at the G in a big game.

 

His short-termism and decision making quality will only worsen as he coaches for his life in 2020.

So 2 decades ago one person blew the whistle? Given how performance based AFL contracts are, manipulating such results for the sake of marketing opens a very large can of worms.

Secondly, from your cherry picking attack on Goodwin, it's clear you're either result led by sensationalist media or deliberately missrepresenting the situation to suit your line of arguement.

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/grand-final-was-the-real-lesson-for-the-demons-goodwin-20190307-p512hl.html

"The Demons coach did not spend long dwelling on the preliminary final blowout..." (not "did not review")

"The Demons did not do a regular play-by-play review of the game with their players because it was futile when they had played so far outside the way they know they should play, and outside the way they had been playing." (This doesn't imply the coaches didn't review it, and it didn't imply they still didn't review the overall game with the players, they just didn't hammer ever little mistake at the end of a long season)

“I tried to parcel our finals up into three. We had two really great experiences and one poor one. I certainly didn’t dwell too much on the way we played because it was nothing like the way the Melbourne team plays. But you do reflect on the things in our program we keep addressing and learning from,” he said." (Again, this implies they reviewed and took learnings from the game, they just didn't hammer the players about little [censored] on an overall horrible day)

 

If you want to maintain your position of conspiracy theories you at least need to substantiate it. The onus of proof is on you. 

 

Edit: for clarity, you're the one who tried to use your opinion of Goodwin to leverage the conspiracy theory of manipulating bnf results. My post talked about coaches and coaching groups in general, and applies across the board to all clubs. Just because you don't like Goodwin, doesn't mean all coaching groups manipulate bnf results. 

Edited by deanox
Posted
On 9/13/2019 at 12:52 PM, TGR said:

On one hand, you have pub talk (who else but Yobbo) and PhD speak (Dermie try-hard) and Evangelical talk (who else but Monsignor Whately) where the consensus reached is that B&Fs are the real indication because only the inside know about covert roles etc...

On the other hand, they are absolutely corrupt and manipulated by other biases.  Player contracts that have an incentive clause in relation to B&F position for instance.  The other one is trying to flick off a player.  Now that we know the club think that Frost played 2019 out-of-his-skin, and Clarko will be fooled by this, it will be interesting to see where "supreme effort" and courage (with and without ball in hand) gets him in this year's B&F.  He is top 5 this year without one shadow of a doubt.  Something tells me, Goody and co. will make sure that he finishes in the teens.

As Keating once said, "in the race of life, always back self-interest".

 

pTGR

If you honestly believe that ...you are stating that the club you support is both dishonest & morally corrupt...god help us if we don’t have a good 2020...I can’t even begin to think of the the vitriol that will be posted ?

  • Shocked 1

Posted
6 hours ago, deanox said:

 

Edit: for clarity, you're the one who tried to use your opinion of Goodwin to leverage the conspiracy theory of manipulating bnf results. My post talked about coaches and coaching groups in general, and applies across the board to all clubs. Just because you don't like Goodwin, doesn't mean all coaching groups manipulate bnf results. 

You guys live in la-la land.

Do you really think that Goodwin, who wanted twiggy Lever for the price of $850 k per year, and 2 draft picks in a super-draft, is going to judge him any way but easy in relation to B&F voting?  Conversely, do you think Goody, who is trying to off-load Frost, is going to go judge him any way but harshly?

Votes per game, I will bet all my good stuff that Goody will give it to Lever.

 

Yet you have a real objective bonefide expert in Rooey, who stated the bleeding obvious.  Frost was our best defender in 2019 bar none.  Frost had 'supreme effort' and he would prefer to play on Lever and May.

 

Human nature.  Roosy wouldn't have Howe in Collingwood's leadership group at the moment....or indeed Dunn.

 

B&F's are absolutely subject to bias, and are more corrupt in my opinion, that objectively true.  Wonder if Frosty makes the top 20 in the B&F?

 

But you guys can clap the top 10, and convince yourself they are worthy.

 

 

 

Posted (edited)
On 9/16/2019 at 11:16 AM, deanox said:

...

2) Coaches that cast votes are ... influenced by conscious/unconscious bias RE player performance, which also is the basis for making decisions on list management and players futures; so it isn't a surprise to see correlations or patterns in vote results and player movements. 

...

 

1 hour ago, TGR said:

.. 

Do you really think that Goodwin, who wanted twiggy Lever for the price of $850 k per year, and 2 draft picks in a super-draft, is going to judge him any way but easy in relation to B&F voting?  Conversely, do you think Goody, who is trying to off-load Frost, is going to go judge him any way but harshly?

Votes per game, I will bet all my good stuff that Goody will give it to Lever.

...

B&F's are absolutely subject to bias, and are more corrupt in my opinion, that objectively true.  Wonder if Frosty makes the top 20 in the B&F?

...

Ah, so you do agree with Option 2 then?

Edited by deanox
Posted
On 9/15/2019 at 4:45 PM, Swooper1987 said:

I was staggered in 2016 when Gawn finished 3rd after a dominant AA year. Somehow Viney won the award that year.  Rob Flower won our B&F once and we were absolutely horrible for pretty much all of his career. I'd not be in the least surprised to see some "strange" results this year as well.

In Robbies day the club had a policy of sharing the B&F around....

Posted
4 hours ago, Jontee said:

In Robbies day the club had a policy of sharing the B&F around....

I doubt that.  Laurie Fowler was a multiple winner.

Posted
On 9/18/2019 at 2:56 PM, TGR said:

>>>

Yet you have a real objective bonefide expert in Rooey, who stated the bleeding obvious.  Frost was our best defender in 2019 bar none.  Frost had 'supreme effort' and he would prefer to play on Lever and May.

 

well he was the only one who played all 22 games, so not surprising

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Demonland Forums  

  • Match Previews, Reports & Articles  

    TRAINING: Wednesday 18th December 2024

    It was the final session of 2024 before the Christmas/New Years break and the Demonland Trackwatchers were out in force to bring you the following preseason training observations from Wednesday's session at Gosch's Paddock. DEMONLAND'S PRESEASON TRAINING OBSERVATIONS TRAINING: Petracca, Oliver, Melksham, Woewodin, Langdon, Rivers, Billings, Sestan, Viney, Fullarton, Adams, Langford, Lever, Petty, Spargo, Fritsch, Bowey, Laurie, Kozzy, Mentha, George, May, Gawn, Turner Tholstrup, Kentfi

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Training Reports

    TRAINING: Monday 16th December 2024

    Demonland Trackwatchers braved the sweltering heat to bring you their Preseason Training observations from Gosch's Paddock on Monday morning. SCOOP JUNIOR'S PRESEASON TRAINING OBSERVATIONS I went down today in what were pretty ordinary conditions - hot and windy. When I got there, they were doing repeat simulations of a stoppage on the wing and then moving the ball inside 50. There seemed to be an emphasis on handballing out of the stoppage, usually there were 3 or 4 handballs to

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Training Reports 1

    TRAINING: Friday 13th December 2024

    With only a few sessions left before the Christmas break a number of Demonlander Trackwatchers headed down to Gosch's Paddock to bring you their observations from this morning's preseason training session. DEMONLAND'S PRESEASON TRAINING OBSERVATIONS PLAYERS IN ATTENDANCE: JVR, Salem, McVee, Petracca, Windsor, Viney, Lever, Spargo, Turner, Gawn, Tholstrup, Oliver, Billings, Langdon, Laurie, Bowey, Melksham, Langford, Lindsay, Jefferson, Howes, McAdam, Rivers, TMac, Adams, Hore, Verrall,

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Training Reports

    TRAINING: Wednesday 11th December 2024

    A few new faces joined our veteran Demonland Trackwatchers on a beautiful morning out at Gosch's Paddock for another Preseason Training Session. BLWNBA'S PRESEASON TRAINING OBSERVATIONS I arrived at around 1015 and the squad was already out on the track. The rehab group consisted of XL, McAdam, Melksham, Spargo and Sestan. Lever was also on restricted duties and appeared to be in runners.  The main group was doing end-to-end transition work in a simulated match situation. Ball mov

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Training Reports

    TRAINING: Monday 9th December 2024

    Once again Demonland Trackwatchers were in attendance at the first preseason training session for the week at Gosch's Paddock to bring you their observations. WAYNE WUSSELL'S PRESEASON TRAINING OBSERVATIONS Looks like very close to 100% attendance. Kelani is back. Same group in rehab. REHAB: Spargo, Lever, Lindsay, Brown & McAdam. Haven’t laid eyes on Fritsch or AMW yet. Fritsch sighted. One unknown mature standing with Goody. Noticing Nathan Bassett much m

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Training Reports

    TRAINING: Friday 6th December 2024

    Some veteran Demonland Trackwatchers ventured down to Gosch's Paddock to bring you the following observations from another Preseason Training Session. WAYNE WUSSELL'S PRESEASON TRAINING OBSERVATIONS Rehab: Lever, Spargo, McAdam, Lindsay, Brown Sinnema is excellent by foot and has a decent vertical leap. Windsor is training with the Defenders. Windsor's run won't be lost playing off half back. In 19 games in 2024 he kicked 8 goals as a winger. I see him getting shots at g

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Training Reports

    TRAINING: Wednesday 4th December 2024

    A couple of intrepid Demonland Trackwatchers headed down to Gosch's Paddock for the midweek Preseason Training Session to bring you the following observations. Demonland's own Whispering Jack was not in attendance but he kicked off proceedings with the following summary of all the Preseason Training action to date. We’re already a month into the MFC preseason (if you started counting when the younger players in the group began the campaign along with some of the more keen older heads)

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Training Reports 2

    BEST OF THE REST by Meggs

    Meggs' Review of Melbourne's AFLW Season 9 ... Congratulations first off to the North Melbourne Kangaroos on winning the 2024 AFLW Premiership. Roos Coach Darren Crocker has assembled a team chock-full of competitive and highly skilful players who outclassed the Brisbane Lions in the Grand Final to remain undefeated throughout Season 9. A huge achievement in what was a dominant season by North. For Melbourne fans, the season was unfortunately one of frustration and disappointment

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    AFLW Melbourne Demons 3

    TRAINING: Monday 2nd December 2024

    There were many Demonland Trackwatchers braving the morning heat at Gosch's Paddock today to witness the players go through the annual 2km time trials. DEMONLAND'S PRESEASON TRAINING OBSERVATIONS Max, TMac & Melksham the first ones out on the track.  Runners are on. Guess they will be doing a lot of running.  TRAINING: Max, TMac, Melksham, Woey, Rivers, AMW, May, Sharp, Kolt, Adams, Sparrow, Jefferson, Billings, Petty, chandler, Howes, Lever, Kozzy, Mentha, Fullarton, Sal

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Training Reports 1
  • Tell a friend

    Love Demonland? Tell a friend!
×
×
  • Create New...