Jump to content


Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)

On one hand, you have pub talk (who else but Yobbo) and PhD speak (Dermie try-hard) and Evangelical talk (who else but Monsignor Whately) where the consensus reached is that B&Fs are the real indication because only the inside know about covert roles etc...

On the other hand, they are absolutely corrupt and manipulated by other biases.  Player contracts that have an incentive clause in relation to B&F position for instance.  The other one is trying to flick off a player.  Now that we know the club think that Frost played 2019 out-of-his-skin, and Clarko will be fooled by this, it will be interesting to see where "supreme effort" and courage (with and without ball in hand) gets him in this year's B&F.  He is top 5 this year without one shadow of a doubt.  Something tells me, Goody and co. will make sure that he finishes in the teens.

As Keating once said, "in the race of life, always back self-interest".

 

pTGR

Edited by TGR
Spelling
  • Haha 2
  • Shocked 1

Posted

I find it hard to believe that the coaching group would discard their weekly votes on our best players to sanction a player, surely the higher a player ends up would guarantee you a better trade value?????????????

Posted (edited)

The system advantages players that have played every game as the final count is the sum of votes from each game with no prorata for # of games played.

For mine Frost is not top 5 and probably not top 10.  Those ahead of him would be (in no particular order) Petracca, Harmes, Oliver, Gawn, Salem, Viney, Fritsch, even Hore perhaps... 

Many things go into the votes that we as fans can't see eg playing to the game plan, 'team first'/unselfish play, attitude, decision making under pressure, following team rules etc.  I have no idea how Frost scores on any of these.  But if he isn't in the top 10, I don't think it means there is 'a fix'. 

And I very much doubt BnF position influences trade decisions.  After all, Hawks traded out Mitchell and Lewis the year they came 1st and 2nd in their BnF.

Freo traded out their BnF winner last year...

Edited by Lucifer's Hero
Posted

Not saying B&F influences trade decisions.  Just implying that clubs experience more difficulty trading a Howe or Kent or Frost or Watts or Dunn if they finish high in the B&F.

 

 

Posted
30 minutes ago, daisycutter said:

another graduate from the university of the bleeding obvious

That’s where you Simpletons get your qualifications.

You take literature from the UBO away, we are only left with 5% of thought provocation and 3% of incoherent dribble.


Posted
1 hour ago, Lord Nev said:

The Bluey is happening before the trade period. Why would the club seemingly decrease his trade value by pushing him down the order of value to us?

 

Read the thread.  It’s nit about value.  It’s about marketing and supporter relations.

  • Haha 1
Posted
2 minutes ago, TGR said:

Read the thread.  It’s nit about value.  It’s about marketing and supporter relations.

 

2 hours ago, TGR said:

 Player contracts that have an incentive clause in relation to B&F position for instance.  The other one is trying to flick off a player.

 

Posted

The BnF will reflect how well the coaching group think a player has played his role and followed the game plan.  Sure brilliance will get votes, but they won't give full votes to players who ignore team plan/rules no matter what the outcome. 

I expect Frost will poll a bit lower than many supporters will expect. Yes he is exciting, he breaks lines, he attacks, and he had great highlights in a solid year. But his no.1 role is being part of a defensive 6, and I think when it comes to Frost, that often comes second. Leaving his man at the wrong time, spoiling team mates, poor positioning during the i50, means that at times he struggled as a defender.  Many of his highlights came after he had messed up. Many highlights end in him messing up (e.g. running too far snuffed confusing the timing of our forwards).

I'm not saying I want him gone, but I understand why he may be tradable.

  • Like 2
Posted
On 9/13/2019 at 3:32 PM, Lord Nev said:

 

 

I hope you are not a prosecution barrister.  That serviette you're holding aint the Shroud of Turin.

Let me be clear.  When clubs contentiously get rid of a player it is in the club's best interest to 'lower' them on the B&F list.

 

This has nothing at all to do with the fruitless task "tricking" other clubs.  This is about marketing and massaging a message to members to minimise any potential fallout.

Posted

Considering Nathan Jones got 4th last year I feel the "Blueys" abit of a joke.

 

  • Like 2
Posted
1 minute ago, Fork 'em said:

Considering Nathan Jones got 4th last year I feel the "Blueys" abit of a joke.

 

I was staggered in 2016 when Gawn finished 3rd after a dominant AA year. Somehow Viney won the award that year.  Rob Flower won our B&F once and we were absolutely horrible for pretty much all of his career. I'd not be in the least surprised to see some "strange" results this year as well.

  • Like 2
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, TGR said:

I hope you are not a prosecution barrister.  That serviette you're holding aint the Shroud of Turin.

Let me be clear.  When clubs contentiously get rid of a player it is in the club's best interest to 'lower' them on the B&F list.

This has nothing at all to do with the fruitless task "tricking" other clubs.  This is about marketing and massaging a message to members to minimise any potential fallout.

So, can you then explain the following:

Beams finishing 2nd in the Lions BnF before being traded to Collingwood.

Neale Freo BnF winner before being traded.

Ablett won the Suns BnF then traded.

That's just a few off the top of my head, but already it seems the evidence doesn't support your assertion.

Case closed.

Edited by Lord Nev
  • Like 4

Posted
1 hour ago, TGR said:

I hope you are not a prosecution barrister.  That serviette you're holding aint the Shroud of Turin.

Let me be clear.  When clubs contentiously get rid of a player it is in the club's best interest to 'lower' them on the B&F list.

 

This has nothing at all to do with the fruitless task "tricking" other clubs.  This is about marketing and massaging a message to members to minimise any potential fallout.

You're wrong. Have a lie down.

  • Like 3
Posted (edited)

We've got two options here:

1) the entire AFL industry is manipulating best and fairest results for the purposes of marketing and supporter management, at the potential detriment of performance bonus payments to players, and not a single person involved in the industry has ever hinted at blowing the whistle. 

Or

2) Coaches that cast votes are a) more knowledgeable of the player role and KPI than the average player and b) influenced by conscious/unconscious bias RE player performance, which also is the basis for making decisions on list management and players futures; so it isn't a surprise to see correlations or patterns in vote results and player movements. 

 

I'm going to go with option 2 on this occasion.

Edited by deanox
  • Like 3
Posted
21 hours ago, deanox said:

We've got two options here:

1) the entire AFL industry is manipulating best and fairest results for the purposes of marketing and supporter management, at the potential detriment of performance bonus payments to players, and not a single person involved in the industry has ever hinted at blowing the whistle. 

Or

2) Coaches that cast votes are a) more knowledgeable of the player role and KPI than the average player and b) influenced by conscious/unconscious bias RE player performance, which also is the basis for making decisions on list management and players futures; so it isn't a surprise to see correlations or patterns in vote results and player movements. 

 

I'm going to go with option 2 on this occasion.

Someone has blown the whistle.  Refer to Western Bulldogs saga 1-2 decades ago.

 

Option 2?

This is a coach that refused to review the 2018 prelim.  This is a coach that said 'top 4 no longer matters'.  This is a coach that has gone short-term with many decisions (Lever for 2 first rounders in a super draft, Jordie Lewis game-time, passing on the King twin and the list goes on).  This is a coach that played Lewis and Jones on the wings at the G in a big game.

 

His short-termism and decision making quality will only worsen as he coaches for his life in 2020.

  • Like 1

Posted (edited)
23 hours ago, TGR said:

Someone has blown the whistle.  Refer to Western Bulldogs saga 1-2 decades ago.

 

Option 2?

This is a coach that refused to review the 2018 prelim.  This is a coach that said 'top 4 no longer matters'.  This is a coach that has gone short-term with many decisions (Lever for 2 first rounders in a super draft, Jordie Lewis game-time, passing on the King twin and the list goes on).  This is a coach that played Lewis and Jones on the wings at the G in a big game.

 

His short-termism and decision making quality will only worsen as he coaches for his life in 2020.

So 2 decades ago one person blew the whistle? Given how performance based AFL contracts are, manipulating such results for the sake of marketing opens a very large can of worms.

Secondly, from your cherry picking attack on Goodwin, it's clear you're either result led by sensationalist media or deliberately missrepresenting the situation to suit your line of arguement.

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/grand-final-was-the-real-lesson-for-the-demons-goodwin-20190307-p512hl.html

"The Demons coach did not spend long dwelling on the preliminary final blowout..." (not "did not review")

"The Demons did not do a regular play-by-play review of the game with their players because it was futile when they had played so far outside the way they know they should play, and outside the way they had been playing." (This doesn't imply the coaches didn't review it, and it didn't imply they still didn't review the overall game with the players, they just didn't hammer ever little mistake at the end of a long season)

“I tried to parcel our finals up into three. We had two really great experiences and one poor one. I certainly didn’t dwell too much on the way we played because it was nothing like the way the Melbourne team plays. But you do reflect on the things in our program we keep addressing and learning from,” he said." (Again, this implies they reviewed and took learnings from the game, they just didn't hammer the players about little [censored] on an overall horrible day)

 

If you want to maintain your position of conspiracy theories you at least need to substantiate it. The onus of proof is on you. 

 

Edit: for clarity, you're the one who tried to use your opinion of Goodwin to leverage the conspiracy theory of manipulating bnf results. My post talked about coaches and coaching groups in general, and applies across the board to all clubs. Just because you don't like Goodwin, doesn't mean all coaching groups manipulate bnf results. 

Edited by deanox
Posted
On 9/13/2019 at 12:52 PM, TGR said:

On one hand, you have pub talk (who else but Yobbo) and PhD speak (Dermie try-hard) and Evangelical talk (who else but Monsignor Whately) where the consensus reached is that B&Fs are the real indication because only the inside know about covert roles etc...

On the other hand, they are absolutely corrupt and manipulated by other biases.  Player contracts that have an incentive clause in relation to B&F position for instance.  The other one is trying to flick off a player.  Now that we know the club think that Frost played 2019 out-of-his-skin, and Clarko will be fooled by this, it will be interesting to see where "supreme effort" and courage (with and without ball in hand) gets him in this year's B&F.  He is top 5 this year without one shadow of a doubt.  Something tells me, Goody and co. will make sure that he finishes in the teens.

As Keating once said, "in the race of life, always back self-interest".

 

pTGR

If you honestly believe that ...you are stating that the club you support is both dishonest & morally corrupt...god help us if we don’t have a good 2020...I can’t even begin to think of the the vitriol that will be posted ?

  • Shocked 1

Posted
6 hours ago, deanox said:

 

Edit: for clarity, you're the one who tried to use your opinion of Goodwin to leverage the conspiracy theory of manipulating bnf results. My post talked about coaches and coaching groups in general, and applies across the board to all clubs. Just because you don't like Goodwin, doesn't mean all coaching groups manipulate bnf results. 

You guys live in la-la land.

Do you really think that Goodwin, who wanted twiggy Lever for the price of $850 k per year, and 2 draft picks in a super-draft, is going to judge him any way but easy in relation to B&F voting?  Conversely, do you think Goody, who is trying to off-load Frost, is going to go judge him any way but harshly?

Votes per game, I will bet all my good stuff that Goody will give it to Lever.

 

Yet you have a real objective bonefide expert in Rooey, who stated the bleeding obvious.  Frost was our best defender in 2019 bar none.  Frost had 'supreme effort' and he would prefer to play on Lever and May.

 

Human nature.  Roosy wouldn't have Howe in Collingwood's leadership group at the moment....or indeed Dunn.

 

B&F's are absolutely subject to bias, and are more corrupt in my opinion, that objectively true.  Wonder if Frosty makes the top 20 in the B&F?

 

But you guys can clap the top 10, and convince yourself they are worthy.

 

 

 

Posted (edited)
On 9/16/2019 at 11:16 AM, deanox said:

...

2) Coaches that cast votes are ... influenced by conscious/unconscious bias RE player performance, which also is the basis for making decisions on list management and players futures; so it isn't a surprise to see correlations or patterns in vote results and player movements. 

...

 

1 hour ago, TGR said:

.. 

Do you really think that Goodwin, who wanted twiggy Lever for the price of $850 k per year, and 2 draft picks in a super-draft, is going to judge him any way but easy in relation to B&F voting?  Conversely, do you think Goody, who is trying to off-load Frost, is going to go judge him any way but harshly?

Votes per game, I will bet all my good stuff that Goody will give it to Lever.

...

B&F's are absolutely subject to bias, and are more corrupt in my opinion, that objectively true.  Wonder if Frosty makes the top 20 in the B&F?

...

Ah, so you do agree with Option 2 then?

Edited by deanox
Posted
On 9/15/2019 at 4:45 PM, Swooper1987 said:

I was staggered in 2016 when Gawn finished 3rd after a dominant AA year. Somehow Viney won the award that year.  Rob Flower won our B&F once and we were absolutely horrible for pretty much all of his career. I'd not be in the least surprised to see some "strange" results this year as well.

In Robbies day the club had a policy of sharing the B&F around....

Posted
4 hours ago, Jontee said:

In Robbies day the club had a policy of sharing the B&F around....

I doubt that.  Laurie Fowler was a multiple winner.

Posted
On 9/18/2019 at 2:56 PM, TGR said:

>>>

Yet you have a real objective bonefide expert in Rooey, who stated the bleeding obvious.  Frost was our best defender in 2019 bar none.  Frost had 'supreme effort' and he would prefer to play on Lever and May.

 

well he was the only one who played all 22 games, so not surprising

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Demonland Forums  

  • Match Previews, Reports & Articles  

    2024 Player Reviews: #15 Ed Langdon

    The Demon running machine came back with a vengeance after a leaner than usual year in 2023.  Date of Birth: 1 February 1996 Height: 182cm Games MFC 2024: 22 Career Total: 179 Goals MFC 2024: 9 Career Total: 76 Brownlow Medal Votes: 5 Melbourne Football Club: 5th Best & Fairest: 352 votes

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons 6

    2024 Player Reviews: #24 Trent Rivers

    The premiership defender had his best year yet as he was given the opportunity to move into the midfield and made a good fist of it. Date of Birth: 30 July 2001 Games MFC 2024: 23 Career Total: 100 Goals MFC 2024: 2 Career Total:  9 Brownlow Medal Votes: 7 Melbourne Football Club: 6th Best & Fairest: 350 votes

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons 2

    TRAINING: Monday 11th November 2024

    Veteran Demonland Trackwatchers Kev Martin, Slartibartfast & Demon Wheels were on hand at Gosch's Paddock to kick off the official first training session for the 1st to 4th year players with a few elder statesmen in attendance as well. KEV MARTIN'S PRESEASON TRAINING OBSERVATIONS Beautiful morning. Joy all round, they look like they want to be there.  21 in the squad. Looks like the leadership group is TMac, Viney Chandler and Petty. They look like they have sli

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Training Reports 2

    2024 Player Reviews: #1 Steven May

    The years are rolling by but May continued to be rock solid in a key defensive position despite some injury concerns. He showed great resilience in coming back from a nasty rib injury and is expected to continue in that role for another couple of seasons. Date of Birth: 10 January 1992 Height: 193cm Games MFC 2024: 19 Career Total: 235 Goals MFC 2024: 1 Career Total: 24 Melbourne Football Club: 9th Best & Fairest: 316 votes

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons

    2024 Player Reviews: #4 Judd McVee

    It was another strong season from McVee who spent most of his time mainly at half back but he also looked at home on a few occasions when he was moved into the midfield. There could be more of that in 2025. Date of Birth: 7 August 2003 Height: 185cm Games MFC 2024: 23 Career Total: 48 Goals MFC 2024: 1 Career Total: 1 Brownlow Medal Votes: 1 Melbourne Football Club: 7th Best & Fairest: 347 votes

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons 5

    2024 Player Reviews: #31 Bayley Fritsch

    Once again the club’s top goal scorer but he had a few uncharacteristic flat spots during the season and the club will be looking for much better from him in 2025. Date of Birth: 6 December 1996 Height: 188cm Games MFC 2024: 23 Career Total: 149 Goals MFC 2024: 41 Career Total: 252 Brownlow Medal Votes: 4

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons 9

    2024 Player Reviews: #18 Jake Melksham

    After sustaining a torn ACL in the final match of the 2023 season Jake added a bit to the attack late in the 2024 season upon his return. He has re-signed on to the Demons for 1 more season in 2025. Date of Birth: 12 August 1991 Height: 186cm Games MFC 2024: 8 Career Total: 229 Goals MFC 2024: 8 Career Total: 188

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons 7

    2024 Player Reviews: #3 Christian Salem

    The luckless Salem suffered a hamstring injury against the Lions early in the season and, after missing a number of games, he was never at his best. He was also inconvenienced by minor niggles later in the season. This was a blow for the club that sorely needed him to fill gaps in the midfield at times as well as to do his best work in defence. Date of Birth: 15 July 1995 Height: 184cm Games MFC 2024: 17 Career Total: 176 Goals MFC 2024: 1 Career Total: 26 Brownlow Meda

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons 8

    2024 Player Reviews: #39 Koltyn Tholstrop

    The first round draft pick at #13 from twelve months ago the strongly built medium forward has had an impressive introduction to AFL football and is expected to spend more midfield moments as his career progresses. Date of Birth: 25 July 2005 Height: 186cm Games MFC 2024: 10 Career Total: 10 Goals MFC 2024: 5 Career Total: 5 Games CDFC 2024: 7 Goals CDFC 2024: 4

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons 9
  • Tell a friend

    Love Demonland? Tell a friend!
×
×
  • Create New...