2 hours ago, Wiseblood said:

Where from?  

Same place as everyone else, drafting and trading. Look at who Port brought in and other clubs.

This was an area of concern to me and others on here at least for the last few years, not just this year.

It is interesting that we are now called the slowest side in the AFL by all the media, which includes many past players, who should know.

We have chased contested beasts only for the last few years and I am sure the FD will acknowledge that.

Pace and skill was not our priority and that is why we have skill problems and are slow.

Pace and skill are a big part of our current problems.

On 4/23/2019 at 12:47 PM, Smokey said:

We needed to pinch the flag last year a la doggies 2016. We are well and truly headed down the same  path minus the chocolates of a random unexpected flag. Classic Melbourne. 
 

I was just thinking today how last year Melbourne was the Bulldogs of 2016, only we couldn't go all the way like they did.

2 minutes ago, Redleg said:

Same place as everyone else, drafting and trading. Look at who Port brought in and other clubs.

This was an area of concern to me and others on here at least for the last few years, not just this year.

It is interesting that we are now called the slowest side in the AFL by all the media, which includes many past players, who should know.

We have chased contested beasts only for the last few years and I am sure the FD will acknowledge that.

Pace and skill was not our priority and that is why we have skill problems and are slow.

Pace and skill are a big part of our current problems.

We had one first round pick - how long has the club been crying out for a proper key back?  Posters have been pleading for it for years, so we added May for the Hogan pick, and obviously we got Lever into the club as well.

Guys like Butters, for example, were therefore not available to us.  Sparrow doesn't exactly look slow on the minimal stuff I've seen of him, although as you say, he came to us more as a contested player.

If we had gone into this season with just Oscar and Frost as our key backs while we wait for Lever to return, most supporters on here would be getting stuck into the club for not addressing that need.  Instead, we traded for it, and now we are bemoaning not going to the draft to get more pace.  

Pace is a minor part of our problem and, to address it, you need players to come in who have the stamina to use that pace all day.  The only bloke out there available to fill that role for us was Polec, and North threw a war chest at him which no one else could match.

We also drafted in Bedford as that project small forward with pace, and we did also add Oskar Baker the previous year.

But, right now as a club, we can't do anything right.  We did what so many wanted - get in a key back to push one of Oscar or Frost out of the side.  Now we are upset we didn't bring in pace and skill.   

5 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

We also drafted in Bedford as that project small forward with pace, and we did also add Oskar Baker the previous year.

 

I have doubts either of these player will make it...Bedford a better chance than Baker but the odds are still slim...

3 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

We had one first round pick - how long has the club been crying out for a proper key back?  Posters have been pleading for it for years, so we added May for the Hogan pick, and obviously we got Lever into the club as well.

Guys like Butters, for example, were therefore not available to us.  Sparrow doesn't exactly look slow on the minimal stuff I've seen of him, although as you say, he came to us more as a contested player.

If we had gone into this season with just Oscar and Frost as our key backs while we wait for Lever to return, most supporters on here would be getting stuck into the club for not addressing that need.  Instead, we traded for it, and now we are bemoaning not going to the draft to get more pace.  

Pace is a minor part of our problem and, to address it, you need players to come in who have the stamina to use that pace all day.  The only bloke out there available to fill that role for us was Polec, and North threw a war chest at him which no one else could match.

We also drafted in Bedford as that project small forward with pace, and we did also add Oskar Baker the previous year.

But, right now as a club, we can't do anything right.  We did what so many wanted - get in a key back to push one of Oscar or Frost out of the side.  Now we are upset we didn't bring in pace and skill.   

Fair enough.

I just think that we had later picks that could have been used to fill weaknesses.

I know hindsight is easy but as an example Petruccelle went well after Spargo.

He is not the only one taken later in  the last few drafts with pace.

If we had taken Petruccelle for example and say another young Garlett type, with later picks over the last few years, the story would be a bit different.

Anyway it is now spilled milk and we will need to do something about it in the drafts and trading periods ahead.

We also have been unlucky in trading picks for players who are now injured and that always exacerbates the problem.

Just now, rjay said:

I have doubts either of these player will make it...Bedford a better chance than Baker but the odds are still slim...

True - I'm not saying either will make it, but we've drafted in some pace.

Clearly, the club identified that our key position stocks in the back half was a major issue.  Many on here agreed.

Now we're getting stuck into the club that we didn't address the fact that we need more pace.  We can't necessarily do both in one hit.  Not only that, pace can be overrated in terms of what that player can bring to the side.  Outside runners, to me, are far more hit and miss than anywhere else on the ground.  Cale Morton bring a prime example.

6 minutes ago, Redleg said:

 

Pace and skill are a big part of our current problems.

I reckon the biggest part of the problem.

A situation exacerbated by the facts that:

• Many opposition teams have adopted WC's spread strategy that requires speed to cover free players (and those that haven't look to do so against us to expose our lack of pace) 
• Our woeful turnovers from missed kicks expose and exacerbate our lack of pace as everyone is out of position  when we turn it over
• You can't kick goals if you continually butcher the ball going inside 50 and when you do actually get a shot hit the behind post from 30 direct in front or fail to make the distance from 35
• When we do butcher the ball going inside 50 we don't have single player who pick the ball off the ground and turn a crap kick into an opportunity (by the by if i hear the stupid expression ground ball one more time my head will explode)

 

2 minutes ago, Redleg said:

Fair enough.

I just think that we had later picks that could have been used to fill weaknesses.

I know hindsight is easy but as an example Petruccelle went well after Spargo.

He is not the only one taken later in  the last few drafts with pace.

If we had taken Petruccelle for example and say another young Garlett type, with later picks over the last few years, the story would be a bit different.

Anyway it is now spilled milk and we will need to do something about it in the drafts and trading periods ahead.

We also have been unlucky in trading picks for players who are now injured and that always exacerbates the problem.

And those are fair points too.  Hindsight in terms of how we've drafted is always something that comes up.  Who knows how such players were viewed in the inner sanctum?  Petrucelle had a ripper on the weekend, but had done little prior to that.  He may go on to be a mainstay in the Eagle side, or her may not.  Time will tell.

I appreciate the robust discussion on the topic, though. It's made a pretty bland Wednesday a little more enjoyable before the game!

4 minutes ago, binman said:

I reckon the biggest part of the problem.

A situation exacerbated by the facts that:

• Many opposition teams have adopted WC's spread strategy that requires speed to cover free players (and those that haven't look to do so against us to expose our lack of pace) 
• Our woeful turnovers from missed kicks expose and exacerbate our lack of pace as everyone is out of position  when we turn it over
• You can't kick goals if you continually butcher the ball going inside 50 and when you do actually get a shot hit the behind post from 30 direct in front or fail to make the distance from 35
• When we do butcher the ball going inside 50 we don't have single player who pick the ball off the ground and turn a crap kick into an opportunity (by the by if i hear the stupid expression ground ball one more time my head will explode)

 

Agree with statement that poor skill kills you.

I have mentioned lack of pace and skill to MFC officials and been politely told I am wrong.

16 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

True - I'm not saying either will make it, but we've drafted in some pace.

Clearly, the club identified that our key position stocks in the back half was a major issue.  Many on here agreed.

Now we're getting stuck into the club that we didn't address the fact that we need more pace.  We can't necessarily do both in one hit.  Not only that, pace can be overrated in terms of what that player can bring to the side.  Outside runners, to me, are far more hit and miss than anywhere else on the ground.  Cale Morton bring a prime example.

I'm not so keen on outside runners...in the draft. Pace that can get there own ball is handy though.

We probably screwed ourselves in the Hogan trade...a pick for May and something in the deal that brought Langdon would have been handy.

We paid overs for Lever.

Then the drafting of Spargo and Petty is a bit hard to understand.

So I think we've wasted opportunities to add class to the list.

Edited April 24, 20195 yr by rjay

3 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

And those are fair points too.  Hindsight in terms of how we've drafted is always something that comes up.  Who knows how such players were viewed in the inner sanctum?  Petrucelle had a ripper on the weekend, but had done little prior to that.  He may go on to be a mainstay in the Eagle side, or her may not.  Time will tell.

I appreciate the robust discussion on the topic, though. It's made a pretty bland Wednesday a little more enjoyable before the game!

Wise, I think those of us who are heavily invested in this club and have been for years, are just so disappointed and frustrated with the terrible start, to what most thought would be a very good season, that we are scratching around looking for the reasons.

Obviously there are more than just one, many of which we have identified and discussed on DL.

Anyway I take some solace that others are as upset as my family and me.

9 minutes ago, Redleg said:

Agree with statement that poor skill kills you.

I have mentioned lack of pace and skill to MFC officials and been politely told I am wrong.

I hope that's not me, as it wasn't my intention to try and suggest you're wrong. I just probably don't have it as high on my 'need to fix' list as you do.  Nothing wrong with that.

2 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

I hope that's not me, as it wasn't my intention to try and suggest you're wrong. I just probably don't have it as high on my 'need to fix' list as you do.  Nothing wrong with that.

It's number one on my list. Well one, two and three. Skilled kicks two, players with pace three and players with both number 1.

I was surprised we drafted Sparrow. Does not seem that quick and skills seem just ok. 

A player like Jack Martin is what we need and who we should be focused on trading in. 

One reason why i was disappointed to lose Watts is that he was our best kick. Yes we got fritta but there is no reason we could not have had both (to be clear I understand the cultural stuff and as i have said previoulsy i understand and respect the decision)

3 minutes ago, binman said:

It's number one on my list. Well one, two and three. Skilled kicks two, players with pace three and players with both number 1.

I was surprised we drafted Sparrow. Does not seem that quick and skills seem just ok. 

A player like Jack Martin is what we need and who we should be focused on trading in. 

One reason why i was disappointed to lose Watts is that he was our best kick. Yes we got fritta but there is no reason we could not have had both (to be clear I understand the cultural stuff and as i have said previoulsy i understand and respect the decision)

And that's okay by me.  I see it as a problem, but I have our fitness levels, pre-season and availability of key players as a bigger problem for me.  Our gameplan does work, but we need the players to not only implement it, but to be able to run out games to do so.  We are far short of that at the minute.  I'm not discounting the skills and pace aspect, but when we were on last year, we didn't look like a slow side at all due to how well we could move the ball.  Right now we aren't running or hitting contests hard enough, and that is down to the injuries and poor pre-season we've had.

But I know supporters see it differently, which is more than okay.  If we all agreed all the time this board would be very boring!

16 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

And that's okay by me.  I see it as a problem, but I have our fitness levels, pre-season and availability of key players as a bigger problem for me.  Our gameplan does work, but we need the players to not only implement it, but to be able to run out games to do so.  We are far short of that at the minute.  I'm not discounting the skills and pace aspect, but when we were on last year, we didn't look like a slow side at all due to how well we could move the ball.  Right now we aren't running or hitting contests hard enough, and that is down to the injuries and poor pre-season we've had.

But I know supporters see it differently, which is more than okay.  If we all agreed all the time this board would be very boring!

Totally agree  fitness levels, pre-season and availability of key players are the key reason we are travelling so poorly this year. It is a given those things are fundamental to a teams chances in any given season.

But i'm talking in a more general sense about what we need to be flag contending side, not why we are rubbish this season.

That said having some of our best players out means we have even poorer kicks come into the side.

Edited April 24, 20195 yr by binman

1 hour ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Leave the humour out of this. You are not a funny man

you and Satyr have the same Blind Faith

So what is your margin for tonight?

Sorry to disappoint you but I do not have blind faith in anything, the other things I am not is hysterical and pessimistic.As far as tonight's game is concerned it is going to be difficult to win but If I gave up that easy I would have died multiple times. 

50 minutes ago, Redleg said:

Agree with statement that poor skill kills you.

I have mentioned lack of pace and skill to MFC officials and been politely told I am wrong.

Hope said MFC officials see it differently this season or we are going nowhere!

10 minutes ago, drysdale demon said:

Sorry to disappoint you but I do not have blind faith in anything, the other things I am not is hysterical and pessimistic.As far as tonight's game is concerned it is going to be difficult to win but If I gave up that easy I would have died multiple times. 

Who said anything about giving up??

i was expecting to see a competitive team this year, but it seems for Melbourne Supporters that is too much to ask for, it’s a standard for a lot of other clubs. 

But for us, if i expect that standard i am labelled hysterical and pessimistic 

Go figure...

8 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

But for us, if i expect that standard i am labelled hysterical and pessimistic 

Was not referring to you directly, but you would have to admit there a lot of posters on this sit that are.

5 hours ago, S_T said:

If so many of you are so sure the FD reviewed that game heavily despite the message over the offseason from the club that it wasn't (see post #4 which mentioned some of the times), please explain why that message came out?  What did they hope to achieve by publicly downplaying how much that loss to WCE was analysed? I don't get it.

It's a good question. I suppose coming out and saying we were completely schooled by another AFL team of which we would have considered one of our primary competitors for the season ahead - and that we were desperately trying to work out what happened - isn't the extra shot of confidence you want to give to that opposition team - or, the right messaging to our own players if you want to persist with the system.

I think our game-plan currently stinks without tweaks and I've had wariness about it for some time like many on here (although more patience than most). But I didn't lose any extra faith due to the prelim and agreed with Goodwin's appraisal: we didn't play like we had in the weeks prior or were capable of. We were sloppy and overawed to start the match and it slipped away from us before we could settle. In hindsight, there may have been further evidence of cracks.

For those in the camp who firmly believe Goodwin and the footy department just threw the tape in the bin, do you think if they sat down and actually watched it they would have suddenly seen the light? Do you think they also didn't review the other games during last season where we were picked apart? As in, that they have no idea about football whatsoever and are completely blind to our weaknesses in personnel and the pain points of our game-plan?

We are stubbornly backing in our game plan because we have assessed it against whatever measures we deem important over the long run and have made the decision to do so. We are evidently of the belief that if we came out and hunted in packs and ran forward in waves against WC like we had been doing we would have overcome the tactics used against us. It may be the wrong judgement. But reviewing the prelim or not isn't some smoking gun.

TLDR: They may be the wrong decisions but we are making them with our eyes wide open.

49 minutes ago, drysdale demon said:

Was not referring to you directly, but you would have to admit there a lot of posters on this sit that are.

This Club excels at breaking peoples hearts, i have no problem with people being angry and feeling cheated by the MFC at all

In 2007 and 08 i was told by certain people on HERE to be patient and not to have such high expectations!!!

I mean really, why should this club get a free ride in continuous mediocrity when most other clubs strive to get better and actually win Premierships. 

In 2007-08 our playing list was massively out of balance and we all saw what happened. 10-12 years down the track i see the same problems with the list. 

WE ARE DEAD SLOW and have completely miss read the new rules 

Why?

Everyone else seems to have a good handle on what is required 

We had Roos for 3 years, we needed him for at least another 2 on top of that. The problems are that ingrained. 

Don’t pot people for getting angry at The MFC....

1 hour ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Hope said MFC officials see it differently this season or we are going nowhere!

Lucifer.   Build in layers,  like a bricklayer.  Start with solid foundations,  hard reinforced concrete.

... start adding numerous blocks  (skills),  layer upon layer.   running, vision, footy IQ, Courage, discipline, foot-skills, hand-skills, overhead skills, ground-ball skills, foot-speed, side-step, physical body on body skills, marking, tackling, flair, dour,

 

I would think the hard foundations are....  courage, hardness, dour attitude, discipline, physical body on body skills, tackling,

Add as many as you can get,  with decent combo's of these skills...   not shirking on the FF Foundations First.

.

We are not grand finalists to be,  Yet.

.

Edited April 24, 20195 yr by DV8

15 minutes ago, DV8 said:

Lucifer.   Build in layers,  like a bricklayer.start with solid foundations,  hard reinforced concrete.

... start adding numerous blocks  (skills),  layer upon layer.   running, vision, footy IQ, Courage, discipline, foot-skills, hand-skills, overhead skills, ground-ball skills, foot-speed, side-step, physical body on body skills, marking, tackling, flair, dour,

I would think the hard foundations are....  courage, hardness, dour attitude, discipline, physical body on body skills, tackling, 

Add as many as you can get,  with decent combo's of these skills...   not shirking on the FF Foundations First..

We are not grand finalists to be,  Yet.

Some  fair comments.

The bolded part are the foundations at every club.  These days players don't last long at any club without them. 

All clubs need more strings to their bow and we don't seem to have them, not even after 3-4 years of list management/player development of Goodwin and Mahoney calling the shots.  After reading Redleg's comment I'm not confident we are going to add the layers you speak of any time soon.

Edited April 24, 20195 yr by Lucifer's Hero

11 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

They are the foundations at every club.  These days players don't last long at any club without them. 

All clubs need more strings to their bow and we don't seem to have them, not even after 3-4 years of list management/player development of Goodwin and Mahoney calling the shots.  After reading Redleg's comment I'm not confident we are going to add the layers you speak of any time soon.

They should be the basis of building every club.   But they are not always. and there is different levels of hardness...  i would say Harmes should be seen as the average.   Varying from TMc thru to Vandenberg.

 

We've made some mistakes like...  morton, bennell gysberts, watts, blease, cook, and many others I fdon't care to remember at this stage.

 

I think its a great idea to Not recruit, any who do not have the courage to stand under a high ball. 

As a basis.  Do not recruit NoN hard workers.

And do not recruit those who are too selfish to share with their teammates.

 

I would Not put a line thru kids,  with some troubles.  Who posses other attributes like team orientation, and selflessness.

 

I would recruit Dustin Martin in a heartbeat.

 

.

Edited April 24, 20195 yr by DV8

1 hour ago, Sir Why You Little said:

This Club excels at breaking peoples hearts, i have no problem with people being angry and feeling cheated by the MFC at all

In 2007 and 08 i was told by certain people on HERE to be patient and not to have such high expectations!!!

I mean really, why should this club get a free ride in continuous mediocrity when most other clubs strive to get better and actually win Premierships. 

In 2007-08 our playing list was massively out of balance and we all saw what happened. 10-12 years down the track i see the same problems with the list. 

WE ARE DEAD SLOW and have completely miss read the new rules 

Why?

Everyone else seems to have a good handle on what is required 

We had Roos for 3 years, we needed him for at least another 2 on top of that. The problems are that ingrained. 

Don’t pot people for getting angry at The MFC....

There is a big difference between being angry and the hysterical carrying on by some posters.