Fast and skilful players with endurance

[Wrecker45 3,378]

Sorry if this is overlap on other threads but I think that being able to draft fast, skillful,  players of AFL standard is borderline  myth. The really fast ones often don't have the endurance.

We drafted Jack Watts at number 1 who was both fast and skillful. It didn't work out. Toumpas fast and skillful and it didn't work out. Both early draft picks and early draft picks on stats alone, are much more likely to work out. The same posters complaining that we took Toumpas over Wines are complaining we take competitive beasts over pace and skill.

Chris Judd and Dangerfield, widely considered two of the best players of a generation were/are more speed and competitive beats than speed and skill. 

The 6-6-6 rule has left us exposed for pace & skill but you can't draft for the future properly if the AFL keeps changing the rules without notice. After the rule change we drafted May who is pace, competitive beast and skill. The majority of demonland are complaining on the back of an injury that may or may not be related to the condition he turned up in day 1 of the pre-season. HE is the type of player we are screaming for.

Competitive beast players are overwhelmingly more consistent that skilful outside players. 

Drafting a fast, skilful competitive beast player, happens very rarely for any team. Lightning fast, skillful  and competitive players almost always end up the best player in the league think Gary Ablett jnr and Daniel Kerr.

This idea we are not drafting pace and skill reminds me of when Geelong took Tenace. You can only draft what is available. It doesn't matter how fast and skillful a player is they still need to be able to get the footy.

I would love it if Demonland posters could provide examples of pace and skill players that we should have taken in the last 5 years. That have worked out.

 

 

Edited April 8, 2019 by Grapeviney

[Wrecker45 3,378]

When we were flying last season our best pace and skill player, Garlett, couldn't get a game.

[Watts the matter 1,235]

18 minutes ago, Wrecker45 said:

Sorry if this is overlap on other threads but I think that being able to draft fast, skillful,  players of AFL standard is borderline  myth. The really fast ones often don't have the endurance.

We drafted Jack Watts at number 1 who was both fast and skillful. It didn't work out. Toumpas fast and skillful and it didn't work out. Both early draft picks and early draft picks on stats alone, are much more likely to work out. The same posters complaining that we took Toumpas over Wines are complaining we take competitive beasts over pace and skill.

Chris Judd and Dangerfield, widely considered two of the best players of a generation were/are more speed and competitive beats than speed and skill. 

The 6-6-6 rule has left us exposed for pace & skill but you can't draft for the future properly if the AFL keeps changing the rules without notice. After the rule change we drafted May who is pace, competitive beast and skill. The majority of demonland are complaining on the back of an injury that may or may not be related to the condition he turned up in day 1 of the pre-season. HE is the type of player we are screaming for.

Competitive beast players are overwhelmingly more consistent that skilful outside players. 

Drafting a fast, skilful competitive beast player, happens very rarely for any team. Lightning fast, skillful  and competitive players almost always end up the best player in the league think Gary Ablett jnr and Daniel Kerr.

This idea we are not drafting pace and skill reminds me of when Geelong took Tenace. You can only draft what is available. It doesn't matter how fast and skillful a player is they still need to be able to get the footy.

I would love it if Demonland posters could provide examples of pace and skill players that we should have taken in the last 5 years. That have worked out.

 

 

If you are a Melbourne supporter or recruiter then that's probably what you think. The problem is it isn't actually a myth. I think you are missing the point, a mixture of different types of players works best, we lack a point of difference in our team. Let's take a look at the past 2 premiership teams and the speed they have.

West Coast: Ryan, Rioli, Jetta, Cripps with Shuey and Gaff who provide better run than anyone we have and Petrucelle developing now. 

Richmond: Riloi, Butler, Short, Castagna and to a lesser extent Higgins and Lambert. Then they have others Bolton and Markov developing.

 

 

[goodwindees 2,586]

Worpel would have been a much better selection than either Spargo or Petty. 

[Redleg 41,942]

1 hour ago, goodwindees said:

Worpel would have been a much better selection than either Spargo or Petty. 

Petty will be a good player for us.

[beelzebub 23,390]

9 hours ago, Redleg said:

Petty will be a good player for us.

When ? 3-4 ?

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

Toumpas was neither fast nor skillful.

[Wrecker45 3,378]

1 hour ago, Clint Bizkit said:

Toumpas was neither fast nor skillful.

He was supposed to be. We didn’t draft him for bravery or because he was a competitive beast.

[Wrecker45 3,378]

2 hours ago, beelzebub said:

When ? 3-4 ?

4 2 6.

depends if the AFL change the rules at the end of the season that makes a mockery of the previous 5 years of recruitment strategy.

[Wrecker45 3,378]

16 hours ago, Watts the matter said:

If you are a Melbourne supporter or recruiter then that's probably what you think. The problem is it isn't actually a myth. I think you are missing the point, a mixture of different types of players works best, we lack a point of difference in our team. Let's take a look at the past 2 premiership teams and the speed they have.

West Coast: Ryan, Rioli, Jetta, Cripps with Shuey and Gaff who provide better run than anyone we have and Petrucelle developing now. 

Richmond: Riloi, Butler, Short, Castagna and to a lesser extent Higgins and Lambert. Then they have others Bolton and Markov developing.

 

 

I would back Frost, Hunt and May to outrun any of them.

[Watts the matter 1,235]

44 minutes ago, Wrecker45 said:

I would back Frost, Hunt and May to outrun any of them.

Well you would lose on that bet.

Aside for this, the three of them have poor agility and struggle to change direction. Hunt and Frost are also not one touch players and have terrible skills.

[Wrecker45 3,378]

Happy for you to name which player I would lose on.

Hunt and Frost both have AFL standard skills with pace wich is unusual. The thing that lets them both down is decision making.

[La Dee-vina Comedia 17,015]

It's an interesting point made in the OP. I suspect here have been a few players that meet the criteria of fast + endurance + skillful, but I doubt there have been many. Exercise physiologists will probably be able to point out that pace and endurance require different muscle and body types - after all, sprinters don't magically turn into long distance runners due to aerobic versus anaerobic requirements. And then you have to add in the skill component.

Nevertheless, of the current crop, I suspect Isaac Smith might be as good an example as any.

[Watts the matter 1,235]

1 minute ago, Wrecker45 said:

Happy for you to name which player I would lose on.

Hunt and Frost both have AFL standard skills with pace wich is unusual. The thing that lets them both down is decision making.

It's not even a contest with Lewis Jetta and Daniel Riloi. They are clearly quicker and anyone who watches multiple football games a week would know this. Regardless, AFL is not about straight line running, once you bring in agility it's not even close.

By AFL standard skills I don't know what you are referring to. I would label the ability to judge a ball in the air as an AFL skill as would not running past the ball or fumbling. 

Both of them are poor kicks, you can try and mask it as decision making but in AFL you need to make a decision that you are capable of executing and then hit the target. The ball is just as likely to end with the opposition as it is with a teammate with either of these two players in possession. 

[Watts the matter 1,235]

2 minutes ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

It's an interesting point made in the OP. I suspect here have been a few players that meet the criteria of fast + endurance + skillful, but I doubt there have been many. Exercise physiologists will probably be able to point out that pace and endurance require different muscle and body types - after all, sprinters don't magically turn into long distance runners due to aerobic versus anaerobic requirements. And then you have to add in the skill component.

Nevertheless, of the current crop, I suspect Isaac Smith might be as good an example as any.

Brad Hill and Stephen Hill also, in terms of speed and endurance.

 

[Wrecker45 3,378]

11 minutes ago, Watts the matter said:

It's not even a contest with Lewis Jetta and Daniel Riloi. They are clearly quicker and anyone who watches multiple football games a week would know this. Regardless, AFL is not about straight line running, once you bring in agility it's not even close.

By AFL standard skills I don't know what you are referring to. I would label the ability to judge a ball in the air as an AFL skill as would not running past the ball or fumbling. 

Both of them are poor kicks, you can try and mask it as decision making but in AFL you need to make a decision that you are capable of executing and then hit the target. The ball is just as likely to end with the opposition as it is with a teammate with either of these two players in possession. 

Lewis Jetta is a horrible kick. The Rioli’s rival the Ablett’s as the greatest football family ever,  they are the exception not the rule.

You are making my point for me.

Edited April 9, 2019 by Wrecker45

[Watts the matter 1,235]

55 minutes ago, Wrecker45 said:

Lewis Jetta is a horrible kick. The Rioli’s rival the Ablett’s as the greatest football family ever,  they are the exception not the rule.

You are making my point for me.

Ok, clearly you don't watch football so have a look at this and come back to me. If you can find the same for Jayden Hunt I would love to see it. West Coast clearly love Jetta kicking in because he is a horrible kick.

 

[Redleg 41,942]

2 hours ago, Watts the matter said:

 

By AFL standard skills I don't know what you are referring to. I would label the ability to judge a ball in the air as an AFL skill as would not running past the ball or fumbling. 

 

Sounds like ANB is gone then.

[beelzebub 23,390]

8 minutes ago, Redleg said:

Sounds like ANB is gone then.

Can you organise that please... cheers

[Redleg 41,942]

2 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

Can you organise that please... cheers

Don't like picking on the kid, but I blame Goodwin for it.

By continuing to select him when he is completely out of form, he is making him the target of ridicule among the supporters.

Send him back to Casey and play him in the middle to find form.

[beelzebub 23,390]

Casey.. Cranbourne... Creswick....not really that fussed

[Roger Mellie 4,173]

14 minutes ago, Redleg said:

Don't like picking on the kid, but I blame Goodwin for it.

By continuing to select him when he is completely out of form, he is making him the target of ridicule among the supporters.

Send him back to Casey and play him in the middle to find form.

Agreed. I cant for the life of me think why C Wagner couldn't play his pressure role. He has endurance, speed and his disposal is infinitely better. Not sure about his decision making, but it cant be as bad as ANB's at the moment. Make it happen!

[DeeSpencer 26,273]

I think the perfect team needs 1 player with line breaking speed from half back and 1 player with linebreaking speed in the forward line.

Otherwise you just need guys with good speed and quickness on the flanks, good outside run on a wing and now due to the 6-6-6 rule burst speed from the centre square is back in a big way.

I definitely agree there's very few players who combine everything.

I'm not buying the idea that we are horrendously slow but I think we need to be drafting more guys like Salem and Harmes who have AFL bodies that combine speed, strength and endurance. And they have the skills required for their positions. 

In the ideal team you have a heap of great athletes with wonderful skills who can then rotate positions but at the moment we need guys who have the physical traits and football skills to play a role and a game plan that combines that all together.

 

[Demon Dynasty 17,130]

18 hours ago, Watts the matter said:

Ok, clearly you don't watch football so have a look at this and come back to me. If you can find the same for Jayden Hunt I would love to see it. West Coast clearly love Jetta kicking in because he is a horrible kick.

 

Floweresque!

What a joy to watch.  About the closest we have to someone like that at the moment is Jeffy in our forward half, Nev and Fritshkreig in patches (when running hot).

Didn't realise he was that good.  His 45 kicks and ability to see what's on up the field in the heat of the moment, not.to mention evasive skills.  And there's the finish and polish with ball in hand.  Must watch him more closely from here.  Football at its finest.

[Lord Travis 10,793]

7 minutes ago, Rusty Nails said:

Floweresque!

What a joy to watch.  About the closest we have to someone like that at the moment is Jeffy in our forward half, Nev and Fritshkreig in patches (when running hot).

Didn't realise he was that good.  His 45 kicks and ability to see what's on up the field in the heat of the moment, not.to mention evasive skills.  And there's the finish and polish with ball in hand.  Must watch him more closely from here.  Football at its finest.

He’s one of the best kicks in the league and has been for years. He’s just inconsistent and doesn’t get enough of it to display those kicking skills and vision regularly. He kicked 45 goals from the wing back in 2012 while at the Swans though, so can be very damaging. 

Heres another one for the hindsight file. He could’ve been ours!

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/overlooked-jetta-cousin-now-racing-up-the-draft-rankings-20090930-ge84ds.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1