I'm not convinced that J Wagner is a better option. Seems just as slow as Lewis. So while he gets a game, I suspect so does Lewis. Eventually, both need to be superseded, but, unless injury intervenes, I suspect Wagner will be replaced in the team before Lewis.

He's been a good addition in his first 2 years and done what he was brought to do.

It's time

I think Lever’s return will see Lewis transitioned our of the team.  Lever can play Hore’s current role and Hore basically replaces Lewis positionally.  

Lever is a leader and organiser down back and Hore has shown great potential in the first rounds of the year.

So long as Lewis stays match fit I reckon he's got 4 or 5 good games in him (this season)

Which would be a better output than the player who might take his place.  If I'm wrong,  I'm wrong but those who have previously been A graders nearly always go to that level again (periodically)

I would give serious thought to giving Lewis a few more games off completely - 1 in 4 (to rest the bones)  Our depth is poor so he will keep getting picked anyway.

Anyway,  he's not the problem anyway ... nearly the whole list has underperformed to a large degree this season so pointing the finger at 1 player is unfair.  I could name at least a dozen players who need a rocket.

Edited May 9, 20195 yr by Macca

  On 09/05/2019 at 01:10, Macca said:

So long as Lewis stays match fit I reckon he's got 4 or 5 good games in him (this season)

Which would be a better output than the player who might take his place.  If I'm wrong,  I'm wrong but those who have previously been A graders nearly always go to that level again (periodically)

I would give serious thought to giving Lewis a few more games off completely - 1 in 4 (to rest the bones)  Our depth is poor so he will keep getting picked anyway.

Anyway,  he's not the problem anyway ... nearly the whole list has underperformed to a large degree this season so pointing the finger at 1 player is unfair.  I could name at least a dozen players who need a rocket.

Is Lewis on 600-700k?  Gee wiz, we aint getting much from 2.4 million (May, Lever, Lewis) are we?

 

We have dropped ANB who was unlucky I reckon, yet Lewis gets picked on reputation only?

 

Clarko could have used your fence-sitting approach with Roughead, but predictably didn't.  The best coach in the AFL knows a used-by date when he sees it.

 

Lewis will break some sort of record.  I don't think a player of his age, has ever made it beyond a body-of-work that has been the last 4-5 games.

 

  On 09/05/2019 at 11:16, TGR said:

Is Lewis on 600-700k?  Gee wiz, we aint getting much from 2.4 million (May, Lever, Lewis) are we?

 

We have dropped ANB who was unlucky I reckon, yet Lewis gets picked on reputation only?

 

Clarko could have used your fence-sitting approach with Roughead, but predictably didn't.  The best coach in the AFL knows a used-by date when he sees it.

 

Lewis will break some sort of record.  I don't think a player of his age, has ever made it beyond a body-of-work that has been the last 4-5 games.

 

Doubt Lewis is on $600K plus. Maybe 500k for two years plus the third at say $300k. He came to us because we offered three years and we all knew if we got two years that would be great. The fact that he is among the first picked in his third year is not his fault.

  On 09/05/2019 at 11:25, Diamond_Jim said:

Doubt Lewis is on $600K plus. Maybe 500k for two years plus the third at say $300k. He came to us because we offered three years and we all knew if we got two years that would be great. The fact that he is among the first picked in his third year is not his fault.

Yeah DJ ... anyone would think that we've got great depth.  We've won 2 games against 2 slow teams and lost 5 games in poor fashion.

Lewis is the least of our problems as he isn't exactly our future ... I am way more concerned about our myriad of under performing players who should be part of our future.

But lets just blame the senior statesman as if its all his fault.  Dumb, stupid analysis 101. 

Drop Lewis and we are no better off and probably worse off as we'd have a team with even less experience with less leadership. 

We actually need a few more wiser heads in the team and have had to recruit those types of players into the club in recent years after the club went on a fruitless youth campaign for nearly a decade (based on an unhealthy reliance on draft pick numbers)

I'm not sure there's a great deal of practical experience with those not who can't recognise the above ... more so Alpha males who think they know it all but in reality know SFA.

And they repeat themselves over and over again like bloody parrots (coupled with their misplaced anger and hate)

 

Most of you want Lewis out but you neglect to nominate his replacement ... why is that?

Oscar is on the outer here as well.  May & Lever aren't available and most want Frost gone.  Hibberd was also in the gun until last week and Jetta is injured.  And the Wagners aren't stars either.  Is there anyone else?  Hore shows a bit but he's played a handful of games.

So that leaves us with Salem and not much else ... yet we need 6 or 7 backmen as a general rule.  As previously stated,  get rid of Lewis and we're worse off.  He stays and he plays.

Our backline hasn't actually been the problem this season as they've been under siege for the most part ... a midfield with disposal and decision making issues along with a dysfunctional forward line is where our problems lie.

Rule of thumb ... fish rots at the head.  Our gameplan is highly questionable as well.  So blaming the A-end of a problem (backmen under seige) is unintelligent.

The game starts out of the middle in terms of winning the ball and then using the ball properly with a properly functioning forward line ... if that system doesn't work the backmen are in for a hell of a time.  It isn't rocket science.

Footy is a team game where proper analysis should always be focused on all the working parts ... it is never 1 players fault if the whole team is underperforming.  It is in fact everyone's fault ... even the best performed player needs to put his hand up as being part of the problem.

When finger pointing is the norm,  disaster is around the corner.  And we've all seen that happen.

Edited May 9, 20195 yr by Macca

  On 09/05/2019 at 12:39, Macca said:

Our gameplan is highly questionable as well

Ah.. the G word

let's be honest if you still have 70% of your players and you can't beat the GCS it ain't the the players.

We're 9 weeks into the season .. 12 if you count JLT etc... off season ops etc are not an excuse.

A win tomorrow means little... a loss on the other hand

  On 09/05/2019 at 13:11, Diamond_Jim said:

Ah.. the G word

let's be honest if you still have 70% of your players and you can't beat the GCS it ain't the the players.

We're 9 weeks into the season .. 12 if you count JLT etc... off season ops etc are not an excuse.

A win tomorrow means little... a loss on the other hand

If we play to our best,  we'll win DJ.

But we haven't seen our best this season and we're 7 games in.  I am more disappointed from an overall perspective this season than I can remember.

Previously we had a poor list of players who couldn't win but we've got some talent now.

But I will still resist the temptation to point the finger at any particular player ... it's a pointless exercise anyway which ends up not offering any sort of solution.  That player goes and then it becomes the next player ... rinse and repeat. 

As previously stated,  if the team doesn't win it's everyone's fault.  The top clubs are hard on each other that way where as the poor clubs finger point. 

 

Edited May 9, 20195 yr by Macca

  On 09/05/2019 at 12:04, Macca said:

Yeah DJ ... anyone would think that we've got great depth.  We've won 2 games against 2 slow teams and lost 5 games in poor fashion.

Lewis is the least of our problems as he isn't exactly our future ... I am way more concerned about our myriad of under performing players who should be part of our future.

But lets just blame the senior statesman as if its all his fault.  Dumb, stupid analysis 101.

agreed Macca.

  On 09/05/2019 at 12:04, Macca said:

with less leadership. 

We actually need a few more wiser heads in the team and have had to recruit those types of players into the club in recent years after the club went on a fruitless youth campaign for nearly a decade (based on an unhealthy reliance on draft pick numbers) 

disagree Macca...   it wasn't the draft pick numbers or strategy.!

The problem was the types of leaders who remained within the club...  We retired the best REAL leader in Jnr Mac...  and the hardest workers in the club, at that time.

And we kept on soft front runners and pretty footy types...  There's your poor leaders, right in that group...  and the bruise-free culture within.

  On 09/05/2019 at 12:04, Macca said:

I'm not sure there's a great deal of practical experience with those not who can't recognise the above

I think there's not a lot of footy IQ in our current team 22.

  On 09/05/2019 at 13:37, DV8 said:

agreed Macca.

disagree Macca...   it wasn't the draft pick numbers or strategy.!

The problem was the types of leaders who remained within the club...  We retired the best REAL leader in Jnr Mac...  and the hardest workers in the club, at that time.

And we kept on soft front runners and pretty footy types...  There's your poor leaders, right in that group...  and the bruise-free culture within.

I think there's not a lot of footy IQ in our current team 22.

My view on the draft is that it is flawed ... I'd be a draft believer too if I was to disregard the bad news ... but realists aren't wired that way.  It is warts and all.

Carlton did the same by regurgitating failed top end picks and that also failed.  When will these clubs ever learn?

You argued with me something fierce when I called for a total rebuild in early 2012 ... remember that dl?  Your reasoning was "We've already done that"

We had to do it again didn't we?

We had to wait until Roos arrived before the cleanout began but nonetheless,  we had that rebuild.

We don't need another total rebuild this time round but we do need a huge injection of speed and skill.  And that might take 2 or 3 off seasons.  Until then,  the odd finals game is the best we can hope for (best case scenario)

Edited May 9, 20195 yr by Macca

  On 09/05/2019 at 14:11, Macca said:

My view on the draft is that it is flawed ... and I can absolutely prove that assumption with documented data.  The club just thought that the numbering system was correct and we ended up paying a heavy price.

I'd be a draft believer too if I was to disregard the bad news ... but realists aren't wired that way.  It is warts and all.

Carlton did the same by regurgitating failed top end picks and that also failed.  When will these clubs ever learn?

You argued with me something fierce when I called for a total rebuild in early 2012 ... remember that dl?  Your reasoning was "We've already done that"

We had to do it again didn't we?

We had to wait until Roos arrived before the cleanout began but nonetheless,  we had that rebuild.

We don't need another total rebuild this time round but we do need a huge injection of speed and skill.  And that might take 2 or 3 off seasons.  Until then,  the odd finals game is the best we can hope for (best case scenario)

The problem was the types of players we picked back then...  and also the lack of Real leaders 'men',  to aid them in development.

What we did back then,  was 180*  the opposite,  of what we're doing now...  and we getting it right at this time.   Apart from an injuries hiccup,  and the game rules changing.

  On 09/05/2019 at 14:21, DV8 said:

The problem was the types of players we picked back then...  and also the lack of Real leaders 'men',  to aid them in development.

What we did back then,  was 180*  the opposite,  of what we're doing now...  and we getting it right at this time.   Apart from an injuries hiccup,  and the game rules changing.

But you never said that at the time did you ... quite the contrary,  you thought our troubles were over with all the prized first round picks.  You are using a hindsight argument as a bedrock.

At the time,  you never once said that we'd drafted the wrong type of player ... in fact,  I dont recall even seeing 1 person saying that (back then)  Again,  it's being said now but that is way after the event ... zero foresight and lots of hindsight as I read things.

I had no such belief system as I already knew the pitfalls.  That is why you argued against another rebuild in early 2012.  Your faith was unwavering (until it wasn't)

Edited May 9, 20195 yr by Macca

  On 09/05/2019 at 14:32, Macca said:

But you never said that at the time did you ... quite the contrary,  you thought our troubles were over with all the prized first round picks.  You are using a hindsight argument as a bedrock.

Let me go back to re-read what/how i wrote.

OK,  my take on the gyst of your thinking,  was that you were having a shot at the list-management strategies,  of primarily youth/draftees...  that your thinking that strategy was foolish.???

I don't think it was a foolish strategy...  but rather we botched it.   We went about it in a real naive way. this imo was the foolishness showing.

 

I would have kept the Jnr Macs, the Godfrey's (great example - trainer/work ethic),  Wheatley's (great clubman servant),  etc.

... and I would have traded the remaining skilled players off,  for draft picks. ( Green Yze, Davey, Robbo, etc ) Mine would have been a total rebuild-design,  from day dot 

There would have been no need for 'tanks', or 'mismatched positional moves'. we would have genuinely found it difficult to win matches but we would have maintained the hard workers and best leaders of young AFL players.

... Our No1 Best leader of that team,  was Jnr Mc.  Hard working,  Honest,  and a great lead by example captain, putting the body in, without question.  Our Biggest mistake,  retiring him.!

Keeping these lead by examples of hard work, and unflinching courage... were the types to keep...  Not the silky smooth brothers.

 

With this framework, we would have had the real development structures in place,  to show the kids the way to go about things.

This is what I would have added all those draftees into.  We went arz about and bluntly...  we Fluffed it.   I used that word, because we kept the bruise-free types,  over the ones i just mentioned.

The working types would not have got us a razoo on the trade table.

But...  Green,  Yze,  Robbo,  Davey,  Bruse, now these guys would have gotten us decent picks,  or trades we surely could have used,  kicking off our rebuild.

  On 09/05/2019 at 14:32, Macca said:

I dont recall even seeing 1 person saying that (back then)  Again,  it's being said now but that is way after the event ... zero foresight and lots of hindsight as I read things.

I had no such belief system

I recall clearly being against the Mortons and Bennells from day dot in their first club games.  they would not make physical contact to tackle etc.  I was yelling at them screaming at them over the fence to chase tackle to be more physical.

And especially  'Nev',  was one of my favs from early in his first season.

Going back to the recruitment of Miller, when Daniher wanted to recruit a hard physical key posi' player...  so they got Miller.  ???   I was saying back then,  that one hard players does not a team make...  and dit did not.

This was Danihers thinking back then.  He didn't rate the tougher hard players that Sheedy banked on. 

That was a huge mistake for Melbourne.  Not playing with anywhere near enough venom,  vigor,  and  plain aggression.

 

Thankfully Todd Viney has brought back the  'Demon',   to this club.

.

Lewis has been a terrific player and good value for the Dees last two years.

But unfortunately all good things come to an end, he must help with keeping our backline structure, as he is struggling. As previously mentioned once Lever comes back, hard to see a spot for Lewis.

Still thanks for two years of helping the team learn what it takes to play finals.

  On 09/05/2019 at 16:19, DV8 said:

OK,  my take on the gyst of your thinking,  was that you were having a shot at the list-management strategies,  of primarily youth/draftees...  that your thinking that strategy was foolish.???

I don't think it was a foolish strategy...  but rather we botched it.   We went about it in a real naive way. this imo was the foolishness showing.

 

I would have kept the Jnr Macs, the Godfrey's (great example - trainer/work ethic),  Wheatley's (great clubman servant),  etc.

... and I would have traded the remaining skilled players off,  for draft picks. ( Green Yze, Davey, Robbo, etc ) Mine would have been a total rebuild-design,  from day dot 

There would have been no need for 'tanks', or 'mismatched positional moves'. we would have genuinely found it difficult to win matches but we would have maintained the hard workers and best leaders of young AFL players.

... Our No1 Best leader of that team,  was Jnr Mc.  Hard working,  Honest,  and a great lead by example captain, putting the body in, without question.  Our Biggest mistake,  retiring him.!

Keeping these lead by examples of hard work, and unflinching courage... were the types to keep...  Not the silky smooth brothers.

 

With this framework, we would have had the real development structures in place,  to show the kids the way to go about things.

This is what I would have added all those draftees into.  We went arz about and bluntly...  we Fluffed it.   I used that word, because we kept the bruise-free types,  over the ones i just mentioned.

The working types would not have got us a razoo on the trade table.

But...  Green,  Yze,  Robbo,  Davey,  Bruse, now these guys would have gotten us decent picks,  or trades we surely could have used,  kicking off our rebuild.

Drafting is flawed ... you can say we botched it but that is a lot like many here calling a trade a bust because a player gets injured.  More lunacy.

The reality is that many here just don't get it.  They like to have their moan and before you know it group-think takes over.

The myth becomes fact. 

None of the first round draft picks back then were called busts at the time ... not from you either so stop talking rot.

It all came later ... in hindsigjt.  And that is fact.  As per usual,  I am just keeping it real.

Any other rralists out there who want to have a go?

Edited May 9, 20195 yr by Macca

  On 09/05/2019 at 12:39, Macca said:

Most of you want Lewis out but you neglect to nominate his replacement .

I would replace him with Sparrow.

I think he is more suited as a small/medium defender than midfielder.

He doesn't find the ball enough as a mid but has a lot of good attributes we need in defence.

I see him being similar to Hardwick at the Hawks.

The sooner we get game time into him the better.

  On 09/05/2019 at 22:20, rjay said:

I would replace him with Sparrow.

I think he is more suited as a small/medium defender than midfielder.

He doesn't find the ball enough as a mid but has a lot of good attributes we need in defence.

I see him being similar to Hardwick at the Hawks.

The sooner we get game time into him the better.

Thought Hardwick held his own very well in a (generally) poor backline last week.

Strong as in the one on ones and took some nice goal saving contested  marks.

  On 09/05/2019 at 23:27, Rusty Nails said:

Thought Hardwick held his own very well in a (generally) poor backline last week.

Strong as in the one on ones and took some nice goal saving contested  marks.

Runner up last year in their B&F...

Came to Hawthorn as a small forward.

Sometimes you need to look at what the player brings.

I think if Sparrow is going to make it, it will be as a defender...

  On 09/05/2019 at 22:20, rjay said:

I would replace him with Sparrow.

I think he is more suited as a small/medium defender than midfielder.

He doesn't find the ball enough as a mid but has a lot of good attributes we need in defence.

I see him being similar to Hardwick at the Hawks.

The sooner we get game time into him the better.

So who are your 7 defenders ... name them all if you can rjay as we often play 1 more back

Are you going to name Frost?  ha ha

  On 10/05/2019 at 02:03, Macca said:

 

Are you going to name Frost?  ha ha

You laugh at Frost, yet defend the superannuant to the hilt.  Speaks volumes.

 

While you're at it, email Clarkson and tell him he was a fool for letting Lewis go, and a bigger fool for not picking Roughead on reputation.

 

And while I am at it, as I said then, Watts could have easily played the easy +1 role that Lewis played in 17 and 18.  Watts wouldn't have gone to his knees in a heartbeat, and he wouldn't have given away needless 50's at crucial times.  Watts wouldn't have blamed others either when it hit the fan.  Most importantly, Watts wouldn't have been worst on ground in our most important game (Preliminary Final) in the last 15 years.

 

Ms. Lewis, I applaud your loyalty, but not your logic.

 

 

 

 

  On 10/05/2019 at 04:30, TGR said:

You laugh at Frost, yet defend the superannuant to the hilt.  Speaks volumes.

 

While you're at it, email Clarkson and tell him he was a fool for letting Lewis go, and a bigger fool for not picking Roughead on reputation.

 

And while I am at it, as I said then, Watts could have easily played the easy +1 role that Lewis played in 17 and 18.  Watts wouldn't have gone to his knees in a heartbeat, and he wouldn't have given away needless 50's at crucial times.  Watts wouldn't have blamed others either when it hit the fan.  Most importantly, Watts wouldn't have been worst on ground in our most important game (Preliminary Final) in the last 15 years.

 

Ms. Lewis, I applaud your loyalty, but not your logic.

 

 

 

 

Yawn.