1 hour ago, Bimbo said:

In admitting I am not the sharpest tool in the Demonland thread, I apologise for causing the result of the poll to be skewed.  I answered the question raised by the thread title rather than that posed by the poll.  

It now has major importance for both sides of the question as moving my vote to the no's, means the result is now tied 50/50 and he can therefore stay as captain.

If i had the slightest idea how to change the vote (and cared enough) I would.

Good God!  I just realised I did the same thing!

The thread title is: 'Should Jones remain captain?' and I voted YES.

I didn't read the Poll question carefully and now realise i voted for Jones to relinquish the co-captaincy.

 

Whoops.

9 minutes ago, The Chazz said:

I'm presuming so.  Would imagine that the playing group would have some say in it?  I may be wrong.

Point is, you highlighted that because 50% of people are voting to keep Jones as co-captain, that it's hardly an endorsement for the bloke.  I'll flip it over - the fact that 50% want him to remain in the post means that said 50% aren't necessarily satisfied that Viney is ready to go it alone.

While I am in favour of Jones remaining in the role, I really have no care.  Mainly because either way you lean, we are in no position to know the full extent of the role.  We are exposed to what we see on the ground, and what we hear in press conferences.  We don't have ears in the huddles at training, in the dressing room, in the midfield meetings after an opposition goal, etc, etc.

If Jones initiates the stepping down, then that's fine by me.  From the very limited exposure we have, I don't see the need for him to do that.  If he is tapped on the shoulder, I hope it doesn't throw a bad egg amongst this culture we are trying to create (that egg could also come from other senior members of the playing group, and not driven by Jones).

You presume; then argue as fact. Sorry not the case

Goodwin appoints co captains

also

Quite clear this was a decision by the club, not the players, as if it really ever would be. Tails dont wag dogs

The Poll is about Jones's role. 50% suggest he ought not. I don't see the question about Viney.

You are correct though , we have no say in it.. This is where we can comment though. Cheers

I just realised the name of the thread and the poll are opposite, hence my vote is actually opposite of what I wanted.

EDIT: I just saw others pointed this out.

Edited September 27, 20178 yr by Clint Bizkit

6 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

You presume; then argue as fact. Sorry not the case

Goodwin appoints co captains

also

Quite clear this was a decision by the club, not the players, as if it really ever would be. Tails dont wag dogs

The Poll is about Jones's role. 50% suggest he ought not. I don't see the question about Viney.

You are correct though , we have no say in it.. This is where we can comment though. Cheers

Thanks for posting those links.  As I said, I presumed that the decision had the playing group having some say in.  Clearly not.

And another "thank you" for the links that gave us this...

“This is the model we think we might have for a number of years going forward,” Goodwin said. “This model could last for three, four or five years; it could last for ten years.”

“We are not sold on this being a one-year thing. I’ve seen the model work at other clubs ... we feel we have the right two guys for the now, and for the future.”

So, based on how it would've been "sold" to Jones, does anyone really think he will be stepping down in 2018?

 

1 minute ago, The Chazz said:

 

So, based on how it would've been "sold" to Jones, does anyone really think he will be stepping down in 2018?

 

Though I do understand the mechanics of may or may not be possible, thats not actually the question the OP proffers.

Its ask should he.   Not will he, not can he..but it is asking us, Demonlanders what we think.

I think he should

3 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

Though I do understand the mechanics of may or may not be possible, thats not actually the question the OP proffers.

Its ask should he.   Not will he, not can he..but it is asking us, Demonlanders what we think.

I think he should

Remain or relinquish?

2 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

Though I do understand the mechanics of may or may not be possible, thats not actually the question the OP proffers.

Its ask should he.   Not will he, not can he..but it is asking us, Demonlanders what we think.

I think he should

Thanks for that clarification.

So you are basing your decision on that small window of about 2 1/2 hours per week, and form this view with such certainty.  Says more about those that think he should, more so than those that don't.

4 minutes ago, ManDee said:

Remain or relinquish?

I think he should step down. Thats my answer to the question.  There's no facility really for that to happen though as currently the coach of the moment prefers the dual cap model. My opinion is that is a flawed model. Do we have Co coaches ? No we have many but only ONE senior . So ought be with captaincy imho.

Its all rather moot but its an avenue for comment by us.

1 minute ago, The Chazz said:

Thanks for that clarification.

So you are basing your decision on that small window of about 2 1/2 hours per week, and form this view with such certainty.  Says more about those that think he should, more so than those that don't.

It's that 2-1/2 hours as you put it when push becomes shove. When theory becomes practice ...when anything actually matters.. We don't get graded or awarded premiership points for any other occasion. So as that's when it matters most; YEP !!

11 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

It's that 2-1/2 hours as you put it when push becomes shove. When theory becomes practice ...when anything actually matters.. We don't get graded or awarded premiership points for any other occasion. So as that's when it matters most; YEP !!

Whatever happens in those 2-1/2 hours is the icing on whatever else happened which is our case is usually not much.

For every Hodge and Selwood that have often dragged their team across the line to win a game single handedly, there are players like Nick Maxwell, Tom Harley, Easton Wood/Bob Murphy, Tex Walker that have captained their sides to premierships by leading their sides in totally different ways to the aforementioned players.

Trent Cotchin has played two cracking finals, but how often has his leadership been questioned in the past?  Now he's some sort of messiah.

1 hour ago, The Chazz said:

For every Hodge and Selwood that have often dragged their team across the line to win a game single handedly, there are players like Nick Maxwell, Tom Harley, Easton Wood/Bob Murphy, Tex Walker that have captained their sides to premierships by leading their sides in totally different ways to the aforementioned players.

Trent Cotchin has played two cracking finals, but how often has his leadership been questioned in the past?  Now he's some sort of messiah.

Good Captains thrive in September pressure. Infact the really good Captains help create that intense pressure to break games open. 

I can see Jack Viney doing just that in time

Nathan Jones i cannot...

What I find interesting about this poll is that many people, me included, were slightly unsure of the need to appoint Viney as a Co-Captain at the time, such was Jones' strangle hold on the Captaincy. Viney, it was thought, would make a good VC.

IMO Viney did a great job and completely vindicated Goodwin's decision. I like the idea of those two sharing duties for at least another year though. Jones is still absolute relevant as a Captain of this club.

 

Edited September 27, 20178 yr by Ron Burgundy

35 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Good Captains thrive in September pressure. Infact the really good Captains help create that intense pressure to break games open. 

I can see Jack Viney doing just that in time

Nathan Jones i cannot...

Hopefully we'll find out for sure next year!

One thing we do know, is that in our biggest wins of the last few years (Geelong 2015, Hawthorn 2016, Adelaide 2017) Jones has played very well.

Just now, TeamPlayedFine39 said:

Hopefully we'll find out for sure next year!

One thing we do know, is that in our biggest wins of the last few years (Geelong 2015, Hawthorn 2016, Adelaide 2017) Jones has played very well.

And what happened the week after ‘39?

that also tells us a lot. 

This club has had a lack of continuity for decades, win a big game and then fall over once expectation is generated. 

I don’t think Jones is mentally strong enough to right that sickness. 

I wish he was, this is not a personal attack at all. 

But what happened in Round 23 this year was so predictable and it is why i was very concerned when the club made that video of Jones gearing up for the finals and showing it in July/ August. 

We hadn’t done the work yet. 

A video like that gets shown this week....

14 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

And what happened the week after ‘39?

that also tells us a lot. 

This club has had a lack of continuity for decades, win a big game and then fall over once expectation is generated. 

I don’t think Jones is mentally strong enough to right that sickness. 

I wish he was, this is not a personal attack at all. 

But what happened in Round 23 this year was so predictable and it is why i was very concerned when the club made that video of Jones gearing up for the finals and showing it in July/ August. 

We hadn’t done the work yet. 

A video like that gets shown this week....

 

2015 vs WCE .    29 disposals, 5 tackles, 6 I50s

2016 vs Port .    29 disposals, 1 goal, 5 tackles, 2 I50s

2017 vs Nth .    25 disposals, 2 goal, 6 tackles, 10 I50s

 

He's a very, very consistent contributor.  I fail to see how our loses are placed at his feet, while others are avoiding any blame.

FWIW, Viney had 19, 17 and 21 disposals in the corresponding games.  If anything, it's Viney that isn't following-up the week after a big win.

 

 

 

 

10 minutes ago, TeamPlayedFine39 said:

 

2015 vs WCE .    29 disposals, 5 tackles, 6 I50s

2016 vs Port .    29 disposals, 1 goal, 5 tackles, 2 I50s

2017 vs Nth .    25 disposals, 2 goal, 6 tackles, 10 I50s

 

He's a very, very consistent contributor.  I fail to see how our loses are placed at his feet, while others are avoiding any blame.

FWIW, Viney had 19, 17 and 21 disposals in the corresponding games.  If anything, it's Viney that isn't following-up the week after a big win.

 

 

 

 

And as I mentioned yesterday, that loss in Hobart, Viney played and didn't get in the best 6 Melbourne players on the ground, and Jones didn't play at all.

People are questioning Jones' leadership on this thread/forum, yet are frothing over what Viney brings.  Yet in the game that was easily our worst loss for the year, Viney is immune to any criticism of leadership whatsoever.  Remarkable.

On 25/09/2017 at 11:59 PM, SFebey said:

What does Jones add to Viney that Viney doesn't have? My answer is nothing. From the grandstand, Jones adds nothing on-field and Viney has already shown what and when to stand up and inspire. Personally I'd let Viney take the reigns now, he's a rare breed who has no problems shouldering the load IMO. I'm far from impressed with Jones' leadership.

I haven't read thru this whole thread, so this may have been said, but I would add the following.... jones does a pretty good job of public speaking, no frills, but honest and articulate,  not sure that Viney has those skills or the potential to acquire them. 

I love both players, jones for what he's been thru and staying loyal and jack for his love for the club and tenacity. Please remind me when Viney has sufficiently inspired the team to make the difference between winning and losing- port Adelaide game excepted.

Just now, demondame said:

I haven't read thru this whole thread, so this may have been said, but I would add the following.... jones does a pretty good job of public speaking, no frills, but honest and articulate,  not sure that Viney has those skills or the potential to acquire them. 

I love both players, jones for what he's been thru and staying loyal and jack for his love for the club and tenacity. Please remind me when Viney has sufficiently inspired the team to make the difference between winning and losing- port Adelaide game excepted.

Oh and I agree that leadership overall continues to be deficient for the Dees 

55 minutes ago, TeamPlayedFine39 said:

 

2015 vs WCE .    29 disposals, 5 tackles, 6 I50s

2016 vs Port .    29 disposals, 1 goal, 5 tackles, 2 I50s

2017 vs Nth .    25 disposals, 2 goal, 6 tackles, 10 I50s

 

He's a very, very consistent contributor.  I fail to see how our loses are placed at his feet, while others are avoiding any blame.

FWIW, Viney had 19, 17 and 21 disposals in the corresponding games.  If anything, it's Viney that isn't following-up the week after a big win.

 

 

 

 

It’s not always just the stats ‘39

a lot of Jones kicks are turnovers, i wish they weren’t. 

28 minutes ago, demondame said:

I haven't read thru this whole thread, so this may have been said, but I would add the following.... jones does a pretty good job of public speaking, no frills, but honest and articulate,  not sure that Viney has those skills or the potential to acquire them. 

I love both players, jones for what he's been thru and staying loyal and jack for his love for the club and tenacity. Please remind me when Viney has sufficiently inspired the team to make the difference between winning and losing- port Adelaide game excepted.

West Coast this year...

42 minutes ago, demondame said:

I haven't read thru this whole thread, so this may have been said, but I would add the following.... jones does a pretty good job of public speaking, no frills, but honest and articulate,  not sure that Viney has those skills or the potential to acquire them. 

I love both players, jones for what he's been thru and staying loyal and jack for his love for the club and tenacity. Please remind me when Viney has sufficiently inspired the team to make the difference between winning and losing- port Adelaide game excepted.

I prefer a leader to be an effective leader on the field and not just a mouthpiece.

Edited September 27, 20178 yr by america de cali

This is the MFC Messiah theory in full force.

On field (and off field) leadership is about more than 1 guy. 

The co captains model is fine and we should continue with it. 

Both Jones and Viney had important games where they led from the front this year, including late in game moments. Both had games where they went missing. 

I can see Viney more than Jones having the demonstrative physical take over of a big game like Cotchin is somehow experiencing right now but that really doesn't mean much in the scheme of things. Cotchin also played 4 years of ordinary footy with the captaincy and I don't want to saddle Viney with that responsibility either!

7 hours ago, Clint Bizkit said:

I just realised the name of the thread and the poll are opposite, hence my vote is actually opposite of what I wanted.

EDIT: I just saw others pointed this out.

Me too!

1 hour ago, Sigil said:

Me too!

This now makes 4 demiwits who voted for Jones to relinquish his captaincy when not meaning to.  

That would make 67 for him to remain against 52 to go.  56% to 44%.  

If such an important announcement comes from Demonland, he wont even need cross bench support and his position is safe for next year.