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On form, Jones has got it over Sylvia, and with a full pre-season under his belt (especially with the work he's doing at the moment with Williams and Brock), Jones will be adding a lot more value to the side vs St Kilda come round one.

As for Barts, i've been advised that it is EXTREMELY unlikely he'll be up for round 1. It's best to lower expectations, coz the word is that it might take a few weeks into the H&A season before we see him again. The injury has been far more complicated than first understood.

I didn't know that. That is disappointing we need Bartram back ASAP now that I know that then the team should not change from the side that last played the Saints. I would then put P.J as an emergency.

I have more expectations on Sylvia if Sylvia is not in our best 22 by rnd 1 then he has problems. Jones has plenty of time to develop Sylvia's time has to be now but if you're right about Bartram then both of them should play.

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Assuming everyone is fully fit:

B. Whelan Carroll Holland

HB. Bartram Rivers Bell

C. Johnstone McLean Moloney

HF. Green Miller Bate

F. Davey Neitz Robertson

R. White Bruce McDonald

Int. P.Johnson, Sylvia, Pickett, Yze

Sandy 1sts:

B. Frawley Lamb Warnock

HB. Brown Ferguson Buckley

C. C.Johnson Jones Liddell

HF. Crowe Dunn Gallagher

F. Newton Sautner Poyas

R. Jamar Summers Godfrey

Int from Petterd, Garland, Weetra, Wheatley, Biddlecombe, Valenti, Hayes, Corrigan, Bizzell

Nice depth

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Foolish stuff this team prediction business so far out from the season proper. Let me have a crack!

FF: Green Neitz Robbo

CHF: C Johnson Miller Dunn

C: Bate McLean Davey

CHB: Bell Holland Bruce

FB: Rivers Carroll Whelan

Foll: White McDonald Johnstone

Int: Jamar Jones Sylvia Pickett

Emerg: Warnock Ward Moloney

That's a very top heavy half forward line, Vibes. Apparently CJ has been training with the backs, so I doubt he'll line up there.

Also, for those including Ward, I pray you're wrong. Whilst he had a very good year in 06, I know that we'll remain an average team if players of his ilk are in our 'best 22' - not that I've ever seen a best 22 as injuries always prevent such an occurence.

Someone had "apologies" to Bartram. Assuming they weren't taking his injury into account as an apology wouldn't be necessary, I can't believe how he'd be omitted. He warranted selection in all 22 H&A games until injured in his last match. He brought vigour, pace, determination, and excellent negating abilities.

Jones missed one posters team. I also find this bemusing. As we move forward, if guys like Jones aren't in the team we really are treading water. Same with Sylvia when he's over his injury - he's a definite. In his last 6 games Jones was in our top 2 clearance players. That's a commodity I don't want languishing at Sandy.

I don't want to seem to be carping without even posting my own team, but they were some of my initial observations. If requested I'll post a team, but like many silently reading, I too think it's premature. That said, I'll put up if requested.

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Miller clearly deserves a shot at showing his game against Freo will become the rule rather than the exception. Dunn impresses me and can play on a flank while he's still a little under-sized. If I had to leave one of the key position forwards out it would probably be Robbo. In my eyes the pressure is right on him. Daniher seems to be placing more and more emphasis on defensive pressure within the forward 50 and as a consequence Robbo might start to struggle to get a run. Dunn is the future and with Davey playing more and more up the field, I'd like to see Chris Johnson playing the O'Keefe type forward role that others have alluded to on this site. This may well be the position Sylvia fills in 07 given his on-going injury concerns. Not sure he'll have the motor to play permanently in the middle.

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... I'd like to see Chris Johnson playing the O'Keefe type forward role that others have alluded to on this site. This may well be the position Sylvia fills in 07 given his on-going injury concerns. Not sure he'll have the motor to play permanently in the middle.

O'Keefe would do more kms than a guy who rotates between midfield and bench...

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Miller clearly deserves a shot at showing his game against Freo will become the rule rather than the exception. Dunn impresses me and can play on a flank while he's still a little under-sized. If I had to leave one of the key position forwards out it would probably be Robbo. In my eyes the pressure is right on him. Daniher seems to be placing more and more emphasis on defensive pressure within the forward 50 and as a consequence Robbo might start to struggle to get a run. Dunn is the future and with Davey playing more and more up the field, I'd like to see Chris Johnson playing the O'Keefe type forward role that others have alluded to on this site. This may well be the position Sylvia fills in 07 given his on-going injury concerns. Not sure he'll have the motor to play permanently in the middle.

I don't know if Sylvia has the smarts for that role. It requires quite a bit of thinking and knowing where to run, when to push hard up the ground into defence, when to break and run into space forward of the ball, etc.

At this stage I think Sylvia will best serve us as a ferocious animal in the middle of the park or very deep in the forward line where he can use his power and vertical leap.

He was recruited as a "competitive beast" (I remember that quote from his former coach) and that's what he needs to bring to the side; rather than intelligent movement up and down the ground.

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Absolutely nothing to do with anything, but my sister was taught by Laurie Mithen at Lloyd St. State School, Malvern, in primary school in 1959 (Grade 1, I think).

The family's still very proud, and she now has 4 hardened Dees supporters as kids.

Part of the reason for the user name. I went to Lloyd Street ... Grade 1 in 1957. 2 hardened Dees supporters as kids.

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As for Barts, i've been advised that it is EXTREMELY unlikely he'll be up for round 1. It's best to lower expectations, coz the word is that it might take a few weeks into the H&A season before we see him again. The injury has been far more complicated than first understood.

That's really disappointing, but thank you for informing us.

He is a really important part of the team, and we could have used his services to tag one of the Saints' midfielders. Amazing to think that a year ago he was some skinny kid nobody expected to see for a couple of seasons, and now he is so highly regarded.

Furthermore, him, Jones, Sylvia Bate and Bell should all now be firmly in our best 22 and selected every week given they are fit to play. They may struggle occasionally, but it'll pay off (maybe as soon as September 2007). We really can't afford to keep holding on to players who are past it.

IMO, there are only a handful of positions that will be decided during pre-season and the NAB cup. They are:

- CHF/ 3rd tall (will it be Miller at CHF, will Dunn be used as a third tall, or are we going to use one of PJ/Jamar when they aren't rucking?)

- Ruck (PJ or Jamar to support White, or both? Plus how much ruck time for each)

- Third tall (Holland, Frawley or Warnock? Or perhaps a weekly proposition depending on who we play)

- HBF (Bell, Ward, CJ, or perhaps a surprise like Petterd/ Frawley)

The rest of the positions are set; including FB (Carroll), CHB (Rivers), FF (Neitz) & Rovers (McLean, Junior, Moloney, Bartram, Bate, Sylvia etc...).

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The guy just doesn't excite me,

To date, I've seen him play at least 1 ripper game in the AFL, and plenty of sensational games in the VFL. As a relatively young, relatively skinny tallish player I have always been willing to give him more time than many others of a similar age. Yes, he's not done anything like Green/Bruce/Davey at a similar age, but who says he absolutely has to? I do share your sentiments about his future to a degree though. I reckon if he plays a few strong matches this season, he'll certainly be on our list in 2008. No-one expects him to star in 2007. But if he repeats his exploits of 2006 over the next 12 months he's in trouble.

Dunn has shown more than Miller has and deserves to be named in round 1.

That's a big call. Dunn kicked either 1 or 2 goals in all but 1 or 2 matches last season. So far he hasn't been even close to BOG in any of his games, and he's played 11. Miller has played at least 1 strong season, has starred in a number of matches including a final (albeit a losing one), and was once upon a time regarded highly enough to be in the leadership group. We all know how below par his 2006 was, particularly for a player of his age and experience, but he's still a lot further on than Dunn, despite having less poential and skill. I reckon a more sensible call would be to say if they both play 4 pre-season matches, and one plays clearly better than the other, pick him and drop the crap one. If it wasn't for a few horrendous dropped marks, people would have rated Miller's final against the Saints fairly highly. He certainly proved he likes playing against them.

That said, I'll put up if requested.

Let's hear it.

As for my lineup... for round 1 assuming Bartram and Moloney are out.

B: Whelan Carroll Holland

HB: Bell Rivers Ward

C: Green McLean Bate

HF: Pickett Miller Sylvia

F: Davey Neitz Robertson

Ruck: White Bruce McDonald

Int: Jamar, Yze, Jones, Johnstone

emer: Brown/Petterd (small defender), Ferguson/Warnock (tall defender), Wheatley/CJ (mid-defender, utility)

Why?

Holland has opponents at the Saints. Rivers will be busy with Reiwoldt for 120 minutes, and Carroll can't take BOTH Kosi and Gehrig. Oh, and Ferguson, Bizzell and Frawley are either too young, too old or aren't good enough. Warnock is the closest thing to a guy who can give him a run for his money, and by season's end, he may have taken his spot permanently.

I saw enough from Bell late last year to select him, pending a solid pre-season and clean bill of health (no OP).

Ward only just ahead of a whole host of other guys. He and Holland could find themselves friendless very quickly if any of about 10 players have blinders in the NAB cup.

I love the idea of Bate on a wing. If he starts there with Green on the opposite one, then Trav plays off the bench. I believe he's always played his best footy this way, and am keen for him to continue.

I'm still behind Col. For now. But he and Miller are on shaky ground. Some things never change.

Jamar second ruck. Jones is the future but is almost solely a midfielder, so he starts on the bench. Yze is a hard one to get behind. It'll be interesting. I reckon he's going to have to insist to play the NAB cup. If he asks to miss a game or two because he's old, Petterd or others may overtake him very quickly. He needs to play and play well, or else.

As for the walking wounded. Bartram would battle for a spot on the bench with Yze and Jones if fit, but if there's any doubt, we've gotta go with the fit bloke(s) this early in the season. Moloney is probably just outside all 3 of those guys, since many are saying we won't see him until mid-year, in which case he'd have missed enough footy to need some time at Sandy to remember his brilliance. He and Bartram will be back, but not yet.

As Hannabal says, this is all a bit pointless, so we'll wait until mid-march to get on this properly. At the moment we're just all telling everyone who our favourites are.

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What about when miller slapped it down to akermanis in front of the goals?...that sort of play is typical miller and he has no tools to make it at an afl level. I cant believe people think that Dunn should have got a best on ground performance in one of his 11 games. Your expectations are wayyyyyy too high! Dunn kicks goals, miller doesnt. Miller cannot handball, kick or take contested marks. All he does is lead to ineffective areas of the ground and end up stuffing it up anyway. I actually think half the people on this forum have more football talent than miller. He is a perfect example that if you have the perfect footballing body and physique than you are 90% of the way to getting put on a list.

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What about when miller slapped it down to akermanis in front of the goals?...that sort of play is typical miller and he has no tools to make it at an afl level. I cant believe people think that Dunn should have got a best on ground performance in one of his 11 games. Your expectations are wayyyyyy too high! Dunn kicks goals, miller doesnt. Miller cannot handball, kick or take contested marks. All he does is lead to ineffective areas of the ground and end up stuffing it up anyway. I actually think half the people on this forum have more football talent than miller. He is a perfect example that if you have the perfect footballing body and physique than you are 90% of the way to getting put on a list.

Yep. He made a blue. No doubt about that, he made a pretty stupid decision. But I'm not interested in using a single event to sum up a player unless it's indicative of the way he plays, or an error he makes consistently, that costs us premiership points. He was fairly filthy at himself, and I reckon not a little shocked that he did it. Before, and since, I don't recall him making as bad a mistake as that. But that's all beside the point.

How does one error categorise a player as having "no tools to make it as an AFL player"? I happen to agree that as a player Dunn will most likely prove to be ten times the player Miller is, but as yet, we've not seen it in the flesh, on match day.

My expectations are way too high? Actually, I HAD no expectations of him. How many AFL CHFs make ANY impression in their first 2 years? I'm thrilled that he's played 10 games and shown good signs, but as yet he's not monstered a single one of them. I NEVER said I expected him to, he's still far too green. But the fact remains he's not there yet. I expect Miller, at his age and level of development, to have made a big name for himself. It seems he may not get as far as we'd like but FOR SEASON 2007, he's more likely to cope, since he's had longer to learn, and is far more developed physically, among other things. Yes Dunn kicks goals, but then does Dunn provide as big a physical presence? Would he take the amount of marks this coming season that Miller has shown he's capable of?

For the record, I did say that after the pre-season we may have a clearer idea as to where Dunn's development lies. If he shares the CHF duties with Miller and shows him up, then fine, play Miller as Dunn's back-up, and if that works all year, then look to trade Brad if necessary. I fully agree that at this stage Miller's weaknesses define him, not his strengths. I nearly wrote him off when he dropped that absolute sitter about 15 metres out against the Saints in the 3rd quarter of that elimination final. Dunn would certainly have made the ground up, and probably flown through the air, taking it comfortably, then slot it through with his eyes closed. You'll hear no argument from me that odds on, Dunn will be the remembered the better player when both are gone.

I can see this debate will rage on and on this year, and while usually I'm behind playing the younger guys over the older ones who have shown they don't have what it takes, I just can't see Dunn taking 14 marks in a final in Perth. I reckon he just needs one more season as an understudy, perhaps playing the CHF role in tandem (against taller sides, where Brad's services may be needed elsewhere) or even on his own in some matches (anything at the SCG, where Miller will be at FB). Let's not forget that CHF is the hardest part of the ground to play on, and that he hasn't even played a full match as a genuine CHF yet.

How's this for you Freak? Ask me again after the NAB cup who I've pencilled in. When we see how they both go, we'll tear each other a new one then eh?

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With our list now giving us a few tall defender options I hope that we never see Miller back there again. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Miller only join in full preseason training late last year due to OP or some other injury.

I like the idea of the three talls in our forward line Miller playing his usual lead up role Dunn working around the 50m arc with Neita behind him, Robbo floating around Davey on the ground crumbing front and square and not up on the wing, Pickett or Yze rotating through the other spot both extremely dangerous on their day, try stopping that forward line.

Ward should only be a back up option only, it is time for Bell or CJ to play ahead of him.

Jones, this guy will be a big player in our midfield this year, he was so impressive last season that I can't wait to see him play in 2007.

The hardest decision is if to play Holland, Bizz, Ferguson, Warnock or Frawley. Holland got smashed against the saints last year, the only way I would play him if he can play on Gardiner.

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.....

DM,

Your reasoned response to Freak's anti Miller rant provides his comments a compliment they dont deserve.

His repetitive and misguided warblings on Miller merely show up the author not the subject.

Miller is not a great footballer by any stretch and I dont believe he will be a messiah CHF that some posters have dreamed and over enthused about. However, he is not the incompetent villain that Freak erroneously condemns. He is an honest hardworking ordinary footballer with important limitations in his game.

However, Miller will be in his sixth year of football and needs to determine that he can consistently perform at AFL level. many will laud his Freo game and say how good it was and he should never be moved from CHF. However, for a player who picked up 19 possessions and took 14 marks his contribution and impact on the game was inconsequential. And that the rub with Miller he will never be more than at best a good ordinary footballer.

The comparison to Dunn is not valid and bound to disadvantage the 19 yo with only 11 games under his belt. I dont think they are necessarily competing for the same spot and I dont necessarily buy the Dunn will have to earn a spot on a flank to Miller.

I think both have to earn their position whereever it be on the ground. But I will say Dunn has a great set of football skills and I would not think it will be long before Dunn's star rises higher than Miller's whose star has plateaued and I dont see rising much further.

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On form, Jones has got it over Sylvia, and with a full pre-season under his belt (especially with the work he's doing at the moment with Williams and Brock), Jones will be adding a lot more value to the side vs St Kilda come round one.

Jones is welded in my best 22.

As for Barts, i've been advised that it is EXTREMELY unlikely he'll be up for round 1. It's best to lower expectations, coz the word is that it might take a few weeks into the H&A season before we see him again. The injury has been far more complicated than first understood.

That's a long term worry since his main attribute is his running ability.

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Also, for those including Ward, I pray you're wrong. Whilst he had a very good year in 06, I know that we'll remain an average team if players of his ilk are in our 'best 22' - not that I've ever seen a best 22 as injuries always prevent such an occurence.

I don't want to seem to be carping without even posting my own team, but they were some of my initial observations. If requested I'll post a team, but like many silently reading, I too think it's premature. That said, I'll put up if requested.

Can I make that request for you to put up your 22??

I'm pretty sure Ward will be in the team come round 1 - provided he has a servicable NAB Cup. Last year he got a round 1 gig with just 1 pre-season game under his belt. Ward, Bizzel, Wheatley and Brown will be fighting for the 1 (veteran) spot in our halfback line for the season opener I would think.

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I mean I know Miller isnt the worst player in the AFL, but how he got into the LEADERSHIP group is just an embarrassment. I gave an example which was typical of him, therefore im not summing him up purely on that decision. When he marks the ball and turns around to give the handball he has missed the target from about a metre away several times. I could go on but will not.

How is this for a stat: In 11 home and away games Dunn has kicked 13 goals.

In 2005 AND 2006 Miller has kicked a TOTAL of 8 goals.

Both are forwards and forwards must kick goals.

Also Miller played 15 games last season. In 5 of those games he achieved 8 possessions or under and 7 games with 10 possessions or under...and with substantial game time in each :wacko:

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Also Miller played 15 games last season. In 5 of those games he achieved 8 possessions or under and 7 games with 10 possessions or under...and with substantial game time in each :wacko:

How many of those games were spend in the backline?

How much do you know about his restricted pre-season and OP?

You want to talk about mistakes that are symptomatic of a player, how about Sylvia taking a speccy (that never was) and nearly killing Ferguson earlier in the year? I think we should hold onto that moment of stupidity and forever condemn him for it. :rolleyes:

He had a horrible season, I'm sure he'll tell you that himself, but every single player goes through that. Given his injuries and off-field issues, he can be forgiven.

I'd like to see his stats after a full season where he is fully fit and playing where he is best suited, up forward.

Dunn is an entirely different player, and odds are he'll be an entirely better one too. That's good, since they both play for our team.

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It's not what I expect to happen but MY current best 22 assuming no injuries:

B: Whelan Carroll Bell

HB: Bruce Rivers Bartram

C: Green McLean Moloney

HF: Pickett Dunn Bate

F: Davey Neitz Robertson

R: White Johnstone McDonald

I: Jamar Jones Sylvia C.Johnson

Robertson and Yze are battling for the same position, a maximum of 2 of Davey, Robertson and Yze could play in a premiership side. Even though he's more flanker than CHF I prefer Dunn to Miller, Neitz will need to push up hard to the 50 to create a target like Barry Hall does. I like Bob's idea of Bruce as 3rd tall back, it gives the backline more class, attack and flexibility.

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It's not what I expect to happen but MY current best 22 assuming no injuries:

B: Whelan Carroll Bell

HB: Bruce Rivers Bartram

C: Green McLean Moloney

HF: Pickett Dunn Bate

F: Davey Neitz Robertson

R: White Johnstone McDonald

I: Jamar Jones Sylvia C.Johnson

Where's Yze??

Perhaps if Daniher got him of defence (ie - Freo final) then maybe he'll be more the skilfull and classy player we loved in the early 2000's!!!

He must be in the starting 22. Not negotiable. If he has a soft 6 weeks, then drop him.

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Something different:

Backs: Whelan, Miller, Bell

Half Backs: Ward, Rivers, Bartarm

Centres: T. Johnstone, Sylvia, C. Johnson

Half Forwards: Davey, Dunn, Ferguson

Forwards: Robertson, Neitz, Green

Rucks: P. Johnson, Bate, Mclean

Int: Jamar, McDonald, Frawley, Jones

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Whelan Carroll CJ

Bell Rivers Bartram

TJ McDonald Bate

Green Dunn Davey

Robertson Neitz Pickett

White Bruce McLean

Jamar/PJ Sylvia Jones Moloney

Millers deficiencies don't thrill me, and his strengths aren't significant.

The third tall in the backline worries me, so it's fair to say I'm hoping CJ can make it his own rather than expecting.

I was tempted to have Bate at CHF as I can see him in this position in the not too distant future but for now his run and carry will be important.

My team will change over the course of the year. Who knows, Frawley may be the third tall by round 15 and Petterd may do a Bartram.

One thing is for sure though, I hope that Godfrey, Ward, Brown, and Whealtley get limited games, otherwise it's more of the same. Though, they've all been fine servants of the MFC.

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Wow.

Yeah, I like your thinking there Hannabal. And to a degree, I'm of the same mind. It seems to me that Dunn and Miller certainly play the game, and the position of CHF completely differently. One leads up and handballs, the other plays better around his ankles, leads well but tends to stay closer to goal etc etc. But I'm not so sure about your assertion that they'll not be playing for the same spot in the lineup. Assuming that we need an even spread of tall and small forwards (3 + 3), which is always a good place to start, then there really is only room for him on the bench. I regard Neita and Robbo as another two talls is the roles that they play. Assuming that you agree with that, Dunn could certainly take the place of an injured or out-of-form Neitz or Robbo. I love the idea of him playing out of the square part-time. The other three small spots are ironclad too... Davey, Pickett, Sylvia, Green, Bruce and a host of other important resting rotations through that area.

In short, we have a fantastic forward line, but a busy one. Unlike our backline, where our stronger resources are stretched thin, we have a wealth of forward-line players who'll demand to be played there. In that regard, Dunn is the 4th preferred tall, as Neita and even Robbo for mine are on the team-sheet in pen (despite a frustrating 2006), and Miller, as discussed, is for now the number one CHF at MFC.

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