On 25/06/2017 at 11:28, DubDee said:

Played 10 games for us, we've won 8. 

No coincidence.

The blokes a winner and we are a significantly better team when he plays

Actually, it IS a coincidence.

Many don't truly understand the meaning of ... coincidence.

I.e. The occurrence of two things simultaneously. 

What many MEAN to say..is it's no accidental coincidence !

  On 25/06/2017 at 09:51, martin said:

This is obviously becoming a tedious weekly ritual  re the discussion around Lewis. Let's remember he is virtually a free agent and receiving a salary not that much more than,what is now,the AFL average. He has performed as most have expected-high possessions,inside and a calming influence. None of us can measure the leadership qualities he brings.I suspect excellent.Over & out on this repetitive topic from me.

A bit flat Martin?

You seemed to have had more zest and energy last week.

 

FWIW, his inside stuff is good....it has to be, because he is a liability on the outside, and often goes to ground leaving us -1.

 

All I said last November, is that we are not getting the player we (club, media, and 99% of the public) think we are getting.  Don't worry about getting thru 2 years of a 3 year deal, when I thought getting through 1 would defy objective clear logic.  As one of the toughest most courageous players the game has seen, this player, with no tricks, was battle-weary in latter 2016.  Lewis and Mitchell finished 1&2 in their B&F, but look at how Hawthorn got pulverised in the clearances and contested possessions in 2016.

 

Yes his leadership record is high percentile; yes he is a calming influence:  but at what cost?  He goes to ground more than Simon Eishold.  Internally, he is frustrated as he knows the game might be past him.  Accordingly, he loses it occasionally which is the antithesis of leadership.  Watch this space.

Finally, for those that point to the coincidence of Lewis equals win, then what, Flower equals loss?  With that logic, should we keep Hogan at Casey?  Blind Fred suspects we could have carried Cale Morton for a similar W/L record.  Actually, this debate is Morton Mark II.

 

 

The last 2 games potentially in any year are for keeps, invariably on a big ground.  Will he be exploited by a quick team and a sharp coach?  I fear it.

 

 

 

 

pTGR

 

 

  On 25/06/2017 at 12:07, DV8 said:

Just like buddy will.  Key players are worth the pay.  Has Lewis already payed his way, this year?

I think so. The suspension probably cost us a game that he could of helped us win, aside from that he has been as good as advertised. 

  On 25/06/2017 at 11:28, Fifty-5 said:

He marked the last play inside defensive 50.  Critics like TGR and BB will say "coincidence".  Happy coincidence.

Am I BB or are you referring to Bub?

My argument was never that Lewis wasn't best 22, my argument was that DL gave him far too much credit for our success. I'm no Kane Cornes fan but he was dead right with his criticism.  Lewis gave away a dumb 50m that cost us a goal and was then petulant when he walked over the mark.  Minutes later he just shoved Petrie in the back. That is not leadership and it's not great on field coaching.

Nut thinks he's a good on field coach and leader.  I don't and Saturdays antics are more evidence.  You don't see Jones or Viney doing the sort of stupid things Lewis does. When Lewis was voted into the leadership group he hadn't played a game for us and came with a great reputation.  I'll be interested to see if he's in the leadership group next year now that the players have had a chance to see what he brings week in week out.

I read the posts since Saturday with interest.  I thought Saturday was one of Lewis's better games for us but it seems people are now picking up on his weaknesses.  He looks like a player who has been there and done that so often that despite our excitement he is uninvolved.  What did he say to Burgan after St.Kilda? "It's just a win Matt".

He and we are coming from such completely places he just doesn't get it.

I think Lewis is almost finished. He fumbles too often and misses too many easy kicks for a player of his pace. I hope I am wrong.

Jordan put in another shocker on Friday with 16 disposals and a single tackle.  He ripped out 5 contested possessions despite going into the midfield in the second half.  Jetts, who plays a much more defensive game managed 8 contested possessions and 8 tackles in his 16 possession game.

I note that when TGR started this thread the vast majority supported Jordie but now it seems with the prod of TGR's post many are starting to more strongly analyse his game and understand the limitation of his offering. 

Many are calling for his return to the midfield but he played there for much of Friday after Viney went down and had no impact.  I think the reality is Jordie doesn't like our game style, he is remembering with fondness the open keepings off style Hawthorn played for years and the prospect of the manic running pressure game we play is something he isn't suited to.  He doesn't look like he's bought into it for mine.

After Friday nights game Pro suggested he is collecting his super and that he has been a bitter disappointment.  I agree and have believed this for some time.  After snotting Cripps behind play and fracturing his jaw which resulted in a 3 week holiday he was anything but apologetic.  There was an arrogance about his dismissal of the criticism.  Many admired him for it.

Well this week push comes to shove.  He's a four time premiership player, he was bought to the Club for his leadership and experience.  He was second in Hawks B&F last year, he's demonstrated good footy this year in patches, he's got a three year contract guaranteeing him in excess of $1 million I'd imagine and now is his time.

Rather than wave his arms round telling others what to do I want to see him lead by example.  Tackles, chases, smothers, controlled aggression, clearances, contested possessions and a genuine impact on the game.

His time is now to show he is genuinely invested in this club and not just talking to his financial advisor asking where to put the money whilst picking up easy kicks and telling others what to do.

 

I'd also like him to change his boots and wear the longer wet weather screw ins. He looks like he's running on ice sometimes.

Edited July 3, 20177 yr by DominatrixTyson

Lewis has had a very poor month in a side that had been playing good footy until Friday. If he steps up and leads the team to a win on Sunday, all will be forgiven.

If not, it is increasingly difficult to see how he can be considered to be a best 22 player. 

My first request is that he puts his head down and picks up the footy at first attempt occasionally, rather than constantly fumbling because he is worried about what is happening around him. Second request is to follow an opponent rather than just standing in space pointing.

  On 03/07/2017 at 05:05, Vogon Poetry said:

Jordan put in another shocker on Friday with 16 disposals and a single tackle.  He ripped out 5 contested possessions despite going into the midfield in the second half.  Jetts, who plays a much more defensive game managed 8 contested possessions and 8 tackles in his 16 possession game.

I note that when TGR started this thread the vast majority supported Jordie but now it seems with the prod of TGR's post many are starting to more strongly analyse his game and understand the limitation of his offering. 

Many are calling for his return to the midfield but he played there for much of Friday after Viney went down and had no impact.  I think the reality is Jordie doesn't like our game style, he is remembering with fondness the open keepings off style Hawthorn played for years and the prospect of the manic running pressure game we play is something he isn't suited to.  He doesn't look like he's bought into it for mine.

After Friday nights game Pro suggested he is collecting his super and that he has been a bitter disappointment.  I agree and have believed this for some time.  After snotting Cripps behind play and fracturing his jaw which resulted in a 3 week holiday he was anything but apologetic.  There was an arrogance about his dismissal of the criticism.  Many admired him for it.

Well this week push comes to shove.  He's a four time premiership player, he was bought to the Club for his leadership and experience.  He was second in Hawks B&F last year, he's demonstrated good footy this year in patches, he's got a three year contract guaranteeing him in excess of $1 million I'd imagine and now is his time.

Rather than wave his arms round telling others what to do I want to see him lead by example.  Tackles, chases, smothers, controlled aggression, clearances, contested possessions and a genuine impact on the game.

His time is now to show he is genuinely invested in this club and not just talking to his financial advisor asking where to put the money whilst picking up easy kicks and telling others what to do.

 

Whilst I think a lot of your criticism of him throughout the year has been unnecessarily harsh, I agree with the general premise that he's underperforming, and I also agree that this weekend is a big game for him in the circumstances.

Win or lose, if he doesn't step up I'll be disappointed.

To be fair, my opinion wont change after one good or bad game from JL.  I wasn't prepared to judge him after a 10 goal win a few weeks ago, so should I refrain from further judgement from what should have been a 10-goal-plus loss to Sydney last Friday night?  I am trying to....honestly.

 

All I will point to 'at the present time' (Gerard Healyism), is to point to the pre-game Foxtel green/red graph, which highlighted every MFC player, and rated them with similar players in their specific age group across the league.  So this is comparing 20 year olds with 20 year olds, and 31 year olds with 31 year olds.  For memory, we had a majority of our players in the green (output better when compared to players in the comp of similar age).  Jordan was significantly red.  Now that is a fact based on his output for the MFC in his first half of the season in the Melbourne jumper.  Not my opinion.  Not a biased club opinion, where he may finish an artificial 12th in the B&F to support their decision-making.

 

 

pTGR

Slightly off-topic, but one area where Jordan has excelled in the past 12 months is the region at the back of his head.  Last year I had him covered for follicle growth in that cracker-sized region that most men struggle to keep covered.  At the minute (Newmanism), Jordan is absolutely smashing most in the hair stakes.

He has turned back time in relation to his head; if he can do the same on the field, TGR is out of here and will hide at MFC Flame for the remainder of his contract.

 

 

pTGR

  On 05/07/2017 at 01:26, TGR said:

Slightly off-topic, but one area where Jordan has excelled in the past 12 months is the region at the back of his head.  Last year I had him covered for follicle growth in that cracker-sized region that most men struggle to keep covered.  At the minute (Newmanism), Jordan is absolutely smashing most in the hair stakes.

He has turned back time in relation to his head; if he can do the same on the field, TGR is out of here and will hide at MFC Flame for the remainder of his contract.

 

 

pTGR

He is showing great on head leadership to younger follicles and helping us better  "structure  up" hair coverage

I thought he would bring more than he is delivering. He didn't step up last week when needed. A disappointment thus far.

He's had 22 tackles in 11 games.

In 24 last year he had 100.  It's not a flattering comparison.

  On 05/07/2017 at 02:11, Vogon Poetry said:

He's had 22 tackles in 11 games.

In 24 last year he had 100.  It's not a flattering comparison.

Damning stat.  That is almost a thread closer.  Viney will reach his average (2) under anaesthetic.

 

Some would question JL's intent.  I probably have no faith in his defensive spread and ability to get to the man with the ball (A1) or other close options (A2 or A3).

On the flip side, our adversaries on this topic might say he is not playing inside mid as much whereby in congestion there are more opportunities to tackle.  Anyway, his leadership is apparently worth 3 tackles, 1 goal and 7 other junk-time meaningless stats a game!

  On 05/07/2017 at 02:11, Vogon Poetry said:

He's had 22 tackles in 11 games.

In 24 last year he had 100.  It's not a flattering comparison.

He's playing a more outside role and knew coming here we had far more inside grunt.

That said, there's heavy lifting and barely lifting.

  On 05/07/2017 at 04:19, ProDee said:

He's playing a more outside role and knew coming here we had far more inside grunt.

That said, there's heavy lifting and barely lifting.

I certainly agree he's playing a more outside role.  One could be excused for confusing it with self preservation.

  On 05/07/2017 at 04:21, Vogon Poetry said:

I certainly agree he's playing a more outside role.  One could be excused for confusing it with self preservation.

I've been surprised by his lack of physicality inside the contest.

I think his numbers in both possessions and tackles will rise quite dramatically over the next 3-4 weeks. He will be playing a lot more through the middle of the ground to cover the losses of Jones & Viney.

  On 05/07/2017 at 04:25, Is Dom Is Good said:

I think his numbers in both possessions and tackles will rise quite dramatically over the next 3-4 weeks. He will be playing a lot more through the middle of the ground to cover the losses of Jones & Viney.

I hope you're right Don except he played through the middle on Friday after half time and couldn't get near it.

 

He hasn't been great but hopefully he has a big few weeks playing through the middle and relishing his leadership role.

He's slow, unaccountable and bruise free. I think he has to go to half back and let the play come to him. That's where he's played his best footy this year - v Saints, v GC, v WCE.

I've heard reports from players that Lewis' on field talk is valuable and that's going to be of more benefit at half back than any other spot.

I'd much rather give Vince a chance on ball in the next month because you know he'll compete at the contest and work hard around the ground.

Pretty obvious switch in my mind.

  On 05/07/2017 at 04:21, Vogon Poetry said:

I certainly agree he's playing a more outside role.  One could be excused for confusing it with self preservation.

I can't argue against the general proposition that he's not adding a whole lot on the field. His form doesn't presently allow it.

But I think you're being unnecessarily and unfairly harsh with some of the other comments like this one, or the one about his "financial advisor" and his super. I don't think, after the body of work he has built up over his career, he deserves that sort of commentary. Certainly given he was pushed out of Hawthorn more than he walked away for money, I don't think it's fair and it's not necessary given there's plenty to have a go at him for in terms of what he's doing on the field.

Needs to reproduce his form of 2016.

And keep his censored feet in close...

I will back players as good as him to give us a month of footy he needs to give.

Come on Jordie today is the day, prove me wrong and rub my nose in it.