BB. Taking personality out, what we have is:

A young, highly talented player

Who runs hard

Who trains hard

Has the right attitude and approach

Is a good kick

Is a smart footballer

Who has not, at age 21, put it all together on the field.

There may be reasons why he had not put it together on the field, including:

-Double hip surgery during first preseason

-Thrown to the wolves in his first season in arguably the worst season a club has had in modern football, before he was ready physically or mentally

-Poor quality coach in his first year

-Change in coach/football department at end of first year

-Appendix out in his 2nd year

-A couple of untimely concussions in his third year

He clearly has an issue with confidence in his own abilities which he will need to overcome to make it.

But he had also clearly shown that he had the tools and attributes to make a player at AFL level.

Unless we think we can get better value with a late draft pick (who will younger - and thus less likely to impact in 2016 than Toumpas), there is clearly upside to giving him time to come good.

If he doesn't become a regular best 22 by 2017 he is out the door. But a 4th year is not unreasonable given what we had shown and what some of his obstacles have been.

we'll see

Im not convinced he can make it appreciatively at this level.....and its at this level that counts

we'll see

Im not convinced he can make it appreciatively at this level.....and its at this level that counts

I agree bb

He seldom seems to have much impact even at VFL level.

Is it too much to ask of a no. 4 selection to play well for Casey?

essentially true Sue. Im sure the club will be looking for trades and the currency ???

I dont need to name players., I'm not privy to all of that info..who knows who is/will be avail.. Thats the clubs job

I agree. It is the club's job. But on this forum, those calling for his head on a platter really have to either suggest replacements or prove that Toumpas will never make it and so absolutely anyone new on the list is a better gamble. I haven't seen any likely replacements suggested and there is no objective proof of the latter which would cause me to doubt whatever decision the club finally makes.

we'll see

Im not convinced he can make it appreciatively at this level.....and its at this level that counts

That is completely fair enough.

If you don't think he can make it, then that is the basis for your call.

If the footy department agree they won't extend his contract. I'll back Roos and co and their experience to make the best percentage call.

But your suggestion that "we shouldn't give him a contract because we need immediate impact players", and old dees comment about him not performing as a pick 4 should is not relevant unless his he is implying that this is a reason that he thinks he'll never make it.

I was thinking about Toumpas and the cr*p he cops on here and then thought, what do clubs like Hawthorn and Geelong do with underperforming young players.

It seems it a lot of instances they back in their development and keep faith.

Hawks:

Alex Woodward- drafted in 2011 and had a horror run with knee injuries (still on Hawks list)

Geelong:

Daniel Menzel- drafted 2009 and again a horror run with injuries (still on the list)

West Coast:

Brad Sheppard- drafted in 2009 and has taken a long time to develop. Having his best season in 2015.

Chris Masten- drafted in 2007 and played his first decent season in 2012.

Sydney:

Large amount of swans play in the reserves for the start of their career.

Harry Cunningham: drafted 2012- just starting to show good signs.

Obviously they also have young players who play straight off the bat but it goes to show that there's no right or wrong way. If we don't back in our development with Toumpas then the club may as well fold as we will never develop a premiership side.

It's a good summary and gives some hope, but those teams have all been serious contenders while these players have been developing. Unfortunately young players can't develop quietly at a team like ours, because they'll stand out with all the other 'underperforming' players.

That is completely fair enough.

If you don't think he can make it, then that is the basis for your call.

If the footy department agree they won't extend his contract. I'll back Roos and co and their experience to make the best percentage call.

But your suggestion that "we shouldn't give him a contract because we need immediate impact players", and old dees comment about him not performing as a pick 4 should is not relevant unless his he is implying that this is a reason that he thinks he'll never make it.

I was suggesting that I expect a number 4 pick to play well consistently at VFL level.

That is completely fair enough.

If you don't think he can make it, then that is the basis for your call.

If the footy department agree they won't extend his contract. I'll back Roos and co and their experience to make the best percentage call.

But your suggestion that "we shouldn't give him a contract because we need immediate impact players", and old dees comment about him not performing as a pick 4 should is not relevant unless his he is implying that this is a reason that he thinks he'll never make it.

Hang on...there are 2 issues here.

1) Do I think he'll amount to much for us

and 2) secondly what right now might be the best value achievable for JT ?

1) I have my doubts

2) Given (1) Id be looking to use whatever value he has in a trade

Its a bit like moving from one travelator to another.. Which is going to get you to where you re going...and get on it..( at any given time )

Agree completely there are two issues: 1) will he make it from here and 2) should he have been drafted.

Most importantly i think these issues are unrelated and should be discussed separately.

On 1) I gave reasons why I thought he was worth hanging on to. Thesehave nothing to do with draft position. That doesn't mean I believe he'll definitely make it but imo he has more upside than an unknown pick 80+ we'd get off he was delisted. Does he have trade value? I doubt it. I wouldn't pay for him if I wanted him, I'd take for free as delisted FA or in the PSD. Or late swap of picks to get the deal done.

On 2),

a) who cares, we already did.

b) with hindsight yeah others are better.

c) clubs will continue to draft the players they think will be the beat AFL player whether that player needs development or will make impact. You draft kids to be the beat available, you draft mature players or trade off you want immediately impact.

Old Dee, in isolation i agree with your content "he isn't performing at VFL like a pick 4 should" but earlier this year he was doing fine. Either way, unless the argument is "he isn't performing enough at VFL to justify a contract extension", is it relevant?

deanox you appear to have a scratch in your record.

If we got rid of everyone who wasn't getting a game right now, we'd be left with 22 players.

There is, believe it or not, more to list management than that.

No, not if you include the injured players, which you obviously should:

Add to last week's 22: Dawes, Frost, Kent, Lumumba, Pedersen, Petracca, Trengove, Tyson, Vandenberg

That means if you are at Casey right now you are at least the 32nd best player on the list, which means you are in the bottom 13, including rookies.

...and we're a horror show that has lost the last 4 games by 9 goals average, not exactly a tough side to break into

fact is Michie, O-Mac, Newton, MJones, Stretch, ANB and Spencer have all been selected before him, so that's not a great sign is it

They are available for trade until after the trade period, that's why the players pushed for free agency because even if you were out of contract the departing player needed to play ball with his current club to get to his club of choice. If we re-sign him now he is off the table until the next trade period.

I could see an idea of trading him for a top quality player as a sweetener if it was necessary.

or what about a trade of Toump for an Aish, both young unknown quantities... or as part of any Mayes or Redden deal?

D-rod is probably a good mentor but surely there'd be someone better out there, get Roosy to pull some strings and get Jude Bolton to teach him how to be a contested ball machine or something

why one of the smaller players mentoring a player lacking self belief at this level... Rodan would have had to face many fear obstacles to get to the level he did. & his footwork as well would be beneficial for learning the side step, & composure under pressure.

No, not if you include the injured players, which you obviously should:

Add to last week's 22: Dawes, Frost, Kent, Lumumba, Pedersen, Petracca, Trengove, Tyson, Vandenberg

That means if you are at Casey right now you are at least the 32nd best player on the list, which means you are in the bottom 13, including rookies.

...and we're a horror show that has lost the last 4 games by 9 goals average, not exactly a tough side to break into

fact is Michie, O-Mac, Newton, MJones, Stretch, ANB and Spencer have all been selected before him, so that's not a great sign is it

Agree but he got concussion and sat out a game as well.

Hard to break into a side when you are not playing.

Agree but he got concussion and sat out a game as well.

Hard to break into a side when you are not playing.

Even harder when you look ordinary when you have made it in.

Even harder when you look ordinary when you have made it in.

Roos meant you when he spoke of negativity...

Ha ha

I'm hoping that abolishment of subs and reduction of rotation will help the likes of Toumpas - he has generally done well in endurance training, I believe?

With the changes announced today it's likely that he'll get more of an opportunity if he has a big tank and can ran all day at a consistent level.

There should be less of a focus on burst speed and more on an ability to gut run.

Roos meant you when he spoke of negativity...

Ha ha

I have droped him like a hot rock!

As for Jimmy I just don't see anything but average at best G

Please tell me you see more?

I have droped him like a hot rock!

As for Jimmy I just don't see anything but average at best G

Please tell me you see more?

His 25 disposal 2 goal game shows he is capable. Just need that on a more consistent basis.

My hope is that another pre-season will see him fully over his hip issues....

I was thinking about Toumpas and the cr*p he cops on here and then thought, what do clubs like Hawthorn and Geelong do with underperforming young players.

It seems it a lot of instances they back in their development and keep faith.

Hawks:

Alex Woodward- drafted in 2011 and had a horror run with knee injuries (still on Hawks list)

Geelong:

Daniel Menzel- drafted 2009 and again a horror run with injuries (still on the list)

West Coast:

Brad Sheppard- drafted in 2009 and has taken a long time to develop. Having his best season in 2015.

Chris Masten- drafted in 2007 and played his first decent season in 2012.

Sydney:

Large amount of swans play in the reserves for the start of their career.

Harry Cunningham: drafted 2012- just starting to show good signs.

Obviously they also have young players who play straight off the bat but it goes to show that there's no right or wrong way. If we don't back in our development with Toumpas then the club may as well fold as we will never develop a premiership side.

Menzel is a terrible example. He was a star in his second year. Of course they were going to stand by him.

That list is very thin on the ground. Is it all you could come up with ?

His 25 disposal 2 goal game shows he is capable. Just need that on a more consistent basis.

My hope is that another pre-season will see him fully over his hip issues....

Blease had a five goal game once.

OD..we're just cynical old bastatds..seen it all...just deal in results.

Others are dreamers...their world is warm and fuzzy...full of players who are all good blokes full of 'potential ' and there's no limit apparently to how much 'time' one gives them.

Silly aren't we

OD..we're just cynical old bastatds..seen it all...just deal in results.

Others are dreamers...their world is warm and fuzzy...full of players who are all good blokes full of 'potential ' and there's no limit apparently to how much 'time' one gives them.

Silly aren't we

How old are you?

How old are you?

don't know how to research eh

OD..we're just cynical old bastatds..seen it all...just deal in results.

And just see things in black and white.

And just see things in black and white.

thats filthy

I see them red and blue.

I am a realist. I dont sugar coat or accept bullshlt.

You're welcome to whatever floats your boat.

We're just humming along as a successful club aren't we...ooh Yeah