I don't agree C and B we had a number of players running around last Sunday that are not AFL standard / Ready.

We had IMO 18 players who were up to the standard no team will win with 4 passengers

well OD what is the difference between last sunday and those three great wins? We have a lot of injuries atm but we have had all year so that is not the answer. If your assessment is that the 22 of last sunday is indeed 'talent poor' then how was basically the same mob able to score those three great victories?

That then goes round and round as well, is it not up to the players to bring their best week after week without needing the coaches to inspire them to do so?

fair call, I don't know the answer

The discussion here at the moment keeps going round on this question: Is it the coach or the players?

IMHO, and the opinion of many others, the answer is CLEARLY NOT that we are 'talent poor' as you say

My evidence for this is that we have shown on several (albeit infrequent) occasions that we do have the talent

If you watch the games against tigers, dogs and cats you see a top 6 side, no doubt about it

It is only fair then to suggest it lies in the coaches hands to get this ability out of them 4 qtrs x 22 games

That is the point, it is the lack of talent which is so self evident, that we are just not in a position to have sustained periods of good form. As I said in my original post, I have no doubt that we have improved, but the little improvement that we have made, in my view, is directly attributable to - still - a considerable lack of class. I remember the disappointment in 85, when Barassi's much vaunted '5 year' plan seemingly came to an end as what seemed to be a fizzer. It was not all that long after, that Swooper Northey inherited a list with talent and a desire to win. I am hoping - and I think he will - that Roos can replicate that and what Goodwin inherits may take us that one step further, of which Northey fell just short.

well OD what is the difference between last sunday and those three great wins? We have a lot of injuries atm but we have had all year so that is not the answer. If your assessment is that the 22 of last sunday is indeed 'talent poor' then how was basically the same mob able to score those three great victories?

Effort. And commitment.

When the players don't bring it 3 weeks running in the 1st qtr, its the coach who hasn't recognised the problem and/or who hasn't been able to anything about it.

That is the point, it is the lack of talent which is so self evident, that we are just not in a position to have sustained periods of good form

so you're saying that our players have talent, but it is the type of talent that only comes out 3 times in a season. I can't understand this

you can see it as plain as day (in your memory or in the replay) - compare the last 2 weeks to those 3 great wins, disregarding the injuries, results and the opposition entirely, it is the WAY that they played, it was the EFFORT, HARDNESS and TEAMWORK that got us those victories, and that is what has gone missing now, and periodically throughout the year. It is not a failure of talent. Vince, for example, has been ineffective the last 3 weeks. Around the middle of the year he was one of the better players ion the comp, averaging 34 disposals in a 5 week period. We all know who the REAL Vince is. Jones is similar, as are Viney and Brayshaw and many others in terms of their impact. What has changed? Why are they unable to build upon the achievements made butin fact go backwards? Isn't this the coaches job?

Effort. And commitment.

When the players don't bring it 3 weeks running in the 1st qtr, its the coach who hasn't recognised the problem and/or who hasn't been able to anything about it.

typing as you wrote this, agree entirely

fair call, I don't know the answer

The very worst sides catch the opposition napping occasionally.

We beat Essendon back in 2012 with arguably the worst side the MFC has put in the field in the last 25 years.

Now I am not saying we are the worst side or that we have not improved over the last two years.

But we still have a poor side.

Where we currently sit is close to our ability.

How else can you explain our inability to beat Carlton and Essendon.

We simply are for a similar ability to them.

so you're saying that our players have talent, but it is the type of talent that only comes out 3 times in a season. I can't understand this

you can see it as plain as day (in your memory or in the replay) - compare the last 2 weeks to those 3 great wins, disregarding the injuries, results and the opposition entirely, it is the WAY that they played, it was the EFFORT, HARDNESS and TEAMWORK that got us those victories, and that is what has gone missing now, and periodically throughout the year. It is not a failure of talent. Vince, for example, has been ineffective the last 3 weeks. Around the middle of the year he was one of the better players ion the comp, averaging 34 disposals in a 5 week period. We all know who the REAL Vince is. Jones is similar, as are Viney and Brayshaw and many others in terms of their impact. What has changed? Why are they unable to build upon the achievements made butin fact go backwards? Isn't this the coaches job?

Vince is a damn good player, who along with a few others e.g N Jones, Viney, Bradshaw, MacDonald early, Hogan and perhaps you can throw in Neal-Bullen, have basically carried the team on their backs. To put it bluntly, they're buggered. Others perhaps give credence to that old fashioned term 'playing above themselves'. As this game is played more and more above the shoulders, you only have to be a fraction off mentally and you will get hammered. In terms of talent within our playing stocks, we still have some way to go.

Sure the coach has a pivotal and crucial role to play in doing everything possible to get the mindset right on game day, as do the entire coaching staff. But unlike days past, fire and brimstone rev ups just don't do it anymore. It is the calibre of the player, their own individual mental steel, that set the elite apart from the also rans.

Vince is a damn good player, who along with a few others e.g N Jones, Viney, Bradshaw, MacDonald early, Hogan and perhaps you can throw in Neal-Bullen, have basically carried the team on their backs. To put it bluntly, they're buggered. Others perhaps give credence to that old fashioned term 'playing above themselves'. As this game is played more and more above the shoulders, you only have to be a fraction off mentally and you will get hammered. In terms of talent within our playing stocks, we still have some way to go.

Sure the coach has a pivotal and crucial role to play in doing everything possible to get the mindset right on game day, as do the entire coaching staff. But unlike days past, fire and brimstone rev ups just don't do it anymore. It is the calibre of the player, their own individual mental steel, that set the elite apart from the also rans.

For me this nails it.

We all know that the players aren't going in hard or working enough on field. The coach can but do his best, but it is up to the players.

We all know that this list has struggled for a decade so it isn't a surprise that it will take note than 2 years to fix like the saints or dogs potentially did/might.

The only option is to give the coaching staff time to get it sorted. Not 2 drafts.

The very worst sides catch the opposition napping occasionally.

We beat Essendon back in 2012 with arguably the worst side the MFC has put in the field in the last 25 years.

Now I am not saying we are the worst side or that we have not improved over the last two years.

But we still have a poor side.

Where we currently sit is close to our ability.

How else can you explain our inability to beat Carlton and Essendon.

We simply are for a similar ability to them.

Come off it OD. The side form last sunday is NOT the side that went to the cattery. There are two sides - good demons and bad demons. You can't cop out and say we just got lucky 3 times, you know all of those games we played to our best and had deserved wins over good sides. Don't rewrite history.

Vince is a damn good player, who along with a few others e.g N Jones, Viney, Bradshaw, MacDonald early, Hogan and perhaps you can throw in Neal-Bullen, have basically carried the team on their backs. To put it bluntly, they're buggered. Others perhaps give credence to that old fashioned term 'playing above themselves'. As this game is played more and more above the shoulders, you only have to be a fraction off mentally and you will get hammered. In terms of talent within our playing stocks, we still have some way to go.

Sure the coach has a pivotal and crucial role to play in doing everything possible to get the mindset right on game day, as do the entire coaching staff. But unlike days past, fire and brimstone rev ups just don't do it anymore. It is the calibre of the player, their own individual mental steel, that set the elite apart from the also rans.

What? Let me get this straight, so you've named 5 or 6 players as the reason we are sometimes good, but because these players are mentally weak, they are not able to carry us all the time. Is that what you're saying? The fact is that the entire team almost to a player has had their form drop off considerably over the last month or two. Obviouslly that can't be some sort of coincidence.

Come off it OD. The side form last sunday is NOT the side that went to the cattery. There are two sides - good demons and bad demons. You can't cop out and say we just got lucky 3 times, you know all of those games we played to our best and had deserved wins over good sides. Don't rewrite history.

Then why carn't those same champions beat St Kilda, Carlton , Essendon ?

They are no where near as good as you think.

We are bottom five side the results prove it.

Then why carn't those same champions beat St Kilda, Carlton , Essendon ?

They are no where near as good as you think.

We are bottom five side the results prove it.

They can't beat those carp sides because they don't bring the same effort every week which is the coach's fault

and around we go again

What? Let me get this straight, so you've named 5 or 6 players as the reason we are sometimes good, but because these players are mentally weak, they are not able to carry us all the time. Is that what you're saying? The fact is that the entire team almost to a player has had their form drop off considerably over the last month or two. Obviouslly that can't be some sort of coincidence.

C&B, if you are going to interpolate, then please read the post in context. At no stage did I say that the players I named are mentally weak. I said they're buggered - physically - from carrying most of the team thus far. It is the lack of mental toughness and a diminishing skill level as you go down the list, that is, in my opinion, the root cause of the drop off. I have the utmost admiration for those "5 or 6 players' I named, but they need some of their team mates to lend their support.

Then why carn't those same champions beat St Kilda, Carlton , Essendon ?

They are no where near as good as you think.

We are bottom five side the results prove it.

Attitude OD Attitude

This team picks and chooses when to turn it on

It is not a given yet.

Attitude OD Attitude

This team picks and chooses when to turn it on

It is not a given yet.

Even our new 'best player' Bernie Vince had 24 Uncontested Possies a month ago against Collingwood and had 7 against Carlton. UPs are a measure of work and effort to get the ball in space.

So that attitude is even evident in our best players, and the ones that will be a part of our resurgence in the next couple of years.

The question is - how much is Roos to blame for renowned professionals like Bernie not displaying consistent effort?

You're the highest paid coach in AFL history Paul, it is your job to get the boys up and firing in the first quarter.

No, it's the players' job as part of their responsibility to themselves as elite, professional athletes, as well as to their team mates and their club/guernsey.

Does anyone here think for one minute that it's Clarkson's responsibility to get Luke Hodge "up and firing" for each match?

Effort isn't something coaches bring, it's what players bring.

Vince is a damn good player, who along with a few others e.g N Jones, Viney, Bradshaw, MacDonald early, Hogan and perhaps you can throw in Neal-Bullen, have basically carried the team on their backs. To put it bluntly, they're buggered. Others perhaps give credence to that old fashioned term 'playing above themselves'. As this game is played more and more above the shoulders, you only have to be a fraction off mentally and you will get hammered. In terms of talent within our playing stocks, we still have some way to go.

Sure the coach has a pivotal and crucial role to play in doing everything possible to get the mindset right on game day, as do the entire coaching staff. But unlike days past, fire and brimstone rev ups just don't do it anymore. It is the calibre of the player, their own individual mental steel, that set the elite apart from the also rans.

Oh fine we'll let them all off the hook becasue they are buggered. Poor lambs.

What a crock. And its attutudes like this that lets them think its OK.

Attitudes that say 'Oh we are only expected to win 7 games this year. We must be doing OK'.

Imagine Clarkson saying that. He would be frothing at the mouth. But Roos (and probably you) just want to take the poor lambs to the movies to get their mind off things for a little while...

Oh fine we'll let them all off the hook becasue they are buggered. Poor lambs.

What a crock. And its attutudes like this that lets them think its OK.

Attitudes that say 'Oh we are only expected to win 7 games this year. We must be doing OK'.

Imagine Clarkson saying that. He would be frothing at the mouth. But Roos (and probably you) just want to take the poor lambs to the movies to get their mind off things for a little while...

Hang on. Where and when did I say that? I said, they are buggered, because they had to do most of the grunt work on their own. They need their team mates to share the load. Get your facts right.

Hang on. Where and when did I say that? I said, they are buggered, because they had to do most of the grunt work on their own. They need their team mates to share the load. Get your facts right.

Well I agree with you.

In a nut shell I believe you are saying that too few are doing all the hard work and they are tired.

When their level drops there is no one to take up the slack so our performance drops.

Seem quite reasonable to me

Well I agree with you.

In a nut shell I believe you are saying that too few are doing all the hard work and they are tired.

When their level drops there is no one to take up the slack so our performance drops.

Seem quite reasonable to me

Thanks OD. Precisely.

I have received a response from the MFC membership division, I have redacted personal details.

Good afternoon xxxxxxxxxManDee,

Thank you for your email and xxx years of consecutive membership. I apologise for the tardy response as we have had a high volume of emails this week.

This week due to the loss and the disappointment amongst our supporters I have passed emails on to Paul Roos and the footy department. As he has publicised, he has received a lot of emails and due to time constraints leading into an away game he cannot personally reply to each email but please be assured however that he has read it.

As a member, supporter and six year employee of the Club, I understand your frustrations however I can assure you that Peter Jackson & Paul Roos have established and reinforced a great culture within the Club, one that places an emphasis on a positive environment, that doesn’t dwell on any possible setbacks or undesired outcomes, and seeks to stay on a clear path towards future success. We are all united at the Club both on and off the field, and we all share the same passion and vision, and I can assure you we are on the right path to achieving our goals.

It breaks our hearts to hear that you have lost faith in the Club and that you are considering not renewing your membership. While in isolation the last couple of weeks have been disappointing & there is little I can say to defend the performances, it remains clear that when the boys play at their best, they are competitive with any team. Hopefully the boys are able to finish the season strong and restore your trust in the Club. Our members definitely deserve better than what they were given against Carlton & I'm sure the boys realise this ahead of their games against Freo this weekend.

On behalf of absolutely everyone here at the Club, players and staff included, I would like to thank you for your support of the Club – we realise that it has been trying times of late but please stick in there as I can assure you that as a Club we are well and truly in going in the right direction.

Kind Regards,

xxxxxxx

Now that is a good response, well done MFC.

I have received a response from the MFC membership division, I have redacted personal details.

Good afternoon xxxxxxxxxManDee,

Thank you for your email and xxx years of consecutive membership. I apologise for the tardy response as we have had a high volume of emails this week.

This week due to the loss and the disappointment amongst our supporters I have passed emails on to Paul Roos and the footy department. As he has publicised, he has received a lot of emails and due to time constraints leading into an away game he cannot personally reply to each email but please be assured however that he has read it.

As a member, supporter and six year employee of the Club, I understand your frustrations however I can assure you that Peter Jackson & Paul Roos have established and reinforced a great culture within the Club, one that places an emphasis on a positive environment, that doesn’t dwell on any possible setbacks or undesired outcomes, and seeks to stay on a clear path towards future success. We are all united at the Club both on and off the field, and we all share the same passion and vision, and I can assure you we are on the right path to achieving our goals.

It breaks our hearts to hear that you have lost faith in the Club and that you are considering not renewing your membership. While in isolation the last couple of weeks have been disappointing & there is little I can say to defend the performances, it remains clear that when the boys play at their best, they are competitive with any team. Hopefully the boys are able to finish the season strong and restore your trust in the Club. Our members definitely deserve better than what they were given against Carlton & I'm sure the boys realise this ahead of their games against Freo this weekend.

On behalf of absolutely everyone here at the Club, players and staff included, I would like to thank you for your support of the Club – we realise that it has been trying times of late but please stick in there as I can assure you that as a Club we are well and truly in going in the right direction.

Kind Regards,

xxxxxxx

Now that is a good response, well done MFC.

Can't argue with that for a response....Now let us see it happen in action.

I don't think there is any doubt we have improved. The trouble is so have the other teams. They all improve each year with better personnel, better training, better development etc.

What we need to do is improve to a point where we are competitive in every game and win more of them. We also need to improve our attitude and effort, so that every game gets our best or close to it.

ATM we don't seem to be able to eliminate poor starts, a poor attitude and poor effort in some games.

We also need desperately to improve our skills, as turnovers kill us and we are probably the worst in the AFL in this area.

Some more pace would also not go astray.

As for the Carlton game, we were pathetic.

I have received a response from the MFC membership division, I have redacted personal details.

Good afternoon xxxxxxxxxManDee,

Thank you for your email and xxx years of consecutive membership. I apologise for the tardy response as we have had a high volume of emails this week.

This week due to the loss and the disappointment amongst our supporters I have passed emails on to Paul Roos and the footy department. As he has publicised, he has received a lot of emails and due to time constraints leading into an away game he cannot personally reply to each email but please be assured however that he has read it.

As a member, supporter and six year employee of the Club, I understand your frustrations however I can assure you that Peter Jackson & Paul Roos have established and reinforced a great culture within the Club, one that places an emphasis on a positive environment, that doesnt dwell on any possible setbacks or undesired outcomes, and seeks to stay on a clear path towards future success. We are all united at the Club both on and off the field, and we all share the same passion and vision, and I can assure you we are on the right path to achieving our goals.

It breaks our hearts to hear that you have lost faith in the Club and that you are considering not renewing your membership. While in isolation the last couple of weeks have been disappointing & there is little I can say to defend the performances, it remains clear that when the boys play at their best, they are competitive with any team. Hopefully the boys are able to finish the season strong and restore your trust in the Club. Our members definitely deserve better than what they were given against Carlton & I'm sure the boys realise this ahead of their games against Freo this weekend.

On behalf of absolutely everyone here at the Club, players and staff included, I would like to thank you for your support of the Club we realise that it has been trying times of late but please stick in there as I can assure you that as a Club we are well and truly in going in the right direction.

Kind Regards,

xxxxxxx

Now that is a good response, well done MFC.

Now where have I heard something similar to that before.......

Good Afternoon DrMubutu,

Thank you for your email. I can certainly understand your frustrations with Sundays game. Mark and the players were shattered with the performance. It was nowhere near the standard expected from everyone at the Melbourne Football Club. They will be doing everything they can in coming weeks to show they are better than Sunday's effort. The players have trained hard over the summer, both physically and with their football preparation but that wasnt reflected on the weekend, not in any way.

I know you are frustrated and disappointed with the Club at this time but your support is so important to us. Support from our loyal members is what keeps this club going through time, in my two years at the Club I am continually amazed by the passion and loyalty that our members demonstrate, even when the chips are down and the personal satisfaction is just not being experienced. From someone working inside the Club, I share your frustration but also share a passion for this Club that I know in time will achieve success.

Every week is a new week in football, so we hope that our future performances can speak for themselves and win people back over in time.

Thank you for your support as a member and please dont hesitate to contact us if there is anything else we can do to assist.

Kind regards

Oh, that's right: empty platitudes served up after round 1, 2013, when, surprise, surprise, the players couldn't be arsed. Why even bother emailing the club when you know this is all that you're going to get in response. (In my defense, I was just made redundant when I sent my previous misguided email, and I'm sure you all remember that particular trainwreck of a game.)

I'll believe we've turned the corner when I see it. We've seen glimpses, but obviously, they're still nowhere near it.