Changes for Round 4

[binman 43,762]

Im going to be bitterly disappointed if Watts isnt withdrawn from the final team.

Why? Are you hoping we lose? We scored 55 points last game. Watts directly created 3 goals with assist, so a third our score and was involved in 2 other goals. And you want him dropped. What about Dawes? No goal assists, few meaningful plays and it would be more of a shock him marking a ball than dropping one Edited April 22, 2015 by Nasher
Fixed broken formatting

[rjay 25,088]

Well based on the weather forecast

In - Michie

Out - Frost (inj)

Dawes can back up ruck, he doesn't call the shots on where he plays.

He doesn't call the shots, that's not the problem...the problem is he is not a good ruck.

[baysidedave 246]

Why? Are you hoping we lose? We scored 55 points last game. Watts directly created 3 goals with assist, so a third our score and was involved in 2 other goals. And you want him dropped. What about Dawes? No goal assists, few meaningful plays and it would be more of a shock him marking a ball than dropping one

happens every week, we get beaten and [censored] supporters scream in unison "drop Watts" idiots all of them!!!

[robbiefrom13 892]

i do find it difficult to defend him, are there any players who play a similar role in a top 4 side

This is interesting - of course, nobody is exactly the same as anybody else. If another player is suggested, there will immediately be a whole lot of quite correct objections on the basis of differences between them and Watts.

But then what about Brian Wilson who used to go down in a heap with an "injury" more than a lot liked? "Ah, ya down again son!" in a Foghorn Leghorn voice... He was a discard from two clubs at the age of 20, but a star for us for years after. Great contributor - with this downright cringey peculiarity. What about the great Allan Jakovitch, who was not entirely trusted I'd say, because of his idiosyncracies - never fit, was one of them. We kept him in the Reserves, kicking huge bags of goals, for far too long before he got into the seniors. How can you be a footballer if you won't get fit? But he proved you could. Plenty of others come to mind, lacking a presumed non-negotiable. Tiger Crosswell was considered odd. Doull certainly was. Actually, think of the history of discards - people who didn't quite fit the moulds. Diesel Williams, or Ablett senior, for example. Brett Lovett.

Even the great Robbie Flower was told yes, he could train if he liked - but really we were looking for good players - the presumption being that without the physique or the mongrel you weren't going to be up to much in AFL. I know that was before we saw what he could do, but it is a true fact that Melbourne supporters in the outer were calling for him to be taken off - and a lot more than once - before half-time in his first game. People looked at what was there and when it didn't fit their mental image they scorned it.

So, what should we be looking for in a comparison, a precedent, to justify our having faith in Jack Watts? (Experts that we are... ) Hawkins keeps getting mentioned - Geelong persevered with an over-sized underperformer for a long time while they were right at the top. But, obviously, no-one is going to be exactly like Jack Watts. What can be said is that Watts is involved in goals more often than a lot of other slow-developing players have been. His so-called softness does not prevent his contributing, no matter how much it sticks out in the minds of supporters.

But everyone's unique - knowing that was one of Paul Roos' great attributes, and thank goodness we got him! Neeld must have virtually destroyed a lot of individuals at Melbourne. Why don't we just trust the Roos as an authority on the value of Watts? Spectate, take notice, and learn what we don't already know?

[Nasher 33,617]

Watts is better than any of the players playing in the VFL and adds more to the team. No matter how much he may frustrate some people with his style, that's the only thing that will dictate his selection.

Those that want him dropped to "send a message" or whatever need to move on from the 1980s.

[Damo 3,374]

Watts plays without any dash. Dawes is always trying, bustling and is a focal point. No one looks for Jack Watts and they havent for 7 years.

The team would miss Dawes much more than Jack Watts and the apologists for Watts always come out with stats that dont stand up. I dont expect him to be dropped and I dont expect him to change in his outlook or his game. I dont blame him as he is continually encouraged and never dropped.

His acts and Tex's go at him which he totally ignored and walked away from turned the game significantly in my opinion.

[Mad_Melbourne 877]

Why? Are you hoping we lose? We scored 55 points last game. Watts directly created 3 goals with assist, so a third our score and was involved in 2 other goals. And you want him dropped. What about Dawes? No goal assists, few meaningful plays and it would be more of a shock him marking a ball than dropping one

Neither should be drooped and people saying that Dawes should be dropped are equally as stupid as those calling for Watts to be dropped.

Structure is vital for a good team and the fact that we are able to play Dawes in a key post directly protects Hogan from playing on two opponents. Whilst Dawes does not mark, he does a hell of a lot of grunt work and looks to compete and bring the ball down extremely well, but at the end of the day we have no better replacement for either of Gawn or Watts and not even by a short margin, by the length of the straight, so why would we bother dropping either.

At the end of the day when it comes down to the first 10 players named on a week by week basis Dawes and Watts would be up there or there abouts.

His acts and Tex's go at him which he totally ignored and walked away from turned the game significantly in my opinion.

In my opinion this did not significantly change the game, the fact that we were outscored 6.4-0.1 or something similar from stoppages is what changed the game, and the fact that we had the same amount of scoring shots from the ball being in our forward half for a massive chunk of the game was what caused the result.

Edited April 22, 2015 by Mad_Melbourne

[watchtheeyes 1,422]

He doesn't call the shots, that's not the problem...the problem is he is not a good ruck.

Neither was Frost though. He's just there as a brief stopgap.. I don't mind the idea of Dawes filling this role if it means we can add another runner.

[ManDee 7,222]

In that specific contest what did he have to protect. My memory of it was that he had the drop on two defenders in front of him with the ball coming in high. I would have jumped in knees first hoping for a mark but only likely to spill the ball, no threat to my health. Watts has done something different and stayed upright at the back for the handball to the running player going passed. Maybe I need to review the tape again.

What's tape? Should that be Watts tape?

Edited April 22, 2015 by ManDee

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

Where was this when [Maloney] was still on the list?

[Lamumba]

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

Tex's go at him which he totally ignored and walked away from turned the game significantly in my opinion.

Another perfect example of the type of thing Watts gets criticised for but for every other player in the side, it doesn't even get mentioned

All of a sudden being a hotheaded chimp and going in for some jumper punches is a quality that is so important it turns games

Give us a break please

[ManDee 7,222]

Watts plays without any dash. Dawes is always trying, bustling and is a focal point. No one looks for Jack Watts and they havent for 7 years.

The team would miss Dawes much more than Jack Watts and the apologists for Watts always come out with stats that dont stand up. I dont expect him to be dropped and I dont expect him to change in his outlook or his game. I dont blame him as he is continually encouraged and never dropped.

His acts and Tex's go at him which he totally ignored and walked away from turned the game significantly in my opinion.

Cranky 31, are these the stats that don't support your argument or the stats that do?

Watts is in front of Boyd on most stats he is on $1 mill pa

Watts is in front of our old mate Mitch Clark on most stats this season.

Watts is in front of Kurt Tippet & Nic Nat on most stats (not hitouts) this season

Watts is in front of Jack Darling on most stats for carreer

He is a different dude, he will be better in a better side.

[Mad_Melbourne 877]

Another perfect example of the type of thing Watts gets criticised for but for every other player in the side, it doesn't even get mentioned

All of a sudden being a hotheaded chimp and going in for some jumper punches is a quality that is so important it turns games

Give us a break please

I agree with all that you have said, I think "toughness" is often misconstrued by alot of supporters of football and Melbourne in general ....

but I was happy to see the little tangle that happened because it showed a little bit of passion from our players and I loved seeing Dean Kent absolutely rag doll someone, but what I was most impressed with out of it all was that Angus Brayshaw walked in and dragged Nathan Jones out effectively diffusing the situation.

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

Angus Brayshaw walked in and dragged Nathan Jones out effectively diffusing the situation.

I saw that too and thought it was absolutely hilarious, 3-gamer getting control of the captain

[hemingway 7,631]

Although I have contributed to the discussion on Watts, it really is becoming tiresome. He has to play on Friday night particularly after last weeks game. He is obviously going to play so lets hope he has a good game and justifies his spot. However, the match will be a test for the whole team not just Watts. I respect the views of Roos and the coaching staff in regard to his selection. I have great faith in Roos man-management.

[rjay 25,088]

Structure is vital for a good team and the fact that we are able to play Dawes in a key post directly protects Hogan from playing on two opponents. Whilst Dawes does not mark, he does a hell of a lot of grunt work and looks to compete and bring the ball down extremely well, but at the end of the day we have no better replacement for either of Gawn or Watts and not even by a short margin, by the length of the straight, so why would we bother dropping either.

Hogan was continually against 2 opponents last week, they kept dropping players back. The opposition know that Dawes isn't a threat and disregard him. If we want structure we might as well get a statue for all the benefit he is giving us at the moment.

[Mad_Melbourne 877]

Hogan was continually against 2 opponents last week, they kept dropping players back. The opposition know that Dawes isn't a threat and disregard him. If we want structure we might as well get a statue for all the benefit he is giving us at the moment.

Players drop off their opponents all the time in an attempt to effect the contest, because Howe was doing so and taking marks in front of Walker does not mean that they were playing two on him, but watch matches from last year and see that they genuinelly would post two defenders on Dawes.

[rjay 25,088]

Players drop off their opponents all the time in an attempt to effect the contest, because Howe was doing so and taking marks in front of Walker does not mean that they were playing two on him, but watch matches from last year and see that they genuinelly would post two defenders on Dawes.

Forget last year, the problem at the moment is that Dawes is not giving us anywhere near enough. He will probably get another chance this week. lets hope he stands up.

[Webber 10,538]

This is interesting - of course, nobody is exactly the same as anybody else. If another player is suggested, there will immediately be a whole lot of quite correct objections on the basis of differences between them and Watts.

But then what about Brian Wilson who used to go down in a heap with an "injury" more than a lot liked? "Ah, ya down again son!" in a Foghorn Leghorn voice... He was a discard from two clubs at the age of 20, but a star for us for years after. Great contributor - with this downright cringey peculiarity. What about the great Allan Jakovitch, who was not entirely trusted I'd say, because of his idiosyncracies - never fit, was one of them. We kept him in the Reserves, kicking huge bags of goals, for far too long before he got into the seniors. How can you be a footballer if you won't get fit? But he proved you could. Plenty of others come to mind, lacking a presumed non-negotiable. Tiger Crosswell was considered odd. Doull certainly was. Actually, think of the history of discards - people who didn't quite fit the moulds. Diesel Williams, or Ablett senior, for example. Brett Lovett.

Even the great Robbie Flower was told yes, he could train if he liked - but really we were looking for good players - the presumption being that without the physique or the mongrel you weren't going to be up to much in AFL. I know that was before we saw what he could do, but it is a true fact that Melbourne supporters in the outer were calling for him to be taken off - and a lot more than once - before half-time in his first game. People looked at what was there and when it didn't fit their mental image they scorned it.

So, what should we be looking for in a comparison, a precedent, to justify our having faith in Jack Watts? (Experts that we are... ) Hawkins keeps getting mentioned - Geelong persevered with an over-sized underperformer for a long time while they were right at the top. But, obviously, no-one is going to be exactly like Jack Watts. What can be said is that Watts is involved in goals more often than a lot of other slow-developing players have been. His so-called softness does not prevent his contributing, no matter how much it sticks out in the minds of supporters.

But everyone's unique - knowing that was one of Paul Roos' great attributes, and thank goodness we got him! Neeld must have virtually destroyed a lot of individuals at Melbourne. Why don't we just trust the Roos as an authority on the value of Watts? Spectate, take notice, and learn what we don't already know?

Brilliant post.

[Mad_Melbourne 877]

Forget last year, the problem at the moment is that Dawes is not giving us anywhere near enough. He will probably get another chance this week. lets hope he stands up.

Understand where you are coming from, but the whole basis that two players on Hogan would be completely redundant for his development was my point.

Pederson, Gawn, Fitzy who are all in the 2s would not provide more of a contest/take the heat away from Hogan.

I just don't honestly understand how people can't see the value Dawes provides regardless of impact on the scoreboard.

[Vagg 2,439]

Actually I think you were probably the best Bobby. I would be happy to see you on the flank today or tunna or barrie, but you might have to cut out the smokes, post training beers, hamburgers and do some extra laps of the oval in order to play as a defensive forward and to learn to run both ways. And you would have to learn all about structures and playing your role. And just as importantly learn the new football lingo so you can follow the coaches instructions and those team mates directing traffic. However, I reckon you would tell them all to get stuffed and just go out and carve them up in your own laconic way.

Now, look here, Ernie!! Just because most of the posters on here are barely out of nappies and wouldn't have the foggiest idea about us great players of the past, it doesn't give you the right to rewrite history! I was CLEARLY far more talented than Bobby, a far better goal kicker, and WAY more important to the team! And, if there's anyone on here who really is so old that they remember us, and disagrees with my comments, then they are obviously suffering from senility!

So, just to put it clearly, Barrie Vagg was the greatest half forward flanker in the history of the MFC! (Written without even the slightest hint of modesty...)

[rjay 25,088]

Understand where you are coming from, but the whole basis that two players on Hogan would be completely redundant for his development was my point.

[Pedersen], Gawn, Fitzy who are all in the 2s would not provide more of a contest/take the heat away from Hogan.

I just don't honestly understand how people can't see the value Dawes provides regardless of impact on the scoreboard.

In current form I don't think he gives us any value. He might chase but rarely catches, he runs but to the wrong positions and he often doesn't create a contest because he is trying to get the easier ball over the back rather than leading up at it.

To me he really must lift or spend time at Casey. It's only my view 'Mad' and I wouldn't think I or my opinion is stupid, I just have a different take on Dawes value.

I think it would be good if he did the things you and others ascribe to him, forward pressure, taking the pressure off Hogan and as some stated until recently take the best defender. But he is not doing any of these things, I wish he would.

[Moneider96 1,045]

Wayne Carey is officially one of my favorite footy persons. Here's him having a go at Campbell Brown and Dickson regarding their Watts and Malthouse comments (unfortunately he tipped Richmond though):

http://www.afl.com.au/video/2015-04-23/carey-and-brown-split-on-anzac-day-blockbusters

[Mad_Melbourne 877]

I think it would be good if he did the things you and others ascribe to him, forward pressure, taking the pressure off Hogan and as some stated until recently take the best defender. But he is not doing any of these things, I wish he would.

The only major benefit I believe that Dawes provides is the fact that he is a key forward with much more experience and strength than a Hogan. I feel that he still does most of what you have said up here, but the biggest is take the pressure off Hogan. I think his value is often missed because everyone expects goals. His leadership on the field and instruction is vital for team balance.

My other major point is sure, if we had the luxury of multiple players of his calibre playing in the 2s then he could be dropped, but we don't. For the same reason I wouldn't drop Hogan if he was to fall in form, they both are more important playing 1s than 2s

[barneymfc 152]

Another perfect example of the type of thing Watts gets criticised for but for every other player in the side, it doesn't even get mentioned

All of a sudden being a hotheaded chimp and going in for some jumper punches is a quality that is so important it turns games

Give us a break please

dead right