Half the games we now play are official dead rubbers in terms of finals in 2014. Those games against contender, we won't win.

So for the 7th year in a row we enter the final rounds with:

1. the season over in terms of finals,

2. playing several bottom 8 clubs who have started to shelve players (GWS), or decided to "struggle" (WCE and Blues) so as to as low as is possible (having done this before).

3. a win making it harder to draft the players required to rise up the ladder.

4. obsessive interest in who we can draft or trade for, noting that a win means less currency in this realm.

5. Blowhard supporters getting on their high horse if some fans lose interest!

The way seasons pan out for bottom 8 teams results in ambivalence. Fans are stuck between two equally strong desires resulting in a feeling of being stuck and not caring. To be explicit these desires are

1. the desire to fight hard and win every game

2. the desire to draft and trade the best talent in the land to rise up the ladder

The AFL has these in opposition, resulting in "I don't care", or more accurately "I don't care because my desire to win is muted by my desire to rise."

Half the games we now play are official dead rubbers in terms of finals in 2014. Those games against contender, we won't win.

So for the 7th year in a row we enter the final rounds with:

1. the season over in terms of finals,

2. playing several bottom 8 clubs who have started to shelve players (GWS), or decided to "struggle" (WCE and Blues) so as to as low as is possible (having done this before).

3. a win making it harder to draft the players required to rise up the ladder.

4. obsessive interest in who we can draft or trade for, noting that a win means less currency in this realm.

5. Blowhard supporters getting on their high horse if some fans lose interest!

The way seasons pan out for bottom 8 teams results in ambivalence. Fans are stuck between two equally strong desires resulting in a feeling of being stuck and not caring. To be explicit these desires are

1. the desire to fight hard and win every game

2. the desire to draft and trade the best talent in the land to rise up the ladder

The AFL has these in opposition, resulting in "I don't care", or more accurately "I don't care because my desire to win is muted by my desire to rise."

Why????????????? I assume its the belief that they have more to play for. FFS we are playng for the future of the club.

Regarding your point 2, finishing last and in your words 'drafting and trading the best talent in the land' has worked a treat for us so far. It s not a guarantee and should not be an desired option. Getting the right player is stil as much about luck as science. Ollie Wines is a case in point.

Failing to trade and draft well in the past has nothing to do with what picks we had at our disposal at the time, and has even more limited relevance to our likely performance in this area going forward. Lots of clubs have finished last and built premierships on their drafting efforts (i.e. Hawthorn and Collingwood).

I'm not against those who voted "livid" to finishing last, there would be a short term pleasure in coming home with a wet sail. However, it would be at the cost of longer term benefits, which to me results in my being ambivalent and disengaged.

Different strokes for different folks.

I voted "I don't Care".

As long as we are trying to win, it doesn't matter where we finish. The lower we finish, the better draft pick we get but so what. History shows that picks 2, 3, 4 or 5 are just about as good as 1.

It's great that all clubs are still having a go. The AFL will beat their chests and claim that the warnings against tanking have been heeded; they will never acknowledge that tanking was a direct result of the Priority Pick ...

Failing to trade and draft well in the past has nothing to do with what picks we had at our disposal at the time, and has even more limited relevance to our likely performance in this area going forward. Lots of clubs have finished last and built premierships on their drafting efforts (i.e. Hawthorn and Collingwood).

I'm not against those who voted "livid" to finishing last, there would be a short term pleasure in coming home with a wet sail. However, it would be at the cost of longer term benefits, which to me results in my being ambivalent and disengaged.

Different strokes for different folks.

Interesting that you comments could be cut and paste into similar debates in the 2012. "Long term benfits" of loosing is a lie that we have bought into over the years. Collingwood and Hawthorn drafted well 10-12 years ago but the AFL is a very different place now. Ask Carlton how their early picks have gone? What about GWS or Gold Coast who have had access to more than we could ever hope for. There are way more fails than wins down this path and in the process the foundation of the club is erroded.

It is proven that an early draft pic is not guarantee of success. But hoping to fnish last to get one IMO is a guarantee of failiure.

I'll be upset.

I want us to try our best and beat GWS, hopefully beat Brisbane and have a crack in the other games.

If we finish last then the draft pick is the compensation. That's how it's meant to work. Not the other way around.

Interesting that you comments could be cut and paste into similar debates in the 2012. "Long term benfits" of loosing is a lie that we have bought into over the years. Collingwood and Hawthorn drafted well 10-12 years ago but the AFL is a very different place now. Ask Carlton how their early picks have gone? What about GWS or Gold Coast who have had access to more than we could ever hope for. There are way more fails than wins down this path and in the process the foundation of the club is erroded.

It is proven that an early draft pic is not guarantee of success. But hoping to fnish last to get one IMO is a guarantee of failiure.

Voting "I don't care" is NOT the same as "hoping to finish last". Not sure why you've assumed them to be the same.

You argument dismisses Pies and Hawks as irrelevant then conveniently claims the Blues example is relevant, all too convenient.

There are no guarantees in drafting. However, draft order gives those with earlier picks greater choices and as such are more valuable.

The fact that we have die hard demons on this forum seemingly happy with another poor season is disapointing. It smacks of a loosing club culture that is still in place. I doubt that any of the players would be thinking this way but obviously in the past this attitude was promulgated by the administration to the detriment of the club. We have been years in recovery from this.

None of us should ever accept this attitude around this club again. Winning the wooden spoon should be seen as the discrace that it is. I dont give a rats if we got the first three picks, nothing can compensate for the damage another rubbish year will do to the psyche of the playing group. Roos has said it time and time again, his biggest task is fixing the problem between the players ears.

I recon these last 5 rounds are critcal to the development of this team and can set us up for a good year next year or consign us to more misery.

Hopefully we beat Brisbane and GWS and can jag at least another win. To me that is the only acceptable outcome.

your reading between the lines BdD, 2 & 3 isn't 6. your multiplying rather than adding.

most people understand that we lack enough talent & also need to turn the list over to keep freshening it. the youth policy wasn't our downfall recently. it was how it was implemented that was the killer.

if your theory held water, the Hawks, Pies & Cats would have missed their recent flags. The key is to keep up morale & to show the players real hope, & also make them earn they're jumpers, so they feel great about their achievements & the club.

It isn't about accepting defeat at all, its about playing the game within the current rules of this code, as they are. they do need updating. but they are what they are.

Half the games we now play are official dead rubbers in terms of finals in 2014. Those games against contender, we won't win.

So for the 7th year in a row we enter the final rounds with:

1. the season over in terms of finals,

2. playing several bottom 8 clubs who have started to shelve players (GWS), or decided to "struggle" (WCE and Blues) so as to as low as is possible (having done this before).

3. a win making it harder to draft the players required to rise up the ladder.

4. obsessive interest in who we can draft or trade for, noting that a win means less currency in this realm.

5. Blowhard supporters getting on their high horse if some fans lose interest!

The way seasons pan out for bottom 8 teams results in ambivalence. Fans are stuck between two equally strong desires resulting in a feeling of being stuck and not caring. To be explicit these desires are

1. the desire to fight hard and win every game

2. the desire to draft and trade the best talent in the land to rise up the ladder

The AFL has these in opposition, resulting in "I don't care", or more accurately "I don't care because my desire to win is muted by my desire to rise."

exactly.

The point is we should care. Its not about being emotional its about setting standards and setting a club culture and gettng the players to believe. We can all agree we have improved in terms of defence but the ladder positon is not arbitary, it is the measure of perfomance for AFL teams. Finishing last is bad. It is bad for the players, bad for the club and bad for the supporters.

If we fiinish last this year it is arguable that we have gone backwards relative to the rest of the competition. Yes our percentage has improved but to what effect, a drop in ladder position, whoopty do. We are currently 6%age points from our position at the end of 2012. 5 more losses and we dont even make 2012 standards.

This is not up for debate, the figures dont lie. Without at least 2 and hopefully 3 wins we will have acheived very little other than narrowing our win/loss band width.

The figure which doesn't lie that you are neglecting is that we are not getting whacked by 10 goals every week this year. That implies we have improved with respect to the rest of the comp. It is more significant than St Kilda or some club fluking a win over some top club (when we failed to fluke the win by a few points) and thus putting us on the bottom. I can understand the emotion about being last, but I don't agree with it.

We are all agreed that we want to win as many games as possible in the coming weeks.

Interesting that you comments could be cut and paste into similar debates in the 2012. "Long term benfits" of loosing is a lie that we have bought into over the years. Collingwood and Hawthorn drafted well 10-12 years ago but the AFL is a very different place now. Ask Carlton how their early picks have gone? What about GWS or Gold Coast who have had access to more than we could ever hope for. There are way more fails than wins down this path and in the process the foundation of the club is erroded.

It is proven that an early draft pic is not guarantee of success. But hoping to fnish last to get one IMO is a guarantee of failiure.

It has nothing to do with 2012; but everything to do with knowledgeable people in charge, knowing how to lead this club.

the players lost faith in the leadership methods to get the club up. Roosy has had his first season & his first crack at trying to get this list of players to fire up. Now he knows who can, & who won't.

After this Roos first season is when the real build takes place. The most important list changes will be during this preseason. If ever a team was to get lower this year is the one.

in the past with CC in charge of our drafting we were on the down path like a YoYo, every 2nd year in the poorest drafts. then spendergas took charge & took us backwards, along with the well meaning off-field generals who got things terribly arz about.

this is the first time we've had 'state of the AFL art', generals leading our stocks. who are obviously putting their stock on contested type players, instead of Free Range chickens.

Rubbish. The recruiting team this year is the same as the last. Yes Roos will have a say on what he wants but they are people who have to deliver it to him. Todd Viney has done a good job but we and many other teams would gladly go back and take Wines over our earlier picks if we could.

There is no doubt we need to rebuild the list but getting pick 1 rather than pick 3 or 4 will likely make very little difference to the outcome. I agree its a fact that geting pick one gives you the best chance I just dont think the difference is significant. Its only my opinion but I think going into the break on back of an improved season in terms of competitiveness and wins is the lift this club needs.

You do know that last year was not 2012?

And that we had a different recruitment manager in 2012 than we do now (2014)?

Don't agree that theres no difference between Watts and Morton

Do agree that an improved season and wins lift clubs needs,

but then so do great recruits...

Every loss further risks losing young supporters forever. I know, my 6 year old grandson is wavering.

It is not as tho the Club can afford this - it is not as tho the Club has a healthy Junior membership.

"the Hawks game will be tough!" surely wins the award for Demonland Understatement of the Year.

However, it's a sign of our improvement this year that it was even written. Last year it would have read something like "the Hawks game will be a wipeout/an embarrassment/impossible to watch" (select whatever you think is most appropriate).

I've added an exclamation mark for you La Dee (for greater effect)

... The most worthless explanation mark

Every loss further risks losing young supporters forever. I know, my 6 year old grandson is wavering.

It is not as tho the Club can afford this - it is not as tho the Club has a healthy Junior membership.

yep, and every season of mediocrity risks losing old supporters forever. I know, my 73 year old father is wavering.

We're in a bind, can't afford to lose, cant afford to build...

I've already outlined how livid I will be if we finish last, but FFS it wont be half as upset as I get everytime I hear Chris from Caufield on SEN talking about the Dees

Rubbish. The recruiting team this year is the same as the last. Yes Roos will have a say on what he wants but they are people who have to deliver it to him. Todd Viney has done a good job but we and many other teams would gladly go back and take Wines over our earlier picks if we could.

There is no doubt we need to rebuild the list but getting pick 1 rather than pick 3 or 4 will likely make very little difference to the outcome. I agree its a fact that geting pick one gives you the best chance I just dont think the difference is significant. Its only my opinion but I think going into the break on back of an improved season in terms of competitiveness and wins is the lift this club needs.

You just don't get it, slow week, IMO we'll trade that pick, If its P-1 or P-2, we'll get a lot more for it than 3, 4 or 5.

I think we'd trade it, to get 2 players or more, from that one pick... in whats said to be a quality & deep draft.

Some teams up higher would love to fill their needs with a top gun. The Cats, Hawks, Freo, Suns, even Giants & Sainters, would all love Petracca, & no doubt would deal strongly.

you see Judd didn't do wonders for the Blues, nor Dustin Martin can't shoulder the tigers team. the Blues lack quality depth & as do the Tiges. 4 or 5 quality players are better value than 2.

yep, and every season of mediocrity risks losing old supporters forever. I know, my 73 year old father is wavering.

We're in a bind, can't afford to lose, cant afford to build...

here on earth the egg comes before the chicken. we're lucky we can go pluck an egg, when the chook isn't looking.

cheap wins mean zilch when many other teams are trawling. WC, blues, Saints, lets see how important they think lenny is in coming weeks. they could easily be 15th.

We have too build in all areas, but as we've seen quality beats everything. top CEO, top Coach & they need numerous top Kids to develop & some Top old heads as leaders.. this will see the wins arrive thru these people.

I've added an exclamation mark for you La Dee (for greater effect)

... The most worthless explanation mark

I like F Scott Fitzgerald's comment: "An exclamation mark is like laughing at your own jokes."

In my view, the modern equivalent is adding LOL, although having said that I've probably just offended a few posters...

I'm genuinely excited that we could finish with a few wins, and I'm definitely looking forward to taking my girls to Subi this year. But, I've been thinking recently, that a way for the AFL to have a strong Melbourne in this comp is for us to gain higher draft picks, and a way to do that could be...via the umpiring! I'm past getting angry with the umpiring now, I'm more focused on and interested to see if winnable games, which I reckon there are 4 of, are lost by momentum changing dubious decisions.

I don't want to finish last, I want to win, if we play lousy footy and win the spoon I'll be extremely disappointed. If we play to our best and lose to better teams or, "divine" intervention occurs, I still won't be happy, but I can cop that.

I am in furious agreement with Deeluded and Paul, there is no doubt that getting pick 1 and what ever we get for Chip if he goes will put us in a strong position to trade and will obviously give us a couple of chances to get the best player of the draft.

My point is that the benefit offered by having pick 1 as opposed to pick 4 is more about options than it is about any guarantee of picking the best players. There is every chance that we will acheve the industry average of getting recruiting right and while I havent done the figures I doubt it would be much more than 50%, way less when you start looking at getting that Judd, Swan, Buddy type player we need. The successful team dont rely on draft picks because it is so hit and miss they just buy the stars in.

Playing out a year under Roos and ending up with only 4 wins will place us in a worse position than 2012, 2011, 2010, 2009 and 2007 and I think the damage will be enormous that wont be repaired by pick one. The damage will be in terms of attracting sponsors, attracting members, getting a decent draw (financial), and reparing the damage to the players we have. It is the senior players we have now that need to drag the Dees up the ladder. We cant wait for no 1 draft picks to lead the charge. Melbourne is loosing all our best FA players when they come out of contract and the only way to halt this is to climb the ladder and give the boys hope and belief. Getting a draft pick 2 spots earlier will do nothing to stop the exodus.

Winning the wooden spoon is a path to joining the merry go round at the bottom of the ladder feeding the powerful clubs with early draft picks we have developed for them.

I'm genuinely excited that we could finish with a few wins, ...

Im assuming you actually meant.....a few MORE wins ? ( sorry couldnt resist )

Thank you bb

Playing out a year under Roos and ending up with only 4 wins will place us in a worse position than 2012, 2011, 2010, 2009 and 2007 and I think the damage will be enormous that wont be repaired by pick one. The damage will be in terms of attracting sponsors, attracting members, getting a decent draw (financial), and reparing the damage to the players we have. It is the senior players we have now that need to drag the Dees up the ladder. We cant wait for no 1 draft picks to lead the charge. Melbourne is loosing all our best FA players when they come out of contract and the only way to halt this is to climb the ladder and give the boys hope and belief. Getting a draft pick 2 spots earlier will do nothing to stop the exodus.

Winning the wooden spoon is a path to joining the merry go round at the bottom of the ladder feeding the powerful clubs with early draft picks we have developed for them.

Do you really think that finishing 16th reverses the threat of the above?

When are posters going to realise that while our form has improved - the MFC has had another terrible season.

Where we finish in the morbid milieu down the bottom is far less relevant to how we perform against the Hawks, in Perth, and against NM - and over and above those games - who we attract to the club in October.