Richmond 2014 = Melb 2011

[DeeSpencer 26,070]

Young promising team rebuilt by what appears to be a decent coach with a good future who slowly took a team from way down the bottom to a respectable place.

Melbourne 2010 looking on the way up. Don't make finals but look set to push for finals. Richmond 2013 finish 5th but crash out from the finals

Both teams playing an unsustainable confusing game plan and making twists in the off season to try and copy the premiers (Rich with Haw, Melb trying to implement a press)

Both teams smash bad teams but receive hidings against anyone of quality.

Both teams built upon shaky footballers with uncertain futures

Melbourne - Petterd, Wonaeamirri, Morton, Martin etc

Richmond - Petterd (lol), Vickery, Grigg

Both teams having players who show questionable leadership and off field trouble

Melb - Moloney and Jurrah, Rich - Martin and Jake King

I hope Richmond have learnt from the Bailey to Neeld debacle.

[InVINCEable 358]

Damn.....

[titan_uranus 25,042]

Let's hope Richmond 2015 = Melbourne 2012. That would be grand.

Their list is awful.

[angrydee 842]

Being an ersatz Hawthorn with a mediocre list doesn't pay

[Adam The God 30,403]

I can see the parallels. Apart from their ball use and the fact that their 'leaders' go missing too regularly, Richmond's biggest problem is the lack of book ends. Riewoldt is the only bloke who'd get a game for any other club and he may well be plying his trade (pardon the pun) elsewhere soon. Their KPP stocks are woeful and aside from Daniel Jackson, there isn't a consistent leader that can influence games for them. Cotchin is overrated, but classy, who goes missing for large periods of games and Martin, who could be one of the most damaging midfielders in the game, has still failed to build up a fitness base to allow him to run out four quarters in the middle.

I can see Richmond having one of their signature brainfades/implosions and sacking Hardwick this week or next and before we or probably they know it, they'll be in rebuild mode yet again.

They're in for a bit of pain over the next two to three years.

Edited May 31, 2014 by AdamFarr

[Melbournepotter 383]

Add to that the TV cameras showed vickery I in the stands having laugh and joke with those around him. May have just been unlucky to be shown at that time but not good to see if you're a supporter. Wasn't it Martin that was shown in that light for us a couple of years ago ?

[Guest]

I think some on here have pretty short memories.

Richmond could potentially go our way and have people trying to protect their little patch of earth by casting the blame onto others or they can stick fat and see the process through.

The destruction wrought on the MFC wasn't all due to a shortfall on the playing front.

Our downfall was mostly due to certain people at the club thinking that they knew better than the senior coach and when they got their chance to prove it by bringing in their own senior coach, they were shown to be all gong and no dinner. Add to the fact, as noble as Jimma's intentions were, we had an ailing president who probably should have resigned a lot earlier than he did. I think Big Jim meant well but we needed a full time president at the time. Jimmy's death as well was a huge blow to the club as he was the last uniting figure we had.
So far, Richmond hasn't had any of that happen. Benny Gale hasn't been potting Dimma behind the scenes as far as anyone knows. Peggy O'Neal hasn't done what most of the boring, crusty white men who have run our club have done by calling for 'accountability'. Compared to our circus from 2011 on, Richmond hasn't been half as bad.

Edited June 1, 2014 by Colin B. Flaubert

[Adzman 2,154]

Richmond have a playing group that lacks leadership on the field and control off the field. Cotchin is admirable but isn't surrounded by a committed and united group.

I expect Richmond will be harsh when evaluating their list and will spend to turn it around quickly. Expect them to be a player trade week.

[KingDingAling 3,758]

Add to that the TV cameras showed vickery I in the stands having laugh and joke with those around him. May have just been unlucky to be shown at that time but not good to see if you're a supporter. Wasn't it Martin that was shown in that light for us a couple of years ago ?

Vickery played pretty well in the VFL, so understandably he was in good spirits.

But in saying that, I also think VFL is about his level.

I think Dustin Martin is the only kid worth his pay check in that side.

[Slartibartfast 17,518]

Richmond are a long way from MFC circa 2011. But IMO they have made a fatal mistake which MFC did between 2007 and 2013. They have failed to recruit genuine midfielders.

I think we all pretty much accept that footy is won or lost in the midfield. For all Roos has been wonderful on the field it's the list management that has allowed him to succeed. From a midfield last year that had one mature mid he added Tyson, Vince, Cross, Riley, Michie from trades and then Salem and JKH from the draft. We also have Harmes. Now Salem and JKH are not genuine mids yet but that is without doubt where they will end up. We are now competitive.

Richmond recruited Cotchin and Martin with early draft picks but in the last few years have used their earlier picks on Vlaustin, Lennon, Conca and Ellis. Only Conca is a genuine mid with the others "flankers" who can run through the midfield. Richmonds success last year came from an extraordinary year from Cotchin backed up by Deledio and Martin. Cotchin and Deledio have been shadows of their 2013 form and Richmond have no other running midfielders. That is very simply their issue. If Deledio and particularly Cotchin come good they will be very dangerous because they win ball and feed it to damaging running half backs.

Richmond didn't learn from MFC. Our early picks through the Prendergast years were awful. Blease, Strauss, Tapscott, Bennell and even Trengove to a degree were not genuine mids. They were all good TAC players but they weren't the genuine mids like Shuey, Beams, Redden and Sloane who were all available to us.

We now have a glut of midfielders. Riley, M Jones, Michie, Evans and McKenzie are all fighting for one or two spots. And it will get harder as Toumpas improves and Salem develops into a mid. And if JKH continues the way he is he'll be a top notch mid.

Riley, Michie,Evans and McKenzie who are all very fringe for us would all get games for Richmond. In any one week at least 2 or three would play.

Roos was both very good and lucky. Vince became available and because of Roos was happy to come to MFC and Roos was willing to pay reasonable compensation to Adelaide. Roos was happy to do the Tyson deal where many wouldn't have. Cross was available for nothing as was Riley. For all that Neeld is criticized for the Rodan's of this world I don't think he had the same opportunity as Roos. There just wasn't the same talent available for Neeld nor did he have the lure of Roos.

As for Richmond they need to do what we did last year and get a midfield. I'd be surprised if someone like Jordie didn't end up there.

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

I've always thought Deledio is a good player, yet overrated by many at the same time.

I think that Cotchin has the potential to be a top five player, but I don't see him as a leader.

[AllMyTeamsAreWank 564]

I made this exact comment last night. I reckon you're on the money.

[dee-luded 2,959]

Young promising team rebuilt by what appears to be a decent coach with a good future who slowly took a team from way down the bottom to a respectable place.

Melbourne 2010 looking on the way up. Don't make finals but look set to push for finals. Richmond 2013 finish 5th but crash out from the finals

Both teams playing an unsustainable confusing game plan and making twists in the off season to try and copy the premiers (Rich with Haw, Melb trying to implement a press)

Both teams smash bad teams but receive hidings against anyone of quality.

Both teams built upon shaky footballers with uncertain futures

Melbourne - Petterd, Wonaeamirri, Morton, Martin etc

Richmond - Petterd (lol), Vickery, Grigg

Both teams having players who show questionable leadership and off field trouble

Melb - Moloney and Jurrah, Rich - Martin and Jake King

I hope Richmond have learnt from the Bailey to Neeld debacle.

exactly what I was thinking last night when I watched them. devoid of confidence, gameplan out the window, getting sucked to deep inside the contest crashing into one another for the inside ball, poor use of ball, turnovers galore, they're own worst enemies.

time to pull it back a bit, slow it down, & maintain possession; like we did at the start of the season. slowly build again from there. Richmond have done everything well in their rebuild except the biggest thing, rework their Culture.

.... now they're threads are starting to unwind under pressure.

[dee-luded 2,959]

I've always thought Deledio is a good player, yet overrated by many at the same time.

I think that Cotchin has the potential to be a top five player, but I don't see him as a leader.

same with deledio, think he's a bit soft as an AFL player.

cotchin looks to be stagnating.

[Devil In Disguise 2,278]

They are eating their own over at Puntroadend. Makes such good reading. lol

[Adam The God 30,403]

Add to that the TV cameras showed vickery I in the stands having laugh and joke with those around him. May have just been unlucky to be shown at that time but not good to see if you're a supporter. Wasn't it Martin that was shown in that light for us a couple of years ago ?

Yeah, that kept happening to us when we were down. Happened a couple of times. We'd be down by 10 goals and the cameras would cut to MFC players in the stands laughing. We copped a bit of press for that. I wonder if Richmond will. Probably not.

[Adam The God 30,403]

I think some on here have pretty short memories.

Richmond could potentially go our way and have people trying to protect their little patch of earth by casting the blame onto others or they can stick fat and see the process through.

The destruction wrought on the MFC wasn't all due to a shortfall on the playing front.

Our downfall was mostly due to certain people at the club thinking that they knew better than the senior coach and when they got their chance to prove it by bringing in their own senior coach, they were shown to be all gong and no dinner. Add to the fact, as noble as Jimma's intentions were, we had an ailing president who probably should have resigned a lot earlier than he did. I think Big Jim meant well but we needed a full time president at the time. Jimmy's death as well was a huge blow to the club as he was the last uniting figure we had.

So far, Richmond hasn't had any of that happen. Benny Gale hasn't been potting Dimma behind the scenes as far as anyone knows. Peggy O'Neal hasn't done what most of the boring, crusty white men who have run our club have done by calling for 'accountability'. Compared to our circus from 2011 on, Richmond hasn't been half as bad.

I think the comparison between playing lists and seeming onfield and offfield cultures. They seem to have more stability in administration.

Richmond are a long way from MFC circa 2011. But IMO they have made a fatal mistake which MFC did between 2007 and 2013. They have failed to recruit genuine midfielders.

I think we all pretty much accept that footy is won or lost in the midfield. For all Roos has been wonderful on the field it's the list management that has allowed him to succeed. From a midfield last year that had one mature mid he added Tyson, Vince, Cross, Riley, Michie from trades and then Salem and JKH from the draft. We also have Harmes. Now Salem and JKH are not genuine mids yet but that is without doubt where they will end up. We are now competitive.

Richmond recruited Cotchin and Martin with early draft picks but in the last few years have used their earlier picks on Vlaustin, Lennon, Conca and Ellis. Only Conca is a genuine mid with the others "flankers" who can run through the midfield. Richmonds success last year came from an extraordinary year from Cotchin backed up by Deledio and Martin. Cotchin and Deledio have been shadows of their 2013 form and Richmond have no other running midfielders. That is very simply their issue. If Deledio and particularly Cotchin come good they will be very dangerous because they win ball and feed it to damaging running half backs.

Richmond didn't learn from MFC. Our early picks through the Prendergast years were awful. Blease, Strauss, Tapscott, Bennell and even Trengove to a degree were not genuine mids. They were all good TAC players but they weren't the genuine mids like Shuey, Beams, Redden and Sloane who were all available to us.

We now have a glut of midfielders. Riley, M Jones, Michie, Evans and McKenzie are all fighting for one or two spots. And it will get harder as Toumpas improves and Salem develops into a mid. And if JKH continues the way he is he'll be a top notch mid.

Riley, Michie,Evans and McKenzie who are all very fringe for us would all get games for Richmond. In any one week at least 2 or three would play.

Roos was both very good and lucky. Vince became available and because of Roos was happy to come to MFC and Roos was willing to pay reasonable compensation to Adelaide. Roos was happy to do the Tyson deal where many wouldn't have. Cross was available for nothing as was Riley. For all that Neeld is criticized for the Rodan's of this world I don't think he had the same opportunity as Roos. There just wasn't the same talent available for Neeld nor did he have the lure of Roos.

As for Richmond they need to do what we did last year and get a midfield. I'd be surprised if someone like Jordie didn't end up there.

I think competition will heat up further in 2015, because we'll add more midfielders to that list. I, like many, would love a GWS midfielder. ie. Shiel or Treloar. That's what we need to keep on doing. Target genuine midfielders, as you rightfully point out, BB. I think come the end of this year, we will be on the up, no longer regarded as a spirited team, but a really well drilled, competitive team on the rise. This along with the Roos pull factor will hopefully entice a gem from GWS and/or another opposition club.

[Wadda We Sing 10,685]

False dawn for the tigers. Another rebuild is coming for them I feel. We have had several rebuilds since 2007. We al know the pain and sorry to say Tigres but your rebuild starts in the second half of this season.

[Ted Lasso 19,549]

They should trade Jack rewoldt, good player but publicly questioning their plan is shocking, trade him to Freo for a couple of solid players or GWS for some good young talent

[What 18,810]

LOL @ the Tigers topping up with below average recycled players after they won 0 finals last season after being bundled out by the 9th placed side

Such a mediocre club

[Guest]

I think the comparison between playing lists and seeming onfield and offfield cultures. They seem to have more stability in administration.

I think there is a comparison there perhaps on playing lists. I would say though that the reasons we came to pieces were more than our playing list.

[SaberFang 7,151]

LOL @ the Tigers topping up with below average recycled players after they won 0 finals last season after being bundled out by the 9th placed side

Such a mediocre club

Whenever I lament our recruitment, I always remember how much worse Carlton and Richmond's has been. Awful, awful list management. Hampson has to be the worst trade for a second rounder of all time?

[Scoop Junior 3,513]

I think the old saying 'things are never as good or as bad as they seem' applies to Richmond. I don't think they're as bad as they are currently playing and at the same time I think they probably overachieved last year in finishing 5th.

BB has highlighted the midfield problem well. However I think their lack of quality KPPs is really costing them as well.

Riewoldt is a very good key forward, but not a great one. Vickery and Griffiths haven't yet come on. So basically you shut down Riewoldt (which is not as hard a task as some think) and they don't really have any other key forward capable of impacting a game. So there's the forward line done.

Down back, Chaplain is looking close to the end, Rance is a decent key back (but a bit overrated IMO) and Astbury who has played well this year is now out for a while. So down back they are fragile as well.

Last year their ball movement was spectacular at times but I watched last night's game and I couldn't believe the number of errors they make in their ball movement - whether it's a skill error or a decisional error. It was the same when we played them. Confidence is obviously a big thing in footy but I find it difficult to understand how their ball use can completely drop off the cliff in the space of one pre-season.

[Adam The God 30,403]

I think there is a comparison there perhaps on playing lists. I would say though that the reasons we came to pieces were more than our playing list.

Agreed. Coaching and administrative white-anting.

[Adam The God 30,403]

I think the old saying 'things are never as good or as bad as they seem' applies to Richmond. I don't think they're as bad as they are currently playing and at the same time I think they probably overachieved last year in finishing 5th.

BB has highlighted the midfield problem well. However I think their lack of quality KPPs is really costing them as well.

Riewoldt is a very good key forward, but not a great one. Vickery and Griffiths haven't yet come on. So basically you shut down Riewoldt (which is not as hard a task as some think) and they don't really have any other key forward capable of impacting a game. So there's the forward line done.

Down back, Chaplain is looking close to the end, Rance is a decent key back (but a bit overrated IMO) and Astbury who has played well this year is now out for a while. So down back they are fragile as well.

Last year their ball movement was spectacular at times but I watched last night's game and I couldn't believe the number of errors they make in their ball movement - whether it's a skill error or a decisional error. It was the same when we played them. Confidence is obviously a big thing in footy but I find it difficult to understand how their ball use can completely drop off the cliff in the space of one pre-season.

The same way ours can improve in that time. It has to be the coaching and has to be in some small or large part, the playing group. Did the playing group get ahead of themselves? Did the coaches get ahead of themselves?