At risk of breaching the old rule about not arguing with fools, Watts is a very good pack mark up forward and an equally good floating backman. I did get it right.

People call him a soft [censored] because he often looks like he is being lazy and doesn't lay a great tackle, which is a completely different issue.

I disagree, I don't think he puts his body on the line enough, Leo Barry like, I think Melbourne supporters and others would respect him much more if we could see a bit of this. But you seem to think he has been doing this "for years!" ...and it's not just because he doesn't lay a great tackle that people call him soft

No, Watts isn't a good pack mark, unless he gets a run at it and can use his leap from behind, and even then there will nearly always only be one other player involved. Jostling, bustling among a group of 3 or more and then dragging down the mark isn't Watts go at all. So I suppose it depends on your definition, but I certainly don't consider Watts a good pack mark. He has done it, against Richmond a few years ago and possibly Freo, but it's an absolute rarity.

And no, I don't call Watts soft because of his tackling and laziness. There have been many reasons articulated over the years and most of it revolves around his hesitancy in certain high marking situations, which expose ones midriff, etc.

Must say old chap, very nice to read your honest opinion of Watts. I would love to see him cop a hit to the ribs and for him to jump straight back to his feet, even better I would love to see give out a few hits!!!

How many pack marks have you taken ? Im sure JW wouldn't give a flying toss how you rate him most people would've chucked it in after the crap he's copped but he has something that you most likely lack and that's work ethic and a brain!

Dont get upset about it, it's a discussion mate. If a player doesn't care what his supporters think about him as a player, then he is probably playing for the wrong club.

well, this afternoon wasn't fun, was it.

the form of the pre-season has been pretty interesting, to say the least, with two pretty encouraging performances followed by a howler, which was the only one i've been at, so unfortunately it's my lasting impression of the start of the year.

watched just short of three quarters today, and i think that the old habits of no defensive running and lack of spread from the contest were back again. definitely a reality check, for the players as much as the supporters. all the regular suspects who just coast through games were back to their worst today. can't see roos playing them if that's how they're going to react to adversity.

one thing seems pretty clear - georgiou will be upgraded.

current best guess squad of 25:

B: Georgiou - Frawley - Dunn
HB: Grimes - McDonald - Terlich
C: Watts - N Jones - Trengove
HF: MIchie - Pedersen - Blease
F: Fitzpatrick - Howe - Byrnes
Foll: Spencer - Tyson - Vince
I/C: McKenzie - Cross - Kennedy-Harris
Sub: Viney
Emerg: M Jones - Clisby - Bail

and i reckon there's about nine players (or eleven if i'm being harsh, and feeling vindictive towards other players) in that lot who i doubt would get a game at any other club.

i don't know how i feel about naming them on a forum like this.

but it's no wonder we have been as poor as we've been over the last seven seasons.

i'm so sick of it.

whoever is chosen in the final 22 for the game against the aints better put in a hell of a lot more effort than i saw this afternoon.

Edited March 8, 201411 yr by DemonAndrew

72 year old Lenny Hayes was the Saints best player yesterday and Montagna was also named in their best.

Them not playing round 1 is massive.

one thing seems pretty clear - georgiou will be upgraded.

current best guess squad of 25:

B: Georgiou - Frawley - Dunn

HB: Grimes - McDonald - Terlich

C: Watts - N Jones - Trengove

HF: MIchie - Pedersen - Blease

F: Fitzpatrick - Howe - Byrnes

Foll: Spencer - Tyson - Vince

I/C: McKenzie - Cross - Kennedy-Harris

Sub: Viney

Emerg: M Jones - Clisby - Bail

and i reckon there's about nine players (or eleven if i'm being harsh, and feeling vindictive towards other players) in that lot who i doubt would get a game at any other club.

i don't know how i feel about naming them on a forum like this.

.

Think you've got the team pretty right or the squad at least.

The last defender/forward/midfield spot is the hardest to pick. And I reckon I can name the guys you are talking about, Terlich, Watts, Blease, Byrnes, Pedersen, Fitzpatrick, McKenzie, JKH (youth), Viney (lack of match fitness). Plus the emergencies. And maybe Spencer in most teams.

Either way Roos has to mainly work on the players minds before round 1 now. Every one of them should feel confident they can beat their individual opponents against the saints and from there it should at least be a close game. Key position wise yes we are missing our forward line but the saints key defenders are also not proven AFL performers. Our defenders should feel confident that they did well against Richmond and Geelong and they wont have a swarming Hawthorn forward line with A+ delivery.

I'm hoping we got beat by the class of Hawthorn as much as their relentless pressure. The saints might bring some pressure but as long as we stand up and give some back to them they can't bring the class of play Hawthorn did.

Bail. Pederson JKH

Howe. Fitzpatrick Toumpas

Watts. Viney. Vince

Dunn Mcdonald Grimes

Trengove Frawley Terlich

Spencer Jones. Tyson

Blease,Michie,Cross,Georgiou

Pretty confident this Will be close to how they will line up now.

I don't think Toumpas, Viney, JKH and Blease will play. I'd add Clisby, Kent (if healthy), Byrnes, M Jones to your squad,

Ed: Forgot to delete JKH.

Edited March 9, 201411 yr by Mono

I don't think Toumpas, Viney, JKH and Blease will play. I'd add Clisby, Kent (if healthy), Byrnes, M Jones to your squad,

Ed: Forgot to delete JKH.

We're in trouble if Byrnes is getting a game round 1.

We're in trouble if Byrnes is getting a game round 1.

Especially ahead of JKH

Especially ahead of JKH

that would be the 18 year old with a grand total of zero AFL games

We're in trouble if Byrnes is getting a game round 1.

We are in trouble.

We are not a good team.

I know some on here thought that Roos would come in like Captain Planet and make thing suddenly work but games like yesterday are going to happen to this team.

It is going to take time - especially with the game plan; it does not suit our playing list because it puts an emphasis, a requirement, on skills and hard and bold running into space.

Our skills are far from refined and our confidence to run to position has been shot by years of being hammered.

The rewards will be swift when skills and confidence are brought into the team by seasoned bodies - but until then - we are not a good team.

that would be the 18 year old with a grand total of zero AFL games

Who has more skill and talent than the guy who couldn't get a game with Geelong and who was back playing on the VFL. And who won't be on our list next year....

We are in trouble.

We are not a good team.

I know some on here thought that Roos would come in like Captain Planet and make thing suddenly work but games like yesterday are going to happen to this team.

It is going to take time - especially with the game plan; it does not suit our playing list because it puts an emphasis, a requirement, on skills and hard and bold running into space.

Our skills are far from refined and our confidence to run to position has been shot by years of being hammered.

The rewards will be swift when skills and confidence are brought into the team by seasoned bodies - but until then - we are not a good team.

Don't take too much out of that game yesterday, it was 1 game and it was a practice match, it wasn't even a NAB Challenge game. It's all about round 1.

We are in trouble.

We are not a good team.

I know some on here thought that Roos would come in like Captain Planet and make thing suddenly work but games like yesterday are going to happen to this team.

It is going to take time - especially with the game plan; it does not suit our playing list because it puts an emphasis, a requirement, on skills and hard and bold running into space.

Our skills are far from refined and our confidence to run to position has been shot by years of being hammered.

The rewards will be swift when skills and confidence are brought into the team by seasoned bodies - but until then - we are not a good team.

There was clearly a change in game plan over the NAB Challenge and the boys did well by controlling the ball, apart from actually moving the ball inside 50, but there was a good display of skills and structure against both Richmond and Geelong.

Who has more skill and talent than the guy who couldn't get a game with Geelong and who was back playing on the VFL. And who won't be on our list next year....

yes I'm sure if we just chuck these kids out there they will all turn out to be club champions just like Trengove, Morton, Watts, Toumpas, Gysberts yaddayaddayadda so much realised potential at this club

Edited March 9, 201411 yr by Curry & Beer

that would be the 18 year old with a grand total of zero AFL games

Doesnt matter how many games youve played mate.......

He has had a better pre season than byrnes and is ready to go.

On that logic you wouldnt play hogan if fit.

yes I'm sure if we just chuck these kids out there they will all turn out to be club champions just like Trengove, Morton, Watts, Toumpas, Gysberts yaddayaddayadda so much realised potential at this club

And at some stage these kids must be given game time to develop especially ahead of Byrnes who is offers FA on the ground and will be delisted at the end of the year. Tell me what is the point in playing Byrnes ahead of others like JkH especially looking into 2015 and beyond.

I'm not pumping up Byrnes or downgrading JKH. I am just sick to death of reading on this forum year after year how good some kid is and never actually seeing the results of it. Everything at this club is just B or C grade, when our players hit their peak they are always a rung below the competition and there is no reason to suggest anything is going to change for JKH, Hogan, Salem or any other sucker unlucky enough to be drafted by this organisation. SICK OF IT!

And at some stage these kids must be given game time to develop especially ahead of Byrnes who is offers FA on the ground and will be delisted at the end of the year. Tell me what is the point in playing Byrnes ahead of others like JkH especially looking into 2015 and beyond.

The point is that this 'play the kids at all costs' is a road we have been going down for 8 years and has produced the worst result imaginable. PLay them when they deserve to be in AFL match and increase the chances of winning with a bit of experience. Again, don't rate Byrnes at all but this auto-selection of kids has to stop

The point is that this 'play the kids at all costs' is a road we have been going down for 8 years and has produced the worst result imaginable. PLay them when they deserve to be in AFL match and increase the chances of winning with a bit of experience. Again, don't rate Byrnes at all but this auto-selection of kids has to stop

I think a lot on here share your hurt.

I know I do..... ^^^

that would be the 18 year old with a grand total of zero AFL games

And ten times more ability than the other bloke.

The point is that this 'play the kids at all costs' is a road we have been going down for 8 years and has produced the worst result imaginable. PLay them when they deserve to be in AFL match and increase the chances of winning with a bit of experience. Again, don't rate Byrnes at all but this auto-selection of kids has to stop

We are talking about playing one kid in the first game. He has played better than the other bloke. He has pace. He can make a goal from nothing. He will turn it over far less than the other bloke. He has a future and the other bloke doesn't.

I don't see any auto selection going on. The others will wait their time and have to prove themselves.

PS. I will bet the Saints and most clubs play at least one kid in round 1.

Edited March 9, 201411 yr by Redleg

I reckon jay Kennedy-harris should play round 1 on form, Toumpas maybe needs a stint in the VFL

I reckon jay Kennedy-harris should play round 1 on form, Toumpas maybe needs a stint in the VFL

Two years?