On 19/07/2014 at 13:05, Pennant St Dee said:

Depending on Frawley leaving and possible compo, 1 for today and 1 for tomorrow, trade 1 and keep 1.

If Chip leaves then two Tyson deals would do me!

  On 20/07/2014 at 22:55, stevethemanjordan said:

Nat Fyfe and Tom Lonergan skinny class?

I'm sorry DL but building a hard culture has got nothing to do with drafting bigger bodied players...

it has both stmj

hard culture starts with the basics of wanting to go at the opposition, to tackle, to hurt, to chase, etc... then from there, mental toughness comes into the picture, after the basics. concentration under pressure, focus, those bits need to be in the package.

size/strength/weight is a bonus in this picture.

but we need NOW with our main targets. if we get Stretch in Rnd 3? we need to make sure our early selections have the WANT to Go-Hard, & the Want to hurt opposition physically, & on the scoreboard as well.

This is what I'm on about, the lightweights don't have the bodies yet, to hurt the oppo' physically yet. there are the odd exceptions to this. morton & bennell do not come to mind in this scenario.

save the real outsiders for 2 Yrs time, where we can,,, Stretch accepted. build the Go-Hard attitudes Now, & let the current lollipop-man players go to Casey, or stay OFF our list.

we do not need more 'only outside' types on our list...

  On 21/07/2014 at 01:17, dee-luded said:

it has both stmj

hard culture starts with the basics of wanting to go at the opposition, to tackle, to hurt, to chase, etc... then from there, mental toughness comes into the picture, after the basics. concentration under pressure, focus, those bits need to be in the package.

size/strength/weight is a bonus in this picture.

but we need NOW with our main targets. if we get Stretch in Rnd 3? we need to make sure our early selections have the WANT to Go-Hard, & the Want to hurt opposition physically, & on the scoreboard as well.

This is what I'm on about, the lightweights don't have the bodies yet, to hurt the oppo' physically yet. there are the odd exceptions to this. morton & bennell do not come to mind in this scenario.

save the real outsiders for 2 Yrs time, where we can,,, Stretch accepted. build the Go-Hard attitudes Now, & let the current lollipop-man players go to Casey, or stay OFF our list.

we do not need more 'only outside' types on our list...

Wanting to go hard at the opposition, to tackle, to hurt and to chase STARTS in your head. It's a psychological thing.

Being physically bigger or stronger in the body will sometimes HELP your psychology.

Being a smaller build or a player who's attributes are strongest outside of the contest does not equate to that particular player being 'soft'.

Just like having the biggest body doesn't automatically make you the hardest bloke on the field.

Culture is a seperate issue and word altogether and I think I'll leave it there.

Edited July 21, 201410 yr by stevethemanjordan

Fyfe is a great example of a player who was never built like a bull, but perhaps had a strong desire to compete in all facets of the game before he reached AFL level.

As for the culture side of things. Freo are now a club who through the appointment of Ross Lyon and the help of their senior leaders and players have instilled a hugely competitive environment and 'culture'. Fyfe's improvement as a player, he's body-shape change and the psychological element to his game will have changed without doubt from being brought up in an environment like that. How much? We'll never know.

Had he been drafted to the Dees, would he be the competitive beast he is today? Would he be the player he is today?

We won't know, but I doubt it.

Culture is formed at a club. Bringing players into clubs with the right attitude traits will help form a clubs culture/environment along with a coach and a whole host of other people.

But players with a competitive desire to win any and every contest and to chase and tackle come in all shapes and sizes. It's not about drafting bigger-bodied vs smaller- bodied. Especially at under 18 level. We see how many bodies change once these players have pre-season after pre-season. The Cale Morton/Lucas Cook/Jordan Gysberts are usually exceptions to the rule. But they were also players who clearly had frail minds, not fantastic competitive spirit and were brought up in the poorest club culture that has ever existed within the AFL.

Triple Whammy.

Edited July 21, 201410 yr by stevethemanjordan

  On 21/07/2014 at 05:01, stevethemanjordan said:

Wanting to go hard at the opposition, to tackle, to hurt and to chase STARTS in your head. It's a psychological thing.

Being physically bigger or stronger in the body will sometimes HELP your psychology.

Being a smaller build or a player who's attributes are strongest outside of the contest does not equate to that particular player being 'soft'.

Just like having the biggest body doesn't automatically make you the hardest bloke on the field.

Culture is a seperate issue and word altogether and I think I'll leave it there.

I haven't labelled anyone soft stmj... I'm trying to say what I would like the club to do re changing our culture, is to bed down the New culture with players who already have the wanton physical mental psyche, which you yourself just mentioned, to do the physical hunting.

playing footy isn't soft..... BUT by AFL standards, there are some Soft AFL players about. & We've had way too many of them, over the last 12 Yrs..

To bed in the harder culture, we should refrain from 'the skilled but timid outside type players' for a couple of years; save for father sons.

Just wondering how the father son rule works for instance, say we trade our 3rd and possibly 4th pick for proven players with other clubs. The another club after our first 2 picks bids on stretch can we then use of 5th or what ever next pick to get him? If so we could perhaps do a package deal with GWS or some other club to swap 2rd, 3rd and and possibly 4th pick for three or more good players

  On 21/07/2014 at 08:46, Deecisive said:

Just wondering how the father son rule works for instance, say we trade our 3rd and possibly 4th pick for proven players with other clubs. The another club after our first 2 picks bids on stretch can we then use of 5th or what ever next pick to get him? If so we could perhaps do a package deal with GWS or some other club to swap 2rd, 3rd and and possibly 4th pick for three or more good players

the bidding process takes place before the trade and draft period so we have to commit to the pick we are going to use before that time.

  On 19/07/2014 at 12:29, spirit of norm smith said:

Roos will look at ready to go young mids.

We cannot take punts on skinny kids given our shocking record on skinny non developers. Cannot believe we would continue on Grgic types.

I think we'll only go to the draft if we can't find a suitable trade for our first and/or second pick. Obviously, we'll draft after the first round, but I can see him trading picks all over the place for recycled players. It's what I'd do and given his history, that's what I expect he'll do if the players are out there.

  On 12/07/2014 at 21:33, Whispering_Jack said:

It's interesting to see that McCartin kicked 7 goals and Petracca 5 for their respective TAC Cup sides yesterday. Both made their teams' best player list in their first games back after the Under 18 championships. Goddard was among the best for the Geelong Falcons too.

Yes, we did well with the Tyson/Pick 9 deal but I'm wondering why so many people are quick to shun the potential top five picks when we're crying out for star quality players?

Despite the examples of the odd failure here and there, the stats show that you're more likely to pick up an elite player with a top 10 pick than with picks 11 to 20.

If we trade out of a top 3 or 4 pick this time it's going to have to be a super deal as far as I'm concerned.

One of the main issues I have with the "top pick = potential elite" is are these kids that good or are they only that good compared to the other kids they're playing against?

  On 22/07/2014 at 01:35, Dr. Gonzo said:

One of the main issues I have with the "top pick = potential elite" is are these kids that good or are they only that good compared to the other kids they're playing against?

Playing against lessor matured kids.

PR likes to recruit either a top class athletic type of kid or he would rather let another club mature and develop a player for him.

Thats why hes a master of trades.{let somebody else take the risk}we will pick up the right player.

  On 22/07/2014 at 01:35, Dr. Gonzo said:

One of the main issues I have with the "top pick = potential elite" is are these kids that good or are they only that good compared to the other kids they're playing against?

The eternal question.

I had doubts that Wines would be able to monster opponents like he did the other kids at junior level.

Sometimes you get a Wines, sometimes you get a Tapscott/Sylvia.

  On 22/07/2014 at 04:26, Machsy said:

The eternal question.

I had doubts that Wines would be able to monster opponents like he did the other kids at junior level.

Sometimes you get a Wines, sometimes you get a Tapscott/Sylvia.

Sylvia was more into being an AFL player than playing AFL.

  On 22/07/2014 at 04:26, Machsy said:

The eternal question.

I had doubts that Wines would be able to monster opponents like he did the other kids at junior level.

Sometimes you get a Wines, sometimes you get a Tapscott/Sylvia.

Yep but I don't just mean a size thing either. It's also do you get a Hodge/Judd or a Scully?

Watched Liam Duggan play ... definitely a top 10 pick. Highly skilled and damaging left footer who can kick 60 meters easily.

  On 22/07/2014 at 06:30, Deemotivated said:

Sylvia was more into being an AFL player than playing AFL.

Don't agree with this, I know it's been said on a number of times and I've said this a number of times. Col has never had the ability to be the player many seem to think he should have been and he's proving it this year as he has every year of his career. He's just not that good, he has no x-factor, he's a long kick to no one who can take an occasional good mark.

  On 22/07/2014 at 13:07, rjay said:

Don't agree with this, I know it's been said on a number of times and I've said this a number of times. Col has never had the ability to be the player many seem to think he should have been and he's proving it this year as he has every year of his career. He's just not that good, he has no x-factor, he's a long kick to no one who can take an occasional good mark.

Disagree. Sylvia had plenty of X-factor, which was his combination of power and endurance. His power was exceptional, but his ability to turn it into consistent performance was lacking.

  On 22/07/2014 at 13:11, Axis of Bob said:

Disagree. Sylvia had plenty of X-factor, which was his combination of power and endurance. His power was exceptional, but his ability to turn it into consistent performance was lacking.

his greatest quality was indifference . that and thinking he he was a given.

He was this side of nothing in reality. Its an opinion. We might all differ......

  On 22/07/2014 at 12:49, spirit of norm smith said:

Watched Liam Duggan play ... definitely a top 10 pick. Highly skilled and damaging left footer who can kick 60 meters easily.

Are you angling at wanting the MFC to take Duggan for our half back line, spirit? Hypothetically, let's say Roos and co rate the top 10 relatively evenly, we may try to trade one of our top picks for a player and a mid first rounder (ala the Tyson/Salem deal). It is entirely feasible that this could happen and we do require damaging foot skills...

Edited July 22, 201410 yr by AdamFarr

  On 22/07/2014 at 13:11, Axis of Bob said:

Disagree. Sylvia had plenty of X-factor, which was his combination of power and endurance. His power was exceptional, but his ability to turn it into consistent performance was lacking.

When did he show it 'Bob'?

He is a well built player who rarely used that strength at AFL level and I never saw the endurance you speak of.

He was (I think he may have played his last senior game) and is a very limited footballer who has been highly over rated by people who thought he had this amazing ability that he has never had. It wasn't in his mind, he just wasn't good enough.

  On 22/07/2014 at 13:33, rjay said:

When did he show it 'Bob'?

Constantly. He had other limitations that prevented him ever getting to that top level, but his power was never in question. It was exceptional and a real point of difference for him

Edited July 22, 201410 yr by Axis of Bob

  On 22/07/2014 at 13:50, Axis of Bob said:

Constantly. He had other limitations that prevented him ever getting to that top level, but his power was never in question. It was exceptional and a real point of difference for him

I was talking about his X-Factor and I never saw it, to me that is the ability to break a game apart. Cyril has it, Motlop has it, Gary senior had it...mercurial footballers who could turn a game with something out of the box. Col has never had this.

  On 22/07/2014 at 13:33, rjay said:

When did he show it 'Bob'?

Whenever we played Richmond.

Sylvia is not a natural footballer. He has great skills and is a terrific athlete with his high leaping and his strength and power, but he has never really displayed the pure football instincts that the top players have. Things like awareness, peripheral vision in tight contests, the ability to deliver a handball in traffic to release a teammate.

I didn't see him play in the under 18s but I wouldn't be surprised if it was his brute power and strength that regularly resulted in his high possession totals, rather than genuine footy nous.

There's no doubt that recruiters would look at how a player gets his possessions at under 18s level and consider the reasons why that player is getting a lot of the ball or isn't getting a lot of the ball. This would be far more important than simple stats like how many contested possessions or clearances a particular player averaged over the year.

  On 22/07/2014 at 12:49, spirit of norm smith said:

Watched Liam Duggan play ... definitely a top 10 pick. Highly skilled and damaging left footer who can kick 60 meters easily.

  On 22/07/2014 at 13:22, AdamFarr said:

Are you angling at wanting the MFC to take Duggan for our half back line, spirit? Hypothetically, let's say Roos and co rate the top 10 relatively evenly, we may try to trade one of our top picks for a player and a mid first rounder (ala the Tyson/Salem deal). It is entirely feasible that this could happen and we do require damaging foot skills...

I'm starting to think he could slip out of the first round

May be thereabouts for our second round.....

  On 23/07/2014 at 01:31, Scoop Junior said:

Sylvia is not a natural footballer. He has great skills and is a terrific athlete with his high leaping and his strength and power, but he has never really displayed the pure football instincts that the top players have. Things like awareness, peripheral vision in tight contests, the ability to deliver a handball in traffic to release a teammate.

I didn't see him play in the under 18s but I wouldn't be surprised if it was his brute power and strength that regularly resulted in his high possession totals, rather than genuine footy nous.

There's no doubt that recruiters would look at how a player gets his possessions at under 18s level and consider the reasons why that player is getting a lot of the ball or isn't getting a lot of the ball. This would be far more important than simple stats like how many contested possessions or clearances a particular player averaged over the year.

Agree with you, he is not a natural footballer for all the reasons you give.

His skills and attributes in isolation are good, he can mark, he can kick, he can run, he is strong...he just can't put it all together to be a good footballer.

I think there is doubt on what the recruiters look at though, in particular ours of recent past. Maybe if they had looked at things a bit more clearly we wouldn't be where we are now.