I can picket your driveway to stop you leaving your house but I would expect to be run over.

If i was gathered with several thousand others to protest on public land I would expect to do it unmolested by authorities.

The kid who got shot was an example of terrible policing but there are many more example of good cops I am sure so lets put it to bed or I will be down that driveway burning effigies and making placards as quick as a wink.

Well as a reasonable person I'd call the police to remove you before I ran over you, although it would be tempting. And peaceful protests in public spaces usually go off without trouble in Melbourne as far as I've witnessed. In fact the authorities are so kind that they even close off streets in the city for protests and provide police more often that not to make sure that trouble makers who just want to riot stay away and the real message can be delivered. The G8 is one protest that for me is now known as a violent affair rather than a legitimate argument about the dangers of globalization. Same can be said for soccer hooligans. Soccer actually loses fans and support when they cross the line when the idea of them is to be passionate supporters who help the team.

You go on about the 7 times. They went against procedure with a warning shot after 2 rounds of capsicum spray then they used lethal force. There is no recommended number of shots. They shot him once. Lethal force is exactly that. Police don't get to pick and chose between 1 bullet to a non lethal area or 7 lethally. I believe it was actually 10 shots by 4 police of which 5 hit him. In some ways that is reassuring that the police were so concerned for their safety and that of the communities that 4 of them made a decision. You say it was the wrong one and I hope it was as well because that means things can change in the future but unless you were there how do you know? If you were a cop and someone ran at you with a knife and you had already used capsicum spray twice would you get willingly be stabbed or reach for your weapon?

This whole police argument is ridiculous

Some of them are arrogant there is no doubt about that but 95% of them do a great job

On the kid who was shot .. yes they made a snap decision that they will have to live with for the rest of their lives

All that could have been done to change that would have been to have bean bag rounds or something similar to knock him to the ground

You go on about the 7 times. They went against procedure with a warning shot after 2 rounds of capsicum spray then they used lethal force. There is no recommended number of shots. They shot him once. Lethal force is exactly that. Police don't get to pick and chose between 1 bullet to a non lethal area or 7 lethally. I believe it was actually 10 shots by 4 police of which 5 hit him. In some ways that is reassuring that the police were so concerned for their safety and that of the communities that 4 of them made a decision. You say it was the wrong one and I hope it was as well because that means things can change in the future but unless you were there how do you know? If you were a cop and someone ran at you with a knife and you had already used capsicum spray twice would you get willingly be stabbed or reach for your weapon?

I'll have to retire from this debate. I cannot match it with a "master" statistician like yourself.

FMD!!

Well as a reasonable person I'd call the police to remove you before I ran over you, although it would be tempting. And peaceful protests in public spaces usually go off without trouble in Melbourne as far as I've witnessed. In fact the authorities are so kind that they even close off streets in the city for protests and provide police more often that not to make sure that trouble makers who just want to riot stay away and the real message can be delivered. The G8 is one protest that for me is now known as a violent affair rather than a legitimate argument about the dangers of globalization. Same can be said for soccer hooligans. Soccer actually loses fans and support when they cross the line when the idea of them is to be passionate supporters who help the team.

Campbell Brown was arrested by the Queensland police who days earlier had arrested some members of a motorbike club who were purchasing ice-cream with their kids because they were wearing a particular style of clothing.

There was no reason to detain them .

If you need more proof of police excess in QLd please refer to The Fitzgerald inquiry .

Russ Hinze and Joh Bjelke were big on law and order.

You go on about the 7 times. They went against procedure with a warning shot after 2 rounds of capsicum spray then they used lethal force. There is no recommended number of shots. They shot him once. Lethal force is exactly that. Police don't get to pick and chose between 1 bullet to a non lethal area or 7 lethally. I believe it was actually 10 shots by 4 police of which 5 hit him. In some ways that is reassuring that the police were so concerned for their safety and that of the communities that 4 of them made a decision. You say it was the wrong one and I hope it was as well because that means things can change in the future but unless you were there how do you know? If you were a cop and someone ran at you with a knife and you had already used capsicum spray twice would you get willingly be stabbed or reach for your weapon?

Other articles have it as 7 shots, but that stat is of little consequence, like you saying they they shot him once but shot him 5 times.

I'm truly glad you find it reassuring to say 4 police shot him dead. Nice.

I'll have to retire from this debate. I cannot match it with a "master" statistician like yourself.

FMD!!

I'm sorry to discuss the raw numbers like they are meaningless but do you not understand the point of lethal force? It's a very simple concept.

Other articles have it as 7 shots, but that stat is of little consequence, like you saying they they shot him once but shot him 5 times.

I'm truly glad you find it reassuring to say 4 police shot him dead. Nice.

Once again I have to stop debating this but yes I do. It's just like 7 jurors finding someone guilty. If one cop shot him and 3 others said what the hell where you doing then that would've been much more frightening because that would've undoubtedly been a mistake.

This whole police argument is ridiculous

Some of them are arrogant there is no doubt about that but 95% of them do a great job

On the kid who was shot .. yes they made a snap decision that they will have to live with for the rest of their lives

All that could have been done to change that would have been to have bean bag rounds or something similar to knock him to the ground

Bean bag rounds... or

Giving him space and not crowding him

Counselling the boy

Police dogs

Shooting him in the legs (yes, I know that's against training to kill first)

Taser (if that was part of their scope at the time)

do you need more?

Once again I have to stop debating this but yes I do. It's just like 7 jurors finding someone guilty. If one cop shot him and 3 others said what the hell where you doing then that would've been much more frightening because that would've undoubtedly been a mistake.

WTF? I give up cause you make little sense pal.

Bean bag rounds... or

Giving him space and not crowding him

Counselling the boy

Police dogs

Shooting him in the legs (yes, I know that's against training to kill first)

Taser (if that was part of their scope at the time)

do you need more?

Can we have more?

Bean bag rounds... or

Giving him space and not crowding him

Counselling the boy

Police dogs

Shooting him in the legs (yes, I know that's against training to kill first)

Taser (if that was part of their scope at the time)

do you need more?

Pretty much anything except shoot him

He was a 15 year old boy and there were plenty of them to restrain him.

Unless he was built like the hulk then they didn't need to shoot him

Pretty much anything except shoot him

He was a 15 year old boy and there were plenty of them to restrain him.

Unless he was built like the hulk then they didn't need to shoot him

He had a large knife, had already threatened to kill people over the phone to 000 and presumably was posturing to use the knife against the police or the public. How do you restrain an individual on a rampage with a knife without him getting one stab in? Explain that to me. Stab wounds are deadly too remember.

Bean bag rounds... or

Giving him space and not crowding him

Counselling the boy

Police dogs

Shooting him in the legs (yes, I know that's against training to kill first)

Taser (if that was part of their scope at the time)

do you need more?

Bean bags aren't in police standard equipment I don't believe (or even in Australia?) same with rubber bullets. The dog squad were presumably not readily available. I've already said police are trained not to shoot in the legs and there is good reason for that. Tasers were't standard equipment in 2008. Of course they should've tried to talk him down and get him to a reasonable state but remember he wasn't a sane kid he was clearly not in a sane mood and ready for a chat. Once again you are saying they should've done something better but not saying they could've done something better as the circumstances will never be known.

Bean bags aren't in police standard equipment I don't believe (or even in Australia?) same with rubber bullets. The dog squad were presumably not readily available. I've already said police are trained not to shoot in the legs and there is good reason for that. Tasers were't standard equipment in 2008. Of course they should've tried to talk him down and get him to a reasonable state but remember he wasn't a sane kid he was clearly not in a sane mood and ready for a chat. Once again you are saying they should've done something better but not saying they could've done something better as the circumstances will never be known.

As a final gesture of reconciliation 'master', I humbly give in. You're right. Police should immediately surround all skinny 15 yr olds clearly in need of help carrying shoplifted knives and shoot them dead without hesitation. You make perfect sense. Sleep well.

As a final gesture of reconciliation 'master', I humbly give in. You're right. Police should immediately surround all skinny 15 yr olds clearly in need of help carrying shoplifted knives and shoot them dead without hesitation. You make perfect sense. Sleep well.

No police should get more mental health training as I do believe as a society we are getting more out of control mental health patients. We should also equip more police with tasers as I believe we have as the technology is getting safer with them. And police should get even more tactical training and I worry about PSO's getting guns in the first place as well.

Oh and parents should probably study their kids myspace pages and get a little worried when their child starts joining nationalist groups and posting about violence especially in the recent wake of the passing of his father.

But if all goes completely wrong and a knife wielding person is lurching at police and the police can't run away without fearing they'll leave the community at risk then lethal force may be needed. Whether he's skinny, 15 and mentally unstable or fat, 45 and criminal is largely irrelevant to me. Police shoot mentally unwell 15 year old is a bad headline. But mentally unwell 15 year old murders innocent member of public or stabs police officer isn't better.

Q: What do you call someone who studies freeway protests.

A: A Roads Scholar.

As a final gesture of reconciliation 'master', I humbly give in. You're right. Police should immediately surround all skinny 15 yr olds clearly in need of help carrying shoplifted knives and shoot them dead without hesitation. You make perfect sense. Sleep well.

Ever dealt with a psych patient? Plenty younger than 15 have been responsible for deaths when in care, let alone if they're out wandering the streets.

As a final gesture of reconciliation 'master', I humbly give in. You're right. Police should immediately surround all skinny 15 yr olds clearly in need of help carrying shoplifted knives and shoot them dead without hesitation. You make perfect sense. Sleep well.

That's not what he said at all. Only a complete farkwit would think so

Your version of events has a shortage on informed fact. No shortage of generalisation, hyperbole and inaccuracies though.

Try reading the coroner's report before you shoot your mouth off. If that's too much trouble, maybe a newspaper report will give you a few clues

Final suggestion - if you don't want to be shot by the police, don't arm yourself and then threaten them. That approach has a pretty good success rate

Add me to the list of people that think your attitude totally sucks. I've never met a policeman who treated me with anything but total respect.

Isn't it strange how all the people who whinge about the behaviour of our police force all seem to exhibit similar traits to each other? Those who treat police with respect get treated with respect in return. Those who think "cops should be belittled, abused, pushed and punched" clearly don't understand the law or their place in a civilised society, and frankly I don't blame our police for treating people like you however they deem it necessary in order to maintain their authority and safety.

I'm having a vision... it is a little cloudy but I think I see a... white... straight... middle-aged... middle-income... male.

I can't quite decide who is being more ridiculous - the 'should be belittled, abused, pushed and punched' from Biffen or the 'no policeman has ever been disrespectful to me' and 'treating people like you however they deem it necessary' from Autocol.

Actually, it's not so fine a line, the 'punch' tips the balance. Clearly that's just moron talk, and creating a self-fulfilling prophecy of conflict with police.

On the other hand, there really are a whole lot of police who are bluntly racist, wilfully escalate situations by doing the complete opposite of their training, get their jollies detaining people who look 'different' (or have dark skin - no howls please, just a fact, deal with it), set off on cowboy high-speed chases through busy areas directly against the instructions of despatch, and, my personal favourite, repeatedly tasering people who are already prone, handcuffed, and quiet. Plus, let's not forget the significant simmering corruption that keeps rolling into the spotlight, seems like one state at a time.

What was Anthony Mithen doing with this idiot late at night?

Talk about poor choices. Really make you wonder

I'm having a vision... it is a little cloudy but I think I see a... white... straight... middle-aged... middle-income... male.

I can't quite decide who is being more ridiculous - the 'should be belittled, abused, pushed and punched' from Biffen or the 'no policeman has ever been disrespectful to me' and 'treating people like you however they deem it necessary' from Autocol.

Actually, it's not so fine a line, the 'punch' tips the balance. Clearly that's just moron talk, and creating a self-fulfilling prophecy of conflict with police.

On the other hand, there really are a whole lot of police who are bluntly racist, wilfully escalate situations by doing the complete opposite of their training, get their jollies detaining people who look 'different' (or have dark skin - no howls please, just a fact, deal with it), set off on cowboy high-speed chases through busy areas directly against the instructions of despatch, and, my personal favourite, repeatedly tasering people who are already prone, handcuffed, and quiet. Plus, let's not forget the significant simmering corruption that keeps rolling into the spotlight, seems like one state at a time.

Don't misquote my sentence to make your point .

Use the whole sentence or not at all.

This stupid redaction is not what I said .

Nor is it moron talk to stand up for yourself.

So let me see if I have got this right... Campbell Brown went berserk with a knife?

And that's enough for C Brown who now joins the passing parade of former footballers.

We have a general board for discussion on police powers for those inclined to continue the debate but please keep it within the confines of our code of conduct.