Agree to disagree, though my parting comment is to point out that what you have asked for is two Brownlow medalists, once again indicative that what you want is way beyond what could reasonably be expected.

Its fair to ask were we to know theyd be wearing Charlies when we got them ?

I think you might find that Will Minson was AA for a reason this year and Cox is a multiple AA ruck. I know you will bring up Jamar but out of interest can you stats people let me know his average disposals in his AA year, not being a stat-o-phile my guess is more than than the last couple. Marks around the ground are also very important and I know Jamar was taking them in his AA year.

I hold the Grant Thomas line that a ruck man is useless....unless he does more than tap the ball.

We all know and acknowledge the importance of stoppages. One of the main players in a stoppage is a ruckman.

And Jamar averaged the same amount of kicks in 2010 to 2013, 4 more handballs in 2010, nearly 1 mark more in 2010, half a goal more in 2010, 1.3 tackles less in 2010, and 4 HOs less in 2010.

He didn't do much more around the ground at all. An extra goal every two games and 4 handballs a game from his one extra mark.

He got AA for his work with Moloney that was so publicised, and because of the dearth of good ruckmen.

I have had a look at the past few years and the MFC is rarely out of the top 8 when it comes to HOs, but we are always the outlier when looking at clearances.

The AFL average (minus the MFC) in clearances has been 37.6, 37.9, 38.1, and 35.1 in the past 4 years.

The clearance average of the two teams above and two teams below us (in the HOs) is 39, 39.8, 38.8, and 36.2 in those years.

The clearance average of the MFC has been 32.5, 33.9, 36.6, and 34.2 in those years.

So the teams around us in hitouts have won 6.5, 5.9, 2.2, and 2 more clearances a game than us in those years.

We should be doing better with the HOs we have been getting but we have not had the midfield to maximise the advantage the way that other clubs have.

St.Kilda supporters are trying to swallow the McEvoy trade with the sauce-stat saying that he was 15th for tap-outs (or TOtoadv??) this year. Stats can tell us what we want; but my eyes tell me that the kid is about to enter his prime, with a huge tank, and a good clunk ability. He will be top-3 ruckman with Nic Nat in 14/15 I'd dare expect.

If you want a stat for Jamar, get me the ice-rink stat of laying prostrate (is that how to say and spell it Ben-Hur?) after a centre-bounce. Brynne Edelsten is of more value in the centre-square after a ruck-contest.

Never seen so much discussion about the Russian Before!!!

I wonder if the new rules of the last year have killed him off???

But in saying that, if the midfield can function in a usefull manner the Ruckmen will become a force again.

Never seen so much discussion about the Russian Before!!!

I wonder if the new rules of the last year have killed him off???

But in saying that, if the midfield can function in a usefull manner the Ruckmen will become a force again.

Gee wiz, we want the club to change its culture; but what about us supporters? Didn't we blame the rules for the rapid demise of Jeff White? Now, it is groundhog day for Jamar. Both lucky to win an AA, ala Kellaway and Gaspar. Both flawed rucks. Both should have been traded with value.

We have Roos, so the woulda, coulda, shoulda game will end, and these boards will have less to debate; and more to experience.

Gee wiz, we want the club to change its culture; but what about us supporters? Didn't we blame the rules for the rapid demise of Jeff White? Now, it is groundhog day for Jamar. Both lucky to win an AA, ala Kellaway and Gaspar. Both flawed rucks. Both should have been traded with value.

We have Roos, so the woulda, coulda, shoulda game will end, and these boards will have less to debate; and more to experience.

The Line through the centre did end Jeff White's career prematurely whether it bothers you or not..

I would have been happy to trade the Russian, but it's not as if the door has been belted down with other clubs wanting his service.

He is on our list so i am hoping he can contribute.

If he cannot i will be disappointed but not suprised.

Footywire...

Although there seems to be a few stats there that are askew...

But even going by your stats it STILL backs up my point that hitouts FLAT OUT aren't as important as they used to be.

How many clearances does Jamar win? Or are you saying that because our midfielders will be better then Jamar gets let off for not adding anything to the game outside the centre circle?

A few are askew??? How about our goal average of 17.9!!!!! Number 2 in the league. WTF are those stats from ?????

Did we kick 17 in any game????? Hey maybe we won the flag and I dreamed it was a shiiite year!

As the highest kickin', highest handballin' side a goal av of 17.9 should come as no surprise.

Here's the Footywire interpretation:

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/fts_team_rankings?type=TA&year=2013&sby=7

Further from Footywire...this may give a better overall look.

Your stats seem to be a little askew Stuie...

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/th-melbourne-demons

The Line through the centre did end Jeff White's career prematurely whether it bothers you or not..

I would have been happy to trade the Russian, but it's not as if the door has been belted down with other clubs wanting his service.

He is on our list so i am hoping he can contribute.

If he cannot i will be disappointed but not suprised.

Gee, there must have been an imaginary white line in every final the guy played. He even made Steven King look like a champion.

Players should be judged when it counted most. That's the way I've always judged them.....except Isaac Weetra's first game against the hawks.

Reckon looking at the stats in isolation is even more painful, those differentials are damning. The reality is clear.

Gee, there must have been an imaginary white line in every final the guy played. He even made Steven King look like a champion.

Players should be judged when it counted most. That's the way I've always judged them.....except Isaac Weetra's first game against the hawks.

Sure, i see your point.

Does that mean all our players over he last 50 years have been useless though?

It depends how you measure a career....I thought Jeff White was one of the better Ruckmen of his time.

St.Kilda supporters are trying to swallow the McEvoy trade with the sauce-stat saying that he was 15th for tap-outs (or TOtoadv??) this year. Stats can tell us what we want; but my eyes tell me that the kid is about to enter his prime, with a huge tank, and a good clunk ability. He will be top-3 ruckman with Nic Nat in 14/15 I'd dare expect.

If you want a stat for Jamar, get me the ice-rink stat of laying prostrate (is that how to say and spell it Ben-Hur?) after a centre-bounce. Brynne Edelsten is of more value in the centre-square after a ruck-contest.

Least she would get her picture in the papers.

Footywire...

Although there seems to be a few stats there that are askew...

But even going by your stats it STILL backs up my point that hitouts FLAT OUT aren't as important as they used to be.

How many clearances does Jamar win? Or are you saying that because our midfielders will be better then Jamar gets let off for not adding anything to the game outside the centre circle?

FMD! Those are quite clearly stats AGAINST! See Goals column for the GWS and Freo rows.

Only you Stuie, only you.

This is fantastic discussion. Congrats guys. Genuine debate and discussion in good spirits!

Can I throw a spanner in the works with the stats? You can't measure some thing, and some of them are the things I don't think Jamar does well. Shepparding and bullocking and blocking at stoppages is important; Sandilands is the master of this. Jamar sort of taps then stands there.

We all know and acknowledge the importance of stoppages. One of the main players in a stoppage is a ruckman.

And Jamar averaged the same amount of kicks in 2010 to 2013, 4 more handballs in 2010, nearly 1 mark more in 2010, half a goal more in 2010, 1.3 tackles less in 2010, and 4 HOs less in 2010.

He didn't do much more around the ground at all. An extra goal every two games and 4 handballs a game from his one extra mark.

He got AA for his work with Moloney that was so publicised, and because of the dearth of good ruckmen.

I have had a look at the past few years and the MFC is rarely out of the top 8 when it comes to HOs, but we are always the outlier when looking at clearances.

The AFL average (minus the MFC) in clearances has been 37.6, 37.9, 38.1, and 35.1 in the past 4 years.

The clearance average of the two teams above and two teams below us (in the HOs) is 39, 39.8, 38.8, and 36.2 in those years.

The clearance average of the MFC has been 32.5, 33.9, 36.6, and 34.2 in those years.

So the teams around us in hitouts have won 6.5, 5.9, 2.2, and 2 more clearances a game than us in those years.

We should be doing better with the HOs we have been getting but we have not had the midfield to maximise the advantage the way that other clubs have.

Thanks for the stats on this 'rpfc'. interesting reading. I suspect that Jamar was doing more of what 'deanox' is talking about back in 2010 but has dropped the ball a bit, probably not in line with the Neeld game plan like many. He really needs to give us a lot more this year.

My preference is still for Clark to play in the ruck (this is obviously not the Roos plan at the moment) probably with Fitz as the back up. I think Clark gives us that Moore, Stynes type utility ruck/midfielder.

My preference is still for Clark to play in the ruck (this is obviously not the Roos plan at the moment) probably with Fitz as the back up. I think Clark gives us that Moore, Stynes type utility ruck/midfielder.

Respect your opinion mate but I simply can't see the sense in this. Clark is our best forward, by some margin. There's no way you'd take him out of the forward line altogether.

Respect your opinion mate but I simply can't see the sense in this. Clark is our best forward, by some margin. There's no way you'd take him out of the forward line altogether.

Would love to clone him. A bit will depend on how quickly Hogan comes up and whether Dawes does, that will open our options up.

In the best case I would play him ruck and have him resting for periods forward a bit like what Ottens did for the Cats. For now I think he will play forward as I agree he is our best forward.

You can't measure some thing, and some of them are the things I don't think Jamar does well. Shepparding and bullocking and blocking at stoppages is important; Sandilands is the master of this. Jamar sort of taps then stands there.

I was going to raise this point too. It is also important to reduce the effectiveness of the opponent. If anyone saw the final between Geelong and Freo, they woulda have seen Sandilands give the Freo mids an armchair ride. Geelong couldn't combat him.