Jack Watts

[rjay 24,615]

I'd like to think I've seen enough footy, played enough footy, and run enough coaching sessions to be able to read what's going through the mind of players. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I'm an expert, but I'm confident in my observations.

Where in Queensland do you live?

sorry, re read your initial post on this. It seems neither of us was at that training session.

[jabberwocky 2,301]

Go to manage ignore preferences on your profile.

[stuie 7,374]

Jeebus. How do I put the pest on ignore?

Thanks in advance.

Well I guess the abusive private message you just sent me was before you put me on ignore...

[jabberwocky 2,301]

Emperor Roos decrees:

From this day forth young Watts you will be known as a midfielder. When you come people will say "Here comes the engine rooom of the Melbourne football team" You will develop arms as thick as a bullocks neck and a lust for the ball rivalled only by Phil Scully's lust for monte carlos. Opponents will fear you, men will want to be you and women will want you.

Now for you Old Man Russian. You will have the poise and grace of a gazelle, you will be able to play on a field of potato chips and not a single one will break.

etc etc

[CARN THE DEES! 14]

There are some clear reasons why Roos wants to put Watts in the middle.

He has great skills by hand and foot and a very good footy brain - , something which we've lacked in our midfield - often see him do some very clever taps or passes to teammates that allow them to clear congestion and break lines (basketball influence is evident here). Plus you can combine this with speed, particularly the first 20m which he tested at below 3 seconds in the draft combine and his height & strength could make him into a very damaging midfielder that would rest up forward and still be damaging in front of goals.

He should have about 5-6kgs at least on most midfielders, so by further adding to his core strength and learning how to use his body correctly he could become very damaging in congested situations. In theory He'll be able to break tackles, use a burst of speed to get clear of everyone else and then provide a pinpoint pass to a leading target up forward.

Although his training regime will need adjustment, primarily his fitness base so that he can maintain high speeds for entire quarters and games. Often I noticed he was unable to chase down players and I believe in part this because he lacks the endurance to maintain his speed across the game (similar to Trengove), although it may partly be due to confidence/attitude in believing he can make those tackles. This is impossible to measure though and needs to be addressed outside of the gym and field.

Obviously there are concerns regarding his attitude and desire for the contest, I'm not really worried about it personally. Firstly, Watts has shown improvements in this area and this has improved simultaneously with the confidence in his game and belief that he is an AFL player, albeit I don't think either have improved greatly from when he was drafted for various reasons. He has played his best games though when he has been able to get his hands on the ball and in my opinion its during these games he also shows the most desire for the ball. Playing in the midfield, against smaller bodies, he should be getting the ball a lot more and over the year I believe that there will be significant improvement in his hunt, desire and aggression to the ball and player. Although this is assuming he settles into the midfield well and finds some form, builds his confidence and belief.

On a side note, I know that this happened in my footy. Like Watts, I'm a tall player that played up forward and was often criticised for not using my size enough but this year I was moved into the first ruck position (normally just a relief ruckman due to my inability to jump very high). I found that even though I was pretty average in the ruck that just playing in the midfield allowed me to get my hands on the ball and it eventually clicked that I was too big for midfielders to tackle effectively, so I could normally get a pass out. I also started just becoming much more aggressive in my game, being able to use my bigger body meant that I was for the first time confident to really attack the game. It also probably helped that I was also the fittest and strongest I've been in my life. At the end of the year I won my first B&F, something that was very unexpected considering that I've never won an award for footy besides participation awards (also lucky with a few well timed injuries and overseas holidays). I only mention this because I'm a similar height and the same age as Watts so I guess we'd be at similar stages of development and maturity (but there might be a bit of a difference to playing AFL footy and playing in the low divisions of Sydney AFL comp).

[The Chazz 4,077]

sorry, re read your initial post on this. It seems neither of us was at that training session.

What are you talking about? Not sure why you're being a clever date, rjay, but go your hardest if it makes you feel better.

I attended a training session, where a message was passed on by the (recognised) facilitator of which they received directly from a source (which I claimed may have been the Storm tackle coach, but the more I think about it, it may have been the Wallabies tackle coach), which helped explain a certain thing they (the facilitator) were trying to teach the group (which included me). But, the know-all that knows f-all, rjay, is trying to tell this forum that I didn't attend this training session, and even though he didn't attend, he knows what the message was and how it was intended to be understood by the group, which did actually include me, and interestingly, the entire group had the same understanding as what I have got.

Rjay, I couldn't give a rats if you or anyone else doesn't agree with my opinion, I have contributed to the topic (which was in reply to RPFC believing Watts' physicality can be developed). How about you try and do the same. If you want further clarification, please feel free to PM me, so that you don't take the thread down a similar path to where Stuie steered it.

[jabberwocky 2,301]

I generally hate this phrase but I can't think of another that is more apt- whatever

Mate I have been engaging in decent debate over this player since I saw him play his first games at Casey. The player has shown above average skill level, and is below average in nearly every other meaningful requirement.

He was peeling off contests at Casey in his first few games and leaving teammates battling 1:2 and 1:3, in late 2013 he was still doing it.

He has had four coaches and I would suggest countless people attempting to get in his head and change his game. He deserves at this point to be known as an average player in a poor side. I would love Roos to come in and wave a magic wand and turn Jack Watts into a better than average footballer, history suggests that it is unlikely.

People still spout off his so called upside virtually rewriting his pre-draft profile and quoting his draft camp stats verbatim. I go off what I see, and I see an ordinary and unaccountable footballer that plays with little vigour.

I respect Roos efforts to try to squeeze as much as he can out of him, and would dearly love him to become a very good and accountable team focussed footballer.

We need to move away from thinking that this bloke is going to be anything but a bit player in our future. He is just not that good.

[rjay 24,615]

What are you talking about? Not sure why you're being a clever date, rjay, but go your hardest if it makes you feel better.

I attended a training session, where a message was passed on by the (recognised) facilitator of which they received directly from a source (which I claimed may have been the Storm tackle coach, but the more I think about it, it may have been the Wallabies tackle coach), which helped explain a certain thing they (the facilitator) were trying to teach the group (which included me). But, the know-all that knows f-all, rjay, is trying to tell this forum that I didn't attend this training session, and even though he didn't attend, he knows what the message was and how it was intended to be understood by the group, which did actually include me, and interestingly, the entire group had the same understanding as what I have got.

Rjay, I couldn't give a rats if you or anyone else doesn't agree with my opinion, I have contributed to the topic (which was in reply to RPFC believing Watts' physicality can be developed). How about you try and do the same. If you want further clarification, please feel free to PM me, so that you don't take the thread down a similar path to where Stuie steered it.

You heard it from someone and then made an interpretation of what was said, ever heard of Chinese whispers. Ok, you were there, good for you, you didn't say you were in your post you said you heard from someone. It really doesn't matter.

I think Watts problem with tackling is a mix of technique and commitment to tackle. Work rate is part of commitment, you have to work to get to the contest or the player with the ball unless he runs into your arms. I don't relate tackling to physical development or aggression although both can in some cases be a positive and in others a negative.

[binman 42,010]

Mate I have been engaging in decent debate over this player since I saw him play his first games at Casey. The player has shown above average skill level, and is below average in nearly every other meaningful requirement.

He was peeling off contests at Casey in his first few games and leaving teammates battling 1:2 and 1:3, in late 2013 he was still doing it.

He has had four coaches and I would suggest countless people attempting to get in his head and change his game. He deserves at this point to be known as an average player in a poor side. I would love Roos to come in and wave a magic wand and turn Jack Watts into a better than average footballer, history suggests that it is unlikely.

People still spout off his so called upside virtually rewriting his pre-draft profile and quoting his draft camp stats verbatim. I go off what I see, and I see an ordinary and unaccountable footballer that plays with little vigour.

I respect Roos efforts to try to squeeze as much as he can out of him, and would dearly love him to become a very good and accountable team focussed footballer.

We need to move away from thinking that this bloke is going to be anything but a bit player in our future. He is just not that good.

Fair enough. A well considered post.I disagree he will only be a 'bit player in the future' as i think he will become perhaps our most important player under Roos. I accept however that your case is stronger and that you are more likely to be right than i am.

[The Chazz 4,077]

You heard it from someone and then made an interpretation of what was said, ever heard of Chinese whispers. Ok, you were there, good for you, you didn't say you were in your post you said you heard from someone. It really doesn't matter.

I think Watts problem with tackling is a mix of technique and commitment to tackle. Work rate is part of commitment, you have to work to get to the contest or the player with the ball unless he runs into your arms. I don't relate tackling to physical development or aggression although both can in some cases be a positive and in others a negative.

So you're saying that after you get your technique right, then you have to have the commitment to the tackle?

So, the line I quoted, about teaching people technique but not being able to teach them the "want", is different how?

I still disagree about work rate. Watts makes many contests, his technique is fine when they stick, it's just that they are "nice" tackles in that they stop a player. Compare Hawthorn's tackling - they have this obsession to impact every contest, with the hope that they create a loose ball then back their inside mids to clear it. That's the mindset that coaches can't teach. You need to tackle hard (*different to aggressive) in the AFL otherwise players get their hands free and clear the ball, or if you're lucky, they create a stoppage. If you tackle hard, you have greater chance of creating a loose ball, a 50/50 ball, or a stoppage.

Don't worry, Watts isn't on his own in regards to tackling ability. Can't remember which game it was earlier this year that Neeld said after the game about how many tackles we attempted and compared it to how many stuck. That's commitment, desire, hunger...not work rate. It's been years since we've had a team that had more hard tacklers than nice ones.

[drdrake 3,124]

There was a bloke that was drafted to Sydney, tall bloke could jump a bit to short for a ruck man agile good skills and could run. His first few years at Sydney he was a little soft and struggled to really find a role, wasn't strong enough for key forward but was a player. Then a few years later he became a midfielder forward won a brownlow and is now considered a great of the game. Is Paul Roos trying to turn Jack Watts into a Adam Goodes style of player. Not saying Watts will get to the level of Goodes but I can see a similar path.

[rhaz 342]

Watts has 5cm or more on the premier tall mids in the game but weighs the same or less. He needs put on weight and strength if he wants to be like the other taller midfielders.

I saw Josh Kennedy on the street the other day and the bloke is huge.

[rjay 24,615]

So you're saying that after you get your technique right, then you have to have the commitment to the tackle?

So, the line I quoted, about teaching people technique but not being able to teach them the "want", is different how?

I still disagree about work rate. Watts makes many contests, his technique is fine when they stick, it's just that they are "nice" tackles in that they stop a player. Compare Hawthorn's tackling - they have this obsession to impact every contest, with the hope that they create a loose ball then back their inside mids to clear it. That's the mindset that coaches can't teach. You need to tackle hard (*different to aggressive) in the AFL otherwise players get their hands free and clear the ball, or if you're lucky, they create a stoppage. If you tackle hard, you have greater chance of creating a loose ball, a 50/50 ball, or a stoppage.

Don't worry, Watts isn't on his own in regards to tackling ability. Can't remember which game it was earlier this year that Neeld said after the game about how many tackles we attempted and compared it to how many stuck. That's commitment, desire, hunger...not work rate. It's been years since we've had a team that had more hard tacklers than nice ones.

I agree with you on most of it 'billy' and we've been talking in circles a bit. Hard is good, nice is not good, aggressive can be stupid but I still think work rate is a big part of it. Without the work rate you just don't get there unless you get run into, it's always someone else's problem.

I think the mindset can change but not easily, it's a habit. Watched the boys do some tackling with the rugby guy last preseason and he had them tackling low to take the opponent out of the contest and free the ball (as you rightly say). As soon as the games started these same players where hanging there arms out, tackling high and giving away frees.

Totally agree with you on our tackling and I hope it changes because it is one of those things that is not hard to do.

[Demonjnr 0]

Watts belongs in the forward line. He started there and he is good there, but some more training is needed

[Demonjnr 0]

Emperor Roos decrees:

From this day forth young Watts you will be known as a midfielder. When you come people will say "Here comes the engine rooom of the Melbourne football team" You will develop arms as thick as a bullocks neck and a lust for the ball rivalled only by Phil Scully's lust for monte carlos. Opponents will fear you, men will want to be you and women will want you.

Now for you Old Man Russian. You will have the poise and grace of a gazelle, you will be able to play on a field of potato chips and not a single one will break.

etc etc

Although he is moving he shouldnt, he is a good forward and we need experienced midfielders

[jnrmac 19,905]

Its pretty simple. Watts needs to develop an appetite for a contest. That doesnt mean crashing packs but he does need to show desire to get the pill. When he has the ball he is usually first class with his disposal.

[Demonjnr 0]

Can't wait to see him at a stoppage bent over gasping for air after winning the prvious 2, then going again at that stoppage to clear it with his big frame... can't wait!

Would be good but he could do that in the forward line to which would result in more goals!

[S.R.J 418]

I'm more than happy for Roos to use watts in the midfield. With Roos and Stone who knows what could happen. Having Watts playing as an outside mid getting the ball and hitting one of our forwards on the chest would be awesome. He has a bloody good kick...time will tell. Might just take 2 years to develop him in that position. What do we have to lose, we have tried him everywhere else. Bring on 2014

[Dee Fan 3,247]

Imagine if Watts had been pick 2 like Fumbleton and not pick 1, there would have been hardly a ripple if we traded him for pick 55.

Edited November 10, 2013 by RobbieF

[Left Field 313]

Mate I have been engaging in decent debate over this player since I saw him play his first games at Casey. The player has shown above average skill level, and is below average in nearly every other meaningful requirement.

He was peeling off contests at Casey in his first few games and leaving teammates battling 1:2 and 1:3, in late 2013 he was still doing it.

He has had four coaches and I would suggest countless people attempting to get in his head and change his game. He deserves at this point to be known as an average player in a poor side. I would love Roos to come in and wave a magic wand and turn Jack Watts into a better than average footballer, history suggests that it is unlikely.

People still spout off his so called upside virtually rewriting his pre-draft profile and quoting his draft camp stats verbatim. I go off what I see, and I see an ordinary and unaccountable footballer that plays with little vigour.

I respect Roos efforts to try to squeeze as much as he can out of him, and would dearly love him to become a very good and accountable team focussed footballer.

We need to move away from thinking that this bloke is going to be anything but a bit player in our future. He is just not that good.

Your post is well considered and well constructed but I am going to take you up one point. Specifically "He was peeling off contests at Casey in his first few games and leaving teammates battling 1:2 and 1:3, in late 2013 he was still doing it."

Being a team game, footy challenges players to pick which contests they will go into versus providing a spread option to players already in that contest. What we have seen for a few years now is that our players have been unwilling or unable to spread - they either stick beside their player so they don't get burnt or add to an existing throng and create a stoppage.

One of the biggest challenges for us has been to create options when we have won the ball - as evidenced by players holding on to it a bit longer, waiting for a target only to have to thump the ball long and wide to space or another contest as a last resort.

In a sense it takes a great deal of confidence in your team mate at the ball to create a release option for them The best sides do it all the time and they both win those 1:2 and 1:3 contests and have plenty of options to burn the opposition that over-committed to that original contest.

Its not lazy, its a judgement call. And it takes more courage than many here can understand.

Edit to remove unexpected censoring...

Edited November 10, 2013 by Left Field

[brey9186 102]

Cheeky $10 on watts for the brownlow every year he plays middle is a must now..

But the scary part is what he will do when he is rotated off the ball. Say he swaps with Vince, who was on HFF pushing slightly deeper on a 185cm defender. Watts goes down forward for 5 mins to rest, either it disrupts the oppositions entire structures, or we create a mismatch!

If roosy gets this right, watts becomes top 5 players in the league in 2 years!!

[rpfc 28,052]

Your post is well considered and well constructed but I am going to take you up one point. Specifically "He was peeling off contests at Casey in his first few games and leaving teammates battling 1:2 and 1:3, in late 2013 he was still doing it."

Being a team game, footy challenges players to pick which contests they will go into versus providing a spread option to players already in that contest. What we have seen for a few years now is that our players have been unwilling or unable to spread - they either stick beside their player so they don't get burnt or add to an existing throng and create a stoppage.

One of the biggest challenges for us has been to create options when we have won the ball - as evidenced by players holding on to it a bit longer, waiting for a target only to have to thump the ball long and wide to space or another contest as a last resort.

In a sense it takes a great deal of confidence in your team mate at the ball to create a release option for them The best sides do it all the time and they both win those 1:2 and 1:3 contests and have plenty of options to burn the opposition that over-committed to that original contest.

Its not lazy, its a judgement call. And it takes more courage than many here can understand.

Edit to remove unexpected censoring...

I have not found many posters that understand this - excellent point.

I talk about trust on the field and this is what I mean; Nathan Jones doesn't need someone on the ground next to him as fights for the footy. He needs a person to hand it to outside of the contest so that he can make the most of the split second he wins the ball. I see far too many players right next to blokes who have won the footy. I see this at all levels of footy.

How can you possibly help? There may be a sheppard if there is one other player and your teammate is on his feet and moving, but the way you can help is to trust him to win the footy and give him options, and if all areas are already covered by teammates then you can slink back and look to work defensively.

The game is driven by outside runners and hard work offensively.

There is too much preoccupation with defence and defensively minded players.

Who dares wins.

Edited November 10, 2013 by rpfc

[rpfc 28,052]

Cheeky $10 on watts for the brownlow every year he plays middle is a must now..

But the scary part is what he will do when he is rotated off the ball. Say he swaps with Vince, who was on HFF pushing slightly deeper on a 185cm defender. Watts goes down forward for 5 mins to rest, either it disrupts the oppositions entire structures, or we create a mismatch!

If roosy gets this right, watts becomes top 5 players in the league in 2 years!!

Baby steps.

[monoccular 17,328]

Well this could well be the ultimate, or maybe the most important anyway, test of Roos' coaching and psychological prowess, as well as Jack's own abilities and determination to succeed.

I look forward to seeing how it all unfolds.

[hardtack 10,422]

I only mention this because I'm a similar height and the same age as Watts so I guess we'd be at similar stages of development and maturity (but there might be a bit of a difference to playing AFL footy and playing in the low divisions of Sydney AFL comp).

Off topic, but just out of interest, who are you playing with in the Sydney comp?