What value is 'free agency'?

[Demoneyes 562]

DJ - Sydney got him because of their allowance. Otherwise, he would be at GWS where he is sorely needed. I wouldn't put it past The Bloated One to stop it even this late and send him there.

FA is without bias, the clubs that have room and a good pitch can get good players. We haven't had a good pitch, but that tone will change with Roos will it not?

Moloney was not wanted by the MFC and while we can all hide behind Neeld ruining him, I don't think his departure hurt at all. His lack of leadership, finger pointing, front running, and inability to get to contests wore thin with me as I wrote in his last couple of years.

Rivers was playing forward for us in his last year for all those revisionists - we had moved past him.

The Sylvia situation was played well by the club. Roos wants to imprint a culture on this place and Colin would be more of a hindrance than a help. Of all his transgressions I know that not all were actually reported.

And the club, and FA, should deliver us Pick 22 for Colin so don't just dismiss that chance to suit your argument.

Should Frawley leave next year he will net is a top 5 pick or a very good trade.

FA rewards smart clubs, oddly enough I think that Port has been the smartest; they got two second round picks for Chaplin and Pearce, traded for FA Monfries, and have already been on the attack with the signing of Matt White.

We are worried because we have been a terribly run club, but how about we try and be a well run club instead of worrying about a system that will not leave.

Fully agree with most of that rpfc but don't understand how we could come out with pick 22 for Colin if Hawthorn are only getting pick 19 or 20 for Franklin? I think Colin would be more likely around pick 38 (start 3rd round) or worse

[Sir Why You Little 37,134]

We have to identify good talent that few others rate.

Tough Call i know...But it's what Roos has done already.

Ted Richards comes to mind as an example...We have to build a culture over the next 24 months

I have faith in PJ Roos and his assistants...i have no idea who to recruit, i/we can only observe..We Have to trust Roosy on this.

Free Agency will be good for us..But right now we are on the recieving end.

That said Col is gone & i will sleep ok tonight...he was not the answer.

[rpfc 28,779]

Deyes - I don't pull them out of my arse, the Bands are set an 1, 3, and 5 follow the pick in the first, second, and third rounds of the team that loses the player (Bands 2 an 4 are end of 1st rd and end of 2nd round respectively).

We should get Band 3 and Hawthorn Band 1 and our pick will only be a handful of picks behind that Hawthorn pick because that is how the system is designed.

Oh, and Hawthorn should threaten to meet the contract and trade him but I understand the desire to not play chicken with Sydney.

[whatwhat say what 22,948]

what has changed with free agency is that clubs used to have to give something to get something. now they just can take, and the team that is taken from gets a compensation pick, which in our case, does not equate to much at all.

i didn't want it in, and i fear what the future holds for clubs such as ours follows its introduction.

[Pirlo 813]

The successful clubs gut the weaker ones for 'role players'.

[Norm Smith's Curse 2,602]

I think lower clubs will just start trading older players with currency before they walk as free agents.

[rpfc 28,779]

what has changed with free agency is that clubs used to have to give something to get something. now they just can take, and the team that is taken from gets a compensation pick, which in our case, does not equate to much at all.

i didn't want it in, and i fear what the future holds for clubs such as ours follows its introduction.

We will get Pick 21 for Colin. How is that not much?

And we have a very soft FA right now, you and others should wrap your arms around this model, as other critics of this FA we have want to get rid of the compensation aspect entirely.

Other draft, salary cap, and FA regulated leagues don't have any compensation, or if they do, it's minor to the point of irrelevance.

Embrace it.

[ThreeOneSix 954]

We will get Pick 21 for Colin. How is that not much?

And we have a very soft FA right now, you and others should wrap your arms around this model, as other critics of this FA we have want to get rid of the compensation aspect entirely.

Other draft, salary cap, and FA regulated leagues don't have any compensation, or if they do, it's minor to the point of irrelevance.

Embrace it.

Those regulated leagues probably don't have a limit on the salary cap either, which changes the dynamic entirely.

Also, in other leagues the compensation would come from the club gaining the free agent.

We have a long way to go with the free agency model, the AFL could do worse than the structure it around the NHL model, there are similarities within both.

[rpfc 28,779]

Those regulated leagues probably don't have a limit on the salary cap either, which changes the dynamic entirely.

Also, in other leagues the compensation would come from the club gaining the free agent.

We have a long way to go with the free agency model, the AFL could do worse than the structure it around the NHL model, there are similarities within both.

NFL has a hard cap. The AFL have tried to emulate what the most even football league in the world does.

For example - 32 FA picks where handed to 16 teams last time around. Highest was a third rounder.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/story/0ap1000000151670/article/nfl-awards-32-compensatory-draft-picks-to-16-teams

The highest they give is a third round pick. And they give as many picks as net loss of players just like ours, and it is based on salary (and playing time and honours in finals).

We have a very suitable, soft FA that people should try to maintain. Otherwise they might find it lose the compensation aspect and become even more unpalatable.

Edited October 4, 2013 by rpfc

[Demoneyes 562]

Deyes - I don't pull them out of my arse, the Bands are set an 1, 3, and 5 follow the pick in the first, second, and third rounds of the team that loses the player (Bands 2 an 4 are end of 1st rd and end of 2nd round respectively).

We should get Band 3 and Hawthorn Band 1 and our pick will only be a handful of picks behind that Hawthorn pick because that is how the system is designed.

Oh, and Hawthorn should threaten to meet the contract and trade him but I understand the desire to not play chicken with Sydney.

Sorry rp but wasn't having a go at you, just didn't understand the system. And if the tables were turned we would be outraged! Lucky as all blazes to get a pick like 22 if that's the case. So as long as we pick up no RFA or UFA we are sweet?

[whatwhat say what 22,948]

the reason why i regard the compensation as 'not much at all' is more cumulative (i.e. sylvia, moloney, rivers for pick 21, 48, and byrnes) than a singular instance like col.

but if you take him as a single instance example, we are losing our arguably second best midfielder, third most experienced player, who in 2013 averaged 20 possessions and 4.5 tackles a game for a speculative pick.

my biggest complaint is that freo don't have to lose anything to get him; under the previous system if they wanted him they would have had to trade him. their pick would be around that 21 mark due to their finishing position, say pick 18 or so, previously to get to freo they. would have had to negotiated a trade - so it may have been pick 18 and viv michie for sylvia and, say, our third round selection.

the way it works now is that clubs that want to 'top up' can do so with impunity.

[Whispering_Jack 30,674]

Deyes - I don't pull them out of my arse, the Bands are set an 1, 3, and 5 follow the pick in the first, second, and third rounds of the team that loses the player (Bands 2 an 4 are end of 1st rd and end of 2nd round respectively).

We should get Band 3 and Hawthorn Band 1 and our pick will only be a handful of picks behind that Hawthorn pick because that is how the system is designed.

Oh, and Hawthorn should threaten to meet the contract and trade him but I understand the desire to not play chicken with Sydney.

You seem to have a good grasp of how the bands work and I understand the criteria and the AFL's thinking behind the way it works these things out. However, I remember last year, a few of the clubs (including MFC) were still dismayed at the outcome.

Are you able to demonstrate how we ended up getting pick 48 after losing two players of the calibre of Moloney and Rivers (the gain of Byrnes I understand was inconsequential) and how Port Adelaide finished with 29 & 30 for Chaplin and Pearce?

My understanding is that it was due to the age of the two players and the fact that they were offered contracts that weren't all that flash which vindicates my view that neither were particularly worth retaining. On Moloney in particular, I won't buy the revisionist guff about Neeld spoiling him. It was widely known that Beamer wanted out to Essendon after Bailey was sacked and his attitude and demeanour as well as his manager's conduct in 2012 indicated he was uninterested. That probably cost him a better contract in the end and he would have been shown the door anyway IMO which is what I call karma. I just regret we didn't send him off to the Bombers when he wanted to go. He would have made a good fit for the clowns over there and we would have received better compensation than what we eventually got.

[Sir Why You Little 37,134]

Franklin will be a 19 Compensation at best.

People on here expecting 21-21 for Sylvia are dreaming.

[daisycutter 29,743]

regarding last year

i don't understand the logic of "netting" out FAs as was the case with Byrnes

this cost us a lot

if a side gets a FA but doesn't lose a FA (like Freo currently) there is no penalty

yet last year we got a penalty for getting a FA (Byrnes)

that to me is illogical. Some get penalised for getting a FA and some get no penalty for getting a FA

solution. don't count getting a FA in all cases.

compensation given on a per player lost FA

so last year we should have got 2 compensation picks based on circumstances of each player

just my 2c

[FarNorthernD 5,861]

regarding last year

i don't understand the logic of "netting" out FAs as was the case with Byrnes

this cost us a lot

if a side gets a FA but doesn't lose a FA (like Freo currently) there is no penalty

yet last year we got a penalty for getting a FA (Byrnes)

that to me is illogical. Some get penalised for getting a FA and some get no penalty for getting a FA

solution. don't count getting a FA in all cases.

compensation given on a per player lost FA

so last year we should have got 2 compensation picks based on circumstances of each player

just my 2c

Thankyou for that explanation, I think I finally have my head around it.

The FA reward system will encourage clubs that lose a player not to select another FA in return. I assume Hawthorn won't be getting a FA on their lists this trading period

Or if you are Freo getting Sylvia make sure none of your other players want out or then you will both pay for Sylvia and lose a player.

[Demoneyes 562]

You seem to have a good grasp of how the bands work and I understand the criteria and the AFL's thinking behind the way it works these things out. However, I remember last year, a few of the clubs (including MFC) were still dismayed at the outcome.

Are you able to demonstrate how we ended up getting pick 48 after losing two players of the calibre of Moloney and Rivers (the gain of Byrnes I understand was inconsequential) and how Port Adelaide finished with 29 & 30 for Chaplin and Pearce?

My understanding is that it was due to the age of the two players and the fact that they were offered contracts that weren't all that flash which vindicates my view that neither were particularly worth retaining. On Moloney in particular, I won't buy the revisionist guff about Neeld spoiling him. It was widely known that Beamer wanted out to Essendon after Bailey was sacked and his attitude and demeanour as well as his manager's conduct in 2012 indicated he was uninterested. That probably cost him a better contract in the end and he would have been shown the door anyway IMO which is what I call karma. I just regret we didn't send him off to the Bombers when he wanted to go. He would have made a good fit for the clowns over there and we would have received better compensation than what we eventually got.

I don't know WJ, if we got early 2nd round that would be fantastic and doubt we would have got much better last year. However, I seriously doubt getting that high a pick also based on last year! Just cross out fingers!

[ThreeOneSix 954]

Franklin will be a 19 Compensation at best.

People on here expecting 21-21 for Sylvia are dreaming.

No, we are not dreaming.

Franklin is pick 19 due to Hawthorn winning the flag.

If Hawthorn ended up where MFC did, they'd obviously get a much higher pick.

A case can be made that sides that do win the flag - don't need as great a compo.

In other sports, usually that freed up cap space is somewhat of a reward in itself - but those are often sports with an unlimited cap.

I think the AFL has a long way to go to get the structure right, for the time being there will be big grey areas in the FA structure that the AFL currently has in place.

On Sylvia though, given that Port got second rounders for Chaplin and Pearce, then we will be getting one for Colin.

Not only was Sylvia a higher pick, but he was arguably better performed than both and on a better dollar.

[Sir Why You Little 37,134]

No, we are not dreaming.

Franklin is pick 19 due to Hawthorn winning the flag.

If Hawthorn ended up where MFC did, they'd obviously get a much higher pick.

A case can be made that sides that do win the flag - don't need as great a compo.

In other sports, usually that freed up cap space is somewhat of a reward in itself - but those are often sports with an unlimited cap.

I think the AFL has a long way to go to get the structure right, for the time being there will be big grey areas in the FA structure that the AFL currently has in place.

On Sylvia though, given that Port got second rounders for Chaplin and Pearce, then we will be getting one for Colin.

Not only was Sylvia a higher pick, but he was arguably better performed than both and on a better dollar.

10 years as an average footballer.

Franklin is light years ahead of Col.

[Mgdee 322]

No, we are not dreaming.

Franklin is pick 19 due to Hawthorn winning the flag.

If Hawthorn ended up where MFC did, they'd obviously get a much higher pick.

A case can be made that sides that do win the flag - don't need as great a compo.

In other sports, usually that freed up cap space is somewhat of a reward in itself - but those are often sports with an unlimited cap.

I think the AFL has a long way to go to get the structure right, for the time being there will be big grey areas in the FA structure that the AFL currently has in place.

On Sylvia though, given that Port got second rounders for Chaplin and Pearce, then we will be getting one for Colin.

Not only was Sylvia a higher pick, but he was arguably better performed than both and on a better dollar.

The AFL will probably decide we don't need any compensation because we now have Roos, we "didn't " tank and we have so much latent talent on our list.

[rpfc 28,779]

Sorry rp but wasn't having a go at you, just didn't understand the system. And if the tables were turned we would be outraged! Lucky as all blazes to get a pick like 22 if that's the case. So as long as we pick up no RFA or UFA we are sweet?

Yes. But we can trade for them or get DFA players.

[rpfc 28,779]

DA and WJ - the reason why we got shafted last year is because we tried to 'up' our net loss last year as the AFL said that you will get a pick of the net players lost with the net value lost - so we thought we were turning two third round picks into one 2nd round pick by getting Byrnes.

And I know Moloney was a decent player but we dropped him in the latter part of the season, and he isn't on much coin in Brisbane and that gets taken into account of course. The AFL effectively ruled we didn't want him...

We played the colin situation much better, played the entire year and we actually tried to keep him unlike when Neeld said goodbye to Moloney as FA opened.

Edited October 5, 2013 by rpfc

[Radar Detector 1,347]

10 years as an average footballer.

Franklin is light years ahead of Col.

You miss the point. Franklin would be a band 1 and Sylvia a band 3 which reflects the significant difference in ability and output. The closeness in picks is only because we finished 16 spots apart on the ladder...

[Sir Why You Little 37,134]

You miss the point. Franklin would be a band 1 and Sylvia a band 3 which reflects the significant difference in ability and output. The closeness in picks is only because we finished 16 spots apart on the ladder...

i understand the ladder positions.

If Franklin goes at 19 the best we can hope for is mid 30's at best.

[rpfc 28,779]

There will be 17 first round picks (I believe GWS has a mid round pick, and Ess and Ade are out of course).

Thomas and Franklin will be Band 1 if no trade is done - Pick 12 and 19 respectively.

Pick 20+ is where Band 2 picks are placed. There might not be any... So GWS Pick 20, MFC Pick 21, MFC Band 3 Compensation Pick 22, et al.

That is how it works and I expect it to happen.

[deejammin' 2,373]

DJ - Sydney got him because of their allowance. Otherwise, he would be at GWS where he is sorely needed. I wouldn't put it past The Bloated One to stop it even this late and send him there.

FA is without bias, the clubs that have room and a good pitch can get good players. We haven't had a good pitch, but that tone will change with Roos will it not?

Moloney was not wanted by the MFC and while we can all hide behind Neeld ruining him, I don't think his departure hurt at all. His lack of leadership, finger pointing, front running, and inability to get to contests wore thin with me as I wrote in his last couple of years.

Rivers was playing forward for us in his last year for all those revisionists - we had moved past him.

The Sylvia situation was played well by the club. Roos wants to imprint a culture on this place and Colin would be more of a hindrance than a help. Of all his transgressions I know that not all were actually reported.

And the club, and FA, should deliver us Pick 22 for Colin so don't just dismiss that chance to suit your argument.

Should Frawley leave next year he will net is a top 5 pick or a very good trade.

FA rewards smart clubs, oddly enough I think that Port has been the smartest; they got two second round picks for Chaplin and Pearce, traded for FA Monfries, and have already been on the attack with the signing of Matt White.

We are worried because we have been a terribly run club, but how about we try and be a well run club instead of worrying about a system that will not leave.

Hi RPFC, I think ultimately we agree on Franklin then, in so much as it seems contrary to the intent of FA that a team like Sydney can outbid a team like GWS for Franklin. If they make large cuts to do it then it makes sense but so far it appears unfair. I don't see how the AFL can stop it though. Hopefully it means the death of COLA.

I'm not sure on FA either way, I think the post I put up of the results so far are very ambiguous, it has clearly hurt some clubs while helping others. Whether there are trends there it is too early to tell, certainly I don't think it has gone very well for the MFC, that may be because we have mishandled it, but it is also because unfortunately FA came in when we were at our lowest Ebb. FA would have been much better for MFC in 2001 or 1988. I also don't think Port were "smart" in getting 2nd round picks for Chaplain and Pearce, I think they were the lucky beneficiaries of a bizarre compo system. Certainly I don't think Rivers + Moloney - Byrnes = worse than Pearce and Chaplain.

Also, for the record I didn't leave Sylvia's compo pick out to suit my argument, I left it out as we don't know what it is yet. However, I don't think it will be what we need right now. I don't see us trading this pick for a better player than Sylvia, and it has been pretty well acknowledged that we don't need talented kids as desperately as we need experienced, hard-bodied midfielders. I have vivid memories of everyone on this site talking up what we would get for Moloney and Rivers only to discover a pretty terrible result. I think that may happen again. I'm expecting the worst compo band.

regarding last year

i don't understand the logic of "netting" out FAs as was the case with Byrnes

this cost us a lot

if a side gets a FA but doesn't lose a FA (like Freo currently) there is no penalty

yet last year we got a penalty for getting a FA (Byrnes)

that to me is illogical. Some get penalised for getting a FA and some get no penalty for getting a FA

solution. don't count getting a FA in all cases.

compensation given on a per player lost FA

so last year we should have got 2 compensation picks based on circumstances of each player

just my 2c

I think this is a great point, it punishes teams for gaining and losing players, something clubs may have no control over. I think your proposed changes would be vastly better.