The Hawthorn List

[jnrmac 20,271]

Some interesting (to me anyway) observations about Hawthorn's list:

The Imports

They have filled gaps probably better than any club. They have players wanting to go to the club which helps. But they have lured Gunston, Burgoyne, Lake, Gibson and Hale. All have been tremendous pick ups and held down critical positions.

Body shape

They have a lot that are in the same vein. Tall but not particularly big:

Shiels 183cm/84kgs, Suckling 187/86, Smith 188/82, Ellis 187/80. Gunston 193/84, Lewis 186/88, Savage 182/82, Bruest 184/84

These guys are strong and contest as well as anyone yet they aren't massively big. In fact I'd say they look skinny. We can seem to get the right combination of strength. speed and endurance.

Speed

Smith, Rioli, Bruest, Buddy give them great run. We are so far behind them in speed it ain't funny.

Kicking skills

Goes without saying but they are extraordinary with their accuracy - altho it helps greatly they run and spread incredibly well.

System

Their press and pressure were outstanding. They seem to have changed it slightly but everyone does their job and their captain is brilliant at organising everyone around him. In the last quarter he went back and even though Lake was having a blinder, Hodge marshalled the troops back there as well as anyone ever has.

The culture of the club is amazing, here is a club that played in 8 GFs straight yet found themselves on the poor end of a merger proposal, The way they have re-engineered the club is actually pretty incredible.

We have a long way to go.

BTW FWIW was speaking to a Swans premiership player yesterday about Roos and he said he was really good but he wont hang around if its not working - hence the 2y contract with a third year option.....

[jumbo returns 6,741]

Some interesting (to me anyway) observations about Hawthorn's list:

The Imports

They have filled gaps probably better than any club. They have players wanting to go to the club which helps. But they have lured Gunston, Burgoyne, Lake, Gibson and Hale. All have been tremendous pick ups and held down critical positions.

Body shape

They have a lot that are in the same vein. Tall but not particularly big:

Shiels 183cm/84kgs, Suckling 187/86, Smith 188/82, Ellis 187/80. Gunston 193/84, Lewis 186/88, Savage 182/82, Bruest 184/84

These guys are strong and contest as well as anyone yet they aren't massively big. In fact I'd say they look skinny. We can seem to get the right combination of strength. speed and endurance.

Speed

Smith, Rioli, Bruest, Buddy give them great run. We are so far behind them in speed it ain't funny.

Kicking skills

Goes without saying but they are extraordinary with their accuracy - altho it helps greatly they run and spread incredibly well.

System

Their press and pressure were outstanding. They seem to have changed it slightly but everyone does their job and their captain is brilliant at organising everyone around him. In the last quarter he went back and even though Lake was having a blinder, Hodge marshalled the troops back there as well as anyone ever has.

The culture of the club is amazing, here is a club that played in 8 GFs straight yet found themselves on the poor end of a merger proposal, The way they have re-engineered the club is actually pretty incredible.

We have a long way to go.

BTW FWIW was speaking to a Swans premiership player yesterday about Roos and he said he was really good but he wont hang around if its not working - hence the 2y contract with a third year option.....

Let's not forget their outstanding drafting, coaching structures, excellent mid field and their off field business acumen.

I agree that the players you've mentioned are the shape of the game now....180 - 195cm, 80 - 90 kgs players that run like the wind, strong around the hips and elite kicking skills.

Yep, we have a bloody long way to go.

Edited September 29, 2013 by jumbo returns

[dpositive 1,818]

Thanks JM for that info

It confirms my ill informed but persistent expression that it aint the players but the coaching that has been the most significant issue for many years at our club

As with any recent premiers it is the overall team composition using the skill they possess and having strategies to maximise those skills that gives the basis of performance. Placement reaction and the ability to absorb pressure and still perform are then the elements that give an edge. Not everyone is a champion but they contribute to add to the champion input.

I hope Roos can instil the attributes of team work and team cohesiveness that great teams have. We then have the icing on the cake with some latent elite performers . By elite I mean those who perform above their normal on big occasions.

Something like that it is still a bit early on Sunday but good post by you

[old dee 23,998]

Two things I notice yesterday about the Hawks group.

- You don't need a great Ruckman to win a GF .

- Buddy was less than a match winner, I know he soaked up a defender all day, but IMO the Hawks can win another flag without him.

In fact they might be better served by having his salary space to recruit players.

[old dee 23,998]

Thanks JM for that info

It confirms my ill informed but persistent expression that it aint the players but the coaching that has been the most significant issue for many years at our club

As with any recent premiers it is the overall team composition using the skill they possess and having strategies to maximise those skills that gives the basis of performance. Placement reaction and the ability to absorb pressure and still perform are then the elements that give an edge. Not everyone is a champion but they contribute to add to the champion input.

I hope Roos can instil the attributes of team work and team cohesiveness that great teams have. We then have the icing on the cake with some latent elite performers . By elite I mean those who perform above their normal on big occasions.

Something like that it is still a bit early on Sunday but good post by you

depositive you need both.

No coach can turn plodders into grand finalists.

Did Malthouse turn Carlton into a G finalists over night?

Please don't raise Port they started with a decent player base.

Roos may be able to improve the our team marginally but without a big improvement in skill we will continue to bump along the bottom.

Edited September 29, 2013 by old dee

[jumbo returns 6,741]

Two things I notice yesterday about the Hawks group.

- You don't need a great Ruckman to win a GF .

- Buddy was less than a match winner, I know he soaked up a defender all day, but IMO the Hawks can win another flag without him.

In fact they might be better served by having his salary space to recruit players.

Big call, od.

Buddy was sensational, team orientated and did some really tough things in close - putting his freakish ability aside, all our list can have a look at his game from a TEAM perspective and be prepared to become more focussed on the bigger picture.

I knew Freo were not going to win yesterday Ballantyne marked 40 metres out, had Walter FREE in the square for a good 10 seconds, saw him, but didn't pass it - all over.

[old dee 23,998]

Big call, od.

Buddy was sensational, team orientated and did some really tough things in close - putting his freakish ability aside, all our list can have a look at his game from a TEAM perspective and be prepared to become more focussed on the bigger picture.

I knew Freo were not going to win yesterday Ballantyne marked 40 metres out, had Walter FREE in the square for a good 10 seconds, saw him, but didn't pass it - all over.

Probably partly because I think he is off to GWS anyway jr.

Perhaps I am trying to justify his moving on but I don't think he is the reason the Hawks got there

and I reckon they will play in the GF 2014 without him.

[dpositive 1,818]

depositive you need both.

No coach can turn plodders into grand finalists.

Did Malthouse turn Carlton into a G finalists over night?

Please don't raise Port they started with a decent player base.

Roos may be able to improve the our team marginally but without a big improvement in skill we will continue to bump along the bottom.

Ok can conceed that

I guess I think we have already got a greater deal of underutilised talent an am hoping the coach can rectify both those deficiencies through inspired training, match day and management strategies.

So yes can concentrate on skills of our decent player base (HAdnt thought of port)

[DeeSpencer 26,266]

Buddy finally attacked the contest and used his pace and size yesterday. But at the same time didn't have much impact on the game. He's out of form that's for sure.

I disagree about not needing a great ruckman. Hawthorn did an amazing job in the first quarter at tackling and stopping Freo winning clearances but as the game went on especially in the third and start of fourth quarter Sandilands was smashing them. Mundy and Fyfe were the dominant mids on the ground.

Unfortunately for Freo they just weren't switched on in the first quarter. They had some bad shots on goal and other chances were the final kick/handball forward went missing and with a 2-3 goal breeze at least were 2 goals down at quarter time. That's a huge deficit.

Back to the Hawthorn list I'm not that overawed with their trading in. They had a dominant young team in 2008 after drafting and developing guys like Lewis, Franklin, Rioli, Roughead, Birchall to go with Hodge, Mitchell and Sewell. That had them so well placed for years to come that they were incredibly popular for any recruits. Burgoyne obviously wanted to go to Hawthorn. Gibson wanted to play with Buddy as much as he wanted out of the Hawks. Hale saw what happened with Gibson and wanted it as well. And freaking Gunston, got home sick after 1 week at Adelaide but of course only wanted to return to the hawks. And Lake was an absolute steal but not many other clubs wanted/needed him. Pretty much when you assemble the young talent the hawks did then all the out of contract players see a great opportunity.

Their kicking skills are elite but Freo played into their hands at times when they rushed the counter attack into no one with an extra hawk defender. Hawthorns chip it around plan is actually a defensive plan as much as how to move the ball forward because it slows the game and lets defenders get in positions to minimise turnovers and damage from turnovers.

[Sir Why You Little 37,296]

To Beat them we need a similiar attitude throughout the entire club.

I want to Beat Whorethorn in September on a regular basis.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Buddy finally attacked the contest and used his pace and size yesterday. But at the same time didn't have much impact on the game. He's out of form that's for sure.

I disagree about not needing a great ruckman. Hawthorn did an amazing job in the first quarter at tackling and stopping Freo winning clearances but as the game went on especially in the third and start of fourth quarter Sandilands was smashing them. Mundy and Fyfe were the dominant mids on the ground.

Unfortunately for Freo they just weren't switched on in the first quarter. They had some bad shots on goal and other chances were the final kick/handball forward went missing and with a 2-3 goal breeze at least were 2 goals down at quarter time. That's a huge deficit.

Back to the Hawthorn list I'm not that overawed with their trading in. They had a dominant young team in 2008 after drafting and developing guys like Lewis, Franklin, Rioli, Roughead, Birchall to go with Hodge, Mitchell and Sewell. That had them so well placed for years to come that they were incredibly popular for any recruits. Burgoyne obviously wanted to go to Hawthorn. Gibson wanted to play with Buddy as much as he wanted out of the Hawks. Hale saw what happened with Gibson and wanted it as well. And freaking Gunston, got home sick after 1 week at Adelaide but of course only wanted to return to the hawks. And Lake was an absolute steal but not many other clubs wanted/needed him. Pretty much when you assemble the young talent the hawks did then all the out of contract players see a great opportunity.

Disagree. The talented list that snared a flag in 2008 came up short in 2009 and 2010 and lacked the guns to be the best.

The Hawks had carefully plotted the improvement of their list by bringing in outside talent. They have add the right players at the right time to get them across the line. And each player they have drafted from other clubs has been better at Hawthorn than they were at the old clubs. They have traded brilliantly and its was three of the players they brought in Lake, Gunston and Hale that were critical in getting them that flag. Outstanding drafting.

[dee-luded 2,959]

Thanks JM for that info

It confirms my ill informed but persistent expression that it aint the players but the coaching that has been the most significant issue for many years at our club

As with any recent premiers it is the overall team composition using the skill they possess and having strategies to maximise those skills that gives the basis of performance. Placement reaction and the ability to absorb pressure and still perform are then the elements that give an edge. Not everyone is a champion but they contribute to add to the champion input.

I hope Roos can instil the attributes of team work and team cohesiveness that great teams have. We then have the icing on the cake with some latent elite performers . By elite I mean those who perform above their normal on big occasions.

Something like that it is still a bit early on Sunday but good post by you

coaching you haven't looked back far enough.. its the decision making processes over generations that have hampered us. from the Board & then down.

really weak decisions since the early 90's has killed of all the gains off the 80's hard work.

we've just not been a Footy club

we've been an organisation to visit.

.... finally the Afl had to step in, before there was a EGM & Riot, before final oblivion.

we just haven't had footy smart people at the top since the late 80's.

[Little Richard 6,265]

Some interesting (to me anyway) observations about Hawthorn's list:

Body shape

They have a lot that are in the same vein. Tall but not particularly big:

Shiels 183cm/84kgs, Suckling 187/86, Smith 188/82, Ellis 187/80. Gunston 193/84, Lewis 186/88, Savage 182/82, Bruest 184/84

These guys are strong and contest as well as anyone yet they aren't massively big. In fact I'd say they look skinny. We can seem to get the right combination of strength. speed and endurance.

Personally I think part of this is probably to do with the make of their jumper - the vertical stripes can make the players look leaner.

But going by KG a few of them, particularly Gunston, are lighter than usual.

[dee-luded 2,959]

Personally I think part of this is probably to do with the make of their jumper - the vertical stripes can make the players look leaner.

But going by KG a few of them, particularly Gunston, are lighter than usual.

they may already be building in more endurance at the expence of power, in prep for next year & lesser rotations?

agility was a factor yesterday

[Whispering_Jack 31,129]

Hawthorn did make a few mistakes along the way but for the most part, the drafting and trading have been exemplary.

I suppose it started when they traded Trent Croad, once a problem child for them, to Fremantle and got Luke Hodge. His two premierships now eclipse the other two in the trio of wunderkinder that year, the others being Luke Ball and Chris Judd who have one flag each. I also put Hodge down as the best leader among that group. They also picked up Luke McPharlin in that time who they traded to Freo to get Croad back when he matured and became a contributor to their 2008 flag.

The next great acquisition was Clarkson himself and, after losing just enough games (strange how that happened so often), they managed to hit the jackpot in the 2004 national draft with Roughead, Franklin and Lewis (the latter a nice trade into pick 7 that got them three picks in the top 10).

Then followed a mixture of good drafting (Birchall, Rioli) and trading (Dew, Guerra) despite some blemishes (Ellis, Thorpe, Dowler).

After winning the flag in 2008 their trading has been impeccable as documented by others above but let's not forget that the drafted brilliantly as well given the lack of high draft picks. Isaac Smith was a late first rounder (at 19 after some genius took Lucas Cook at 12), Paul Puopolo (66), Stratton (46), Duryea (69), Suckling (rookie), Shiels (34), Savage (75) ... I could go on but it might make you ill ...

[DeeSpencer 26,266]

Disagree. The talented list that snared a flag in 2008 came up short in 2009 and 2010 and lacked the guns to be the best.

The Hawks had carefully plotted the improvement of their list by bringing in outside talent. They have add the right players at the right time to get them across the line. And each player they have drafted from other clubs has been better at Hawthorn than they were at the old clubs. They have traded brilliantly and its was three of the players they brought in Lake, Gunston and Hale that were critical in getting them that flag. Outstanding drafting.

Yeah but they had all the youngsters that made them such a massive attraction. No different to Collingwood bringing in Jolly and Tarrant.

They certainly got their picks right in guys like Hale and Lake. They paid for them and took them in and even improved their form. But Gunston was a massive freebie just like the cats getting Caddy last year. Both teams underpaid for them as well but as is the nature of trade week the original club (ie Adelaide) had to take the offer on the table or lose Gunston for nothing.

[DeeSpencer 26,266]

Hawthorn did make a few mistakes along the way but for the most part, the drafting and trading have been exemplary.

I suppose it started when they traded Trent Croad, once a problem child for them, to Fremantle and got Luke Hodge. His two premierships now eclipse the other two in the trio of wunderkinder that year, the others being Luke Ball and Chris Judd who have one flag each. I also put Hodge down as the best leader among that group. They also picked up Luke McPharlin in that time who they traded to Freo to get Croad back when he matured and became a contributor to their 2008 flag.

That's not right. It was McPharlin and Croad for pick 1 (hodge), pick 20 (didn't make) and pick 30 something (Sam Mitchell).

It shows that there list was actually ok at the time but they couldn't hold McPharlin and made a big call on Croad and in turn got 2 champions who were the back bone of the 2008 flag. They also went down hill for a while in 2004 as you mentioned. Which coincided with Mitchell and Hodge turning into guns just after that. Very good timing! I'm not sure what the Croad trade back was for but it was much cheaper than what he was sent off at.

McPharlin and Croad deal for Freo wasn't too bad. It's just they didn't have the culture and professionalism at the time to turn those guys into the book end talls that they could've been together. Instead Croad didn't work out but McPharlin certainly did. If Freo had their time again they would've picked Hodge and traded pick 20 and 30 whatever for just McPharlin. Swapping Hodge to the other team might have been enough to make the difference yesterday I'm pretty sure.

[Sir Why You Little 37,296]

coaching you haven't looked back far enough.. its the decision making processes over generations that have hampered us. from the Board & then down.

really weak decisions since the early 90's has killed of all the gains off the 80's hard work.

we've just not been a Footy club

we've been an organisation to visit.

.... finally the Afl had to step in, before there was a EGM & Riot, before final oblivion.

we just haven't had footy smart people at the top since the late 80's.

Some disrespect towards the Rev Neale Danniher here DL.

you didn't mention the Northern Stand.

Amazing.

[Little Goffy 14,750]

Every time I see Gunston playing that decisively effective third tall role, I am reminded of Cameron Bruce, maybe just because of the vague resemblance. But what I can't shake is that Bruce was about the same build as Gunston, but Gunston somehow seems to be a whole lot firmer. All lean muscle.

'Lean muscle' should be plastered on the inside of the eyelids of every conditioning and fitness coach in the AFL. Possibly alongside 'strong hips'.

One thing I think Hawthorn did well was not get sucked into the 'traditional' concepts of what a footballer should be like. They have a lot of 'short' guys (Puopolo, Osborne, Rioli, Hill and Mitchell all 180cm or less) and ever their inside high-collision role-players tend to be quite balanced in body shape.

Come to think of it, Fremantle are a team with plenty of lean players, as well. Not a single meatwad on their list.I'm pretty sure footywire had a typo for the only player they have listed as being significantly 'over' on the weight-to-height ratio - Danyle Pearce at 182cm and 89kg is about Moloney proportions on those numbers!

[praha 11,253]

Two things I notice yesterday about the Hawks group.

- You don't need a great Ruckman to win a GF .

- Buddy was less than a match winner, I know he soaked up a defender all day, but IMO the Hawks can win another flag without him.

In fact they might be better served by having his salary space to recruit players.

Don't underestimate the benefit of having an X-factor in your team. You say Buddy soaked up a defender: would the players they get in if they lose Buddy dictate similarly aggressive defense from the opposition?

Yeah, they can win a flag, but they're a better system with him.

[Machsy 2,858]

The Hawks were able to trade pick 10 for Croad to come back, cleverly trading out of the epically weak 2003 afl draft, notable for MFC picking up Sylvia and McLean.

Pick 10 netted Riley Dunn for Freo, who was a consummate failure.

Apart from picking up McPharlin, Freo were massive losers in the Croad Trade Chronicles.

[Little Richard 6,265]

Don't underestimate the benefit of having an X-factor in your team. You say Buddy soaked up a defender: would the players they get in if they lose Buddy dictate similarly aggressive defense from the opposition?

Yeah, they can win a flag, but they're a better system with him.

That can't be said until we see what they play like for an extended period of time without him.

I think they could be better without him, but we'll have to wait and see.

[Whispering_Jack 31,129]

That's not right. It was McPharlin and Croad for pick 1 (hodge), pick 20 (didn't make) and pick 30 something (Sam Mitchell).

Thanks for the correction. I was close but no ceegar

However, it does outline the clever approach and good fortune the club experienced and shows the value of having good people in charge of recruiting.

On Sam Mitchell, I remember him playing against Sandringham as a Box Hill top up player after he missed out on being drafted. I watched the game near his family on the grassy knoll at TBO and though Mitchell got a lot of the footy, he appeared slow and loped around the ground. The popular wisdom among the cognoscenti standing near me was that he would never make it. At the end of that year, he won the Liston Trophy and was drafted by Hawthorn. The rest, as they say, is geography.

[jumbo returns 6,741]

Thanks for the correction. I was close but no ceegar

However, it does outline the clever approach and good fortune the club experienced and shows the value of having good people in charge of recruiting.

On Sam Mitchell, I remember him playing against Sandringham as a Box Hill top up player after he missed out on being drafted. I watched the game near his family on the grassy knoll at TBO and though Mitchell got a lot of the footy, he appeared slow and loped around the ground. The popular wisdom among the cognoscenti standing near me was that he would never make it. At the end of that year, he won the Liston Trophy and was drafted by Hawthorn. The rest, as they say, is geography.

Yep - heard the same thing. A school footy coach I worked with said....'Nup, won't make it. Too slow.'

[jnrmac 20,271]

Personally I think part of this is probably to do with the make of their jumper - the vertical stripes can make the players look leaner.

But going by KG a few of them, particularly Gunston, are lighter than usual.

You could be right about the vertical stripes! Lets look at ours that are of similar build.

Trengove 185/85

Sylvia 186/87

McKenzie 186/82

Strauss 185/85

Grimes 187/85

Bail 183/82

Terlich 186/85

They all look a bit stockier than their Hawk counterparts..

Bail is probably the closest ti the Hawk guys. Good endurance. pretty quick. Just can't kick.

Strauss is the one that should be tearing it up for us by now. And I hope Grimes is having kicking lessons over summer.

And the other thing is the number of left footers. The Dorks have so many of them....