Patrick Smith's view on Dank - Post-inquiry, star of peptide show will be a thespian without a stage

As it is ASADA did not need to talk to Dank. It was suggested to The Australian yesterday that the details of Danks two interviews by the Australian Crime Commission would have been available to ASADA officials, courtesy one government body to another.

Damning.

You're getting close Red

Of course. Dank has always be the Ace in the pack from Day 1.

I hope WADA are monitoring all this carefully.

Patrick Smith's view on Dank - Post-inquiry, star of peptide show will be a thespian without a stage

This is strong stuff. For those who can't get beyond the paywall, Smith puts the boot into Dank for not clearing Essendon people he claims are innocent by telling all he knows to ASADA. He also comments on the issue of the ACC role which some posters have questioned:

As it is ASADA did not need to talk to Dank. It was suggested to The Australian yesterday that the details of Danks two interviews by the Australian Crime Commission would have been available to ASADA officials, courtesy one government body to another.

...

Dank has played the role of friend and saviour of players and administrators at Cronulla and Essendon.

...

Yet he continues to refuse do the one thing that could have saved them (show cause letters against footballers are being drawn up right now) and that is to tell the appropriate authorities what he knows and what he did.

If Notices are served on Bombers players and they fight them, what is the basis of their defence? It can really only be one major point, we didn't take banned substances.

How do you prove that? The club says it has no records. No one at the club can give evidence of exactly what was given, to who and when.That has been stated by the club several times.

Guess who might be the only witness who might have records and might be able to give some evidence in the players' defence?

Alternatively if there are no club records what is the basis of the prosecution?

I would expect Notices should be based on more than circumstantial evidence.

It's definitely an art and there's no abstraction involved even when the person being interviewed is determined to say nothing. I've attended interviews as an observer where interviewees who were determined to reveal nothing but were expertly coaxed into making disclosures by expert interviewers. Sometimes, something seemingly innocuous like a person's body language can tell you something that can be used in later examinations if matters go to court. In any event, you don't give up the ghost because you think the interviewee won't talk (unless you believe that you have sufficient to go on to prove your case).

He has already said to ASADA he won't voluntarily speak unless it's in front of a Federal court judge.

Patrick Smith's view on Dank - Post-inquiry, star of peptide show will be a thespian without a stage

......and given they have access to ACC interviews.....

ASADA wants to sidestep legal action, judging by chief's senate admission

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ASADA's failed attempts to seduce Dank into informal meetings, without threat of penalty, and Andruska's admission before a Senate hearing on Wednesday that briefs are being prepared for the ADRVP is a clear indication the anti-doping authority does not want Australia's most serious drugs case heard in open court.

After all, Dank is the central figure in the saga.

His evidence before a Federal Court could potentially expose a web of officials at either or both Essendon and Cronulla who had intimate knowledge of his supplements program.

This could reveal, as a myth, the notion that Dank was a rogue scientist acting alone.

... and ...

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When I asked why Dank had not been summoned the answer was: "They probably have enough without him."

Andruska's evidence before the Senate hints at both codes possibly being issued with show-cause letters.

She said: "We have briefs that we are preparing right now . . . and [will] issue show-cause letters and take matters through the ADRVP and other tribunals as the process proceeds."

Her mention of the plural with "tribunals" suggests both the AFL and NRL could be asked to convene hearings, provided the ADRVP agrees there is enough evidence.

ASADA wants to sidestep legal action, judging by chief's senate admission

... and ...

Masters is usually right on the ball and we could hear more from him if he appears on this week's edition of Offsiders on ABC1 (and Robbo and Whateley are certain to be entertaining with their spin on AFL360).

Both codes are facing difficult years in 2014 which could be a disaster for Essendon (I think Cronulla are stuffed no matter what) and almost certainly will be Demetriou's final one at the helm of the AFL.

As an aside, the Weapon's case against the Bombers is proceeding and I believe we will hear a lot more from the Fairfax investigative reporters Baker and McKenzie before this plays out. We also have Mark Thompson coaching at Essendon, Doc Reid back as the club doctor and James Hird coach-in-waiting ready to take back his old job in August.

Dramatic and sad times ahead for the sport.

& this is exactly what I've been saying for months. & the Poli's won't want this to go thru the courts either. its a no win for any Poli's.

the hornets nest was opened, & no one elected could cope with the outfall.

this will wither on the vine.

unfortunately another toothless tiger, because proof, & restraint of trade IMO will stop most any charges in their tracks.

I am damn curious as to the whole Danks non event but as some others suggest it might have been left alone for various reasons. Certainly one glaring aspect about all of this is the reticence of any party to date to go any where near a court room. One suspects there are just too many skeletons and much too much dirty laundry to even begin lifting a lid without fear it in some manner might not return to smear the instigator. No one is without guilt in some manner in all of this.

The AFL...a total fail in all of this. Seemed far too preoccupied with protecting its brand and the power of certain individuals. Essendon, just about as morally corrupt as any entity can be. Still Cronulla appears worse at their involvement but more circumspect fter the fact. ASADA seems inept and amateur in all of this, totally out of their depth. WADA ..must be shaking their head in dismay as so much can come undone. Various media hacks have shown their true colours and inability to preserve perspective let alone the subject of bias

That said it does appear to be finally drawing to its inevitable conclusion......i.e there were some naughty boys and 'spankies" are the order of the day.

whilst Danks may escape this round of the inquisition I cant help but feel a larger spectre looms over his head.

what ever is going to happen is it seems more than likely to start rolling out over the coming month.

Then it , to this observer, becomes inevitable someone will instigate legal proceedings and then at that time a whole new world of hurt will unveil.

Start looking for who starts making themselves scarce and who looks to other fields to further their careers... rats and ships !!

ah, beelz... finally

now you see where its going? straight towards the trash corner

ASADA wants to sidestep legal action, judging by chief's senate admission

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... and ...

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& this is exactly what I've been saying for months. & the Poli's won't want this to go thru the courts either. its a no win for any Poli's.

the hornets nest was opened, & no one elected could cope with the outfall.

this will wither on the vine.

unfortunately another toothless tiger, because proof, & restraint of trade IMO will stop most any charges in their tracks.

Sorry mate I can't see it going this way at all and don't see how you draw that conclusion. This is not a local issue it is a worldwide issue and if the local authorities don't deal with it then the international ones will. There is already pressure from other sports and if you notice one of the tribunals the paper trail goes through has a representative from cycling and they are not going to let any other sport get off lightly after the kicking they've had (admittedly their own fault).

ah, beelz... finally

now you see where its going? straight towards the trash corner

No i dont think it is at all.

Im leaning towards a hypothesis that builds upon the notion that whilst Danks is indeed very central to it all, as he would have to be what he may or may not bring to the table in terms of help in all these dealings may not be of the nature many would think or hope for. I.e I think his involvement would only cloud and hinder the process, at least at this time and position of process.

If, and granted a bit of a largish if, ASADA have garnered sufficient information as to allow them to move forward with notices without Dank's impedance then his value to others is not only diminished but his own position becomes compromised as he wont know what they have on him yet. Again whilst Danks is central he isnt actually the target per se of the infraction notices in the main. If the ACC and other depts have been able to put together the jigsaw between them then many ought to be very very worried.

Hird it would seem has been very reliant upon the non co-operation of Danks. This may become moot.

The whole debacle does not rest upon Danks. He just figures largely. As mathematicians have long known you dont need all of the information directly to extrapolate accurately for missing values.

WADA will not let this wither on the vine.

As much as Australians may wish it to happen.

Smith & Masters are by far the best daily Sports Journalists going around.

Alternatively if there are no club records what is the basis of the prosecution?

I would expect Notices should be based on more than circumstantial evidence.

One would presume that a failure to keep records could be the basis of a charge. It makes Essendon's defence weaker, in that it would appear that they paid for prohibited substances, where did those substances go? The players may slip through without charges but the club has much to answer for. OH& S issues may be the biggest problem.

One would presume that a failure to keep records could be the basis of a charge. It makes Essendon's defence weaker, in that it would appear that they paid for prohibited substances, where did those substances go? The players may slip through without charges but the club has much to answer for. OH& S issues may be the biggest problem.

agree it makes the club's position weaker

but....it does make the player's position stronger

and wada's main aim seems to put the onus and punishment on the player as the best deterrent, so not sure they like this

although asada could argue that keeping records should also be a player's responsibility

This is a time bomb for Essendon. (aptly)

By protecting the players they expose themselves not just now but into the future. If in later life players start to develop health problems Essendon have no records of what they didn't give to the players. May the ticking begin.

Sorry mate I can't see it going this way at all and don't see how you draw that conclusion. This is not a local issue it is a worldwide issue and if the local authorities don't deal with it then the international ones will. There is already pressure from other sports and if you notice one of the tribunals the paper trail goes through has a representative from cycling and they are not going to let any other sport get off lightly after the kicking they've had (admittedly their own fault).

I'm not talking about Wada, I'm referring to asada, & any political interference behind the scenes involving all parties.

WADA won't have much of a cross to bear from us, but local Poli's will run scared.

WADA will not let this wither on the vine.

As much as Australians may wish it to happen.

Smith & Masters are by far the best daily Sports Journalists going around.

that's good to hear WYL, because the way they are hand ling It at the moment, they all l@@k nothing more than 'Masters & his Johnson' spending some time.

No i dont think it is at all.

Im leaning towards a hypothesis that builds upon the notion that whilst Danks is indeed very central to it all, as he would have to be what he may or may not bring to the table in terms of help in all these dealings may not be of the nature many would think or hope for. I.e I think his involvement would only cloud and hinder the process, at least at this time and position of process.

If, and granted a bit of a largish if, ASADA have garnered sufficient information as to allow them to move forward with notices without Dank's impedance then his value to others is not only diminished but his own position becomes compromised as he wont know what they have on him yet. Again whilst Danks is central he isnt actually the target per se of the infraction notices in the main. If the ACC and other depts have been able to put together the jigsaw between them then many ought to be very very worried.

Hird it would seem has been very reliant upon the non co-operation of Danks. This may become moot.

The whole debacle does not rest upon Danks. He just figures largely. As mathematicians have long known you dont need all of the information directly to extrapolate accurately for missing values.

Dank won't give any evidence.

if they had evidence, he would likely go to jail?

the onus to collect proof,. is in the hands of the investigators, & since the many substances were mixed here in Aus, they won't know who's taken what. & I'm sure the pharmacist won't talk.

so it comes back to customs declarations of what was imported? & the accuracy of those records.

One would presume that a failure to keep records could be the basis of a charge. It makes Essendon's defence weaker, in that it would appear that they paid for prohibited substances, where did those substances go? The players may slip through without charges but the club has much to answer for. OH& S issues may be the biggest problem.

I am not sure that is ASADAs focus. I know WADA were considering their remit over sporting club governance and record keeping failures but the horse has bolted on this on.

I would argue (regretfully) that the lack of records actually acts in Essendon's favour as it makes harder to prove where the substances went.

I think its a pipe dream to expect the players to be exonerated because of the failings of others. They are fully responsible for what goes into their body under ASADA rules. Bruckner and others have confirmed this plain and clear.

This is a time bomb for Essendon. (aptly)

By protecting the players they expose themselves not just now but into the future. If in later life players start to develop health problems Essendon have no records of what they didn't give to the players. May the ticking begin.

It's been ticking for at least 12 months.

I don't think Eseendon have done much at all for the players ...just the opposite.

It's been ticking for at least 12 months.

I don't think Eseendon have done much at all for the players ...just the opposite.

It would appear that Essendon have behaved in their own self interest all along, part of that is an inadvertent act that may save the players from charges. I would be appalled to have a son playing for them and would be taking legal/medical advice re action against the club in the future, but keeping powder dry for now. This is far from the end.

Dank won't give any evidence.

if they had evidence, he would likely go to jail?

the onus to collect proof,. is in the hands of the investigators, & since the many substances were mixed here in Aus, they won't know who's taken what. & I'm sure the pharmacist won't talk.

so it comes back to customs declarations of what was imported? & the accuracy of those records.

Dank is somewhat relying ( imho) on the reluctance of others as much as his self to appear in a court room lest all hell let loose.

Dank is also ( imho ) placing far too much import on his position and ability to dodge the inquisition. He may only think the inquisition has passed him by where as in all likely hood its been shadowing him all along.

Upon this appearance of untouchability have others it seems placed their faith of evasion ( hearing me James ? )

My understanding ( happy to be corrected ) is that WADA/ASADA can happily utilise anything circumstantial ( much like the French system) and it will be incumbent upon the individual to prove innocence.

If the players cant prove they WEREN'T participant , that they didnt take the prohibited substances but something more innocuous ne 'safe' then they may be in for a whole lot of pain.

we've been talking about essendon and its players with regard to what asada might do

but what about punishing danks?

will asada (try to) ban him from all asada compliant competitions/clubs and maybe fine him (doubtful)?

they can hardly punish others without punishing him.........or can they?

we've been talking about essendon and its players with regard to what asada might do

but what about punishing danks?

will asada (try to) ban him from all asada compliant competitions/clubs and maybe fine him (doubtful)?

they can hardly punish others without punishing him.........or can they?

I think his day will come.

I'm not talking about Wada, I'm referring to asada, & any political interference behind the scenes involving all parties.

WADA won't have much of a cross to bear from us, but local Poli's will run scared.

...and I'm saying it won't happen partly because WADA will be taking an interest in proceedings.

Dank is somewhat relying ( imho) on the reluctance of others as much as his self to appear in a court room lest all hell let loose.

Dank is also ( imho ) placing far too much import on his position and ability to dodge the inquisition. He may only think the inquisition has passed him by where as in all likely hood its been shadowing him all along.

Upon this appearance of untouchability have others it seems placed their faith of evasion ( hearing me James ? )

My understanding ( happy to be corrected ) is that WADA/ASADA can happily utilise anything circumstantial ( much like the French system) and it will be incumbent upon the individual to prove innocence.

If the players cant prove they WEREN'T participant , that they didnt take the prohibited substances but something more innocuous ne 'safe' then they may be in for a whole lot of pain.

who has got any evidence on him. no one except maybe the pharmacist who mixed the concoctions.

& some possible circumstantial import invoices.

but with experimental substances, that customs wouldn't have even have hird of, they probably couldn't test the substances at the airport.

the only one would be the pharmacist, who is I think, an unreliable sort for a witness. even the pharmacist possibly doesn't know what the substances were he was mixing, if the Boss was clever.

the players certainly don't know what was injected, being told one thing is far from fact. unless they have a sample in a vial.