On 04/08/2013 at 00:38, Redleg said:

1) Every year there is a club at the bottom of the ladder, that is pathetic and is an easybeat. The last couple of years that is us. I am ignoring GWS because they clearly will rise with more games experience.

2) I believe we are about to appoint a good Footy Manager at season's end.

3) Players like Viney, Toumpas, Fitzy, Clisby, Terlich, Blease, Gawn, Kent, Taggert, Tynan and McDonald etc can improve.

1) Yes but it seems more often than not it is us, not just the last couple but the last 50 years and the last 7 in particular

2) Who? Sounds like you know something we don't

3) I think you're being pretty kind with some of those guys, most will be lucky to be on a list next year or do better than just be poor AFL players

  On 04/08/2013 at 23:50, Dr. Gonzo said:

1) Yes but it seems more often than not it is us, not just the last couple but the last 50 years and the last 7 in particular

2) Who? Sounds like you know something we don't

3) I think you're being pretty kind with some of those guys, most will be lucky to be on a list next year or do better than just be poor AFL players

Some on here are - again - are talking about the importance of high draft picks or going hard at the trade table in an effort to pick up strong midfielders with experience. Fair enough, I would like to see that too.

However, for too long this club seems to have subscribed to a belief that this will fix all our ills. Since 2006, we have relied on this strategy for far too long, without developing what we already had on our list and building a culture of self belief. As with all clubs, there will be dud picks or those that don't live up to their perceived potential. In my opinion, we have players who are better than what they have showed thus far, but I put this down to an endemic and poor culture at the club.

PJ has already identified this and that is what he intends to fix, with, hopefully, the right Footy Manager and the right Coach. As great as the pain we all feel is right now, let's not walk away just yet.

It is amazing how quickly things can turn around, with the right mentors in place. Port Adelaide being the prime example.

  On 05/08/2013 at 00:21, iv said:

Some on here are - again - are talking about the importance of high draft picks or going hard at the trade table in an effort to pick up strong midfielders with experience. Fair enough, I would like to see that too.

However, for too long this club seems to have subscribed to a belief that this will fix all our ills. Since 2006, we have relied on this strategy for far too long, without developing what we already had on our list and building a culture of self belief. As with all clubs, there will be dud picks or those that don't live up to their perceived potential. In my opinion, we have players who are better than what they have showed thus far, but I put this down to an endemic and poor culture at the club.

PJ has already identified this and that is what he intends to fix, with, hopefully, the right Footy Manager and the right Coach. As great as the pain we all feel is right now, let's not walk away just yet.

It is amazing how quickly things can turn around, with the right mentors in place. Port Adelaide being the prime example.

I agree with a lot of what you say above Iv'a

However there is one vital missing ingredient SKILL

Port had a number of players that were clearly better than ours.

Everything comes back to one fact.

We have drafted some shockers over the last 6 years.

Nothing will compensate for their replacement.

It is going to take 3 - 4 years to remedy that problem.

IMO there is not going to be any quick turn around.

Just a slow painful journey back to respectability.

  On 05/08/2013 at 01:07, old dee said:

I agree with a lot of what you say above Iv'a

However there is one vital missing ingredient SKILL

Port had a number of players that were clearly better than ours.

Everything comes back to one fact.

We have drafted some shockers over the last 6 years.

Nothing will compensate for their replacement.

It is going to take 3 - 4 years to remedy that problem.

IMO there is not going to be any quick turn around.

Just a slow painful journey back to respectability.

OD, the fact is neither of us can know the exact level of skill in some players, as most have had to play for a footy club which is underwhelming in its ability to instil the necessary level of confidence in the playing group. Sure, no doubt there are duds on the list, but I still believe we have a core group who are better than what they have displayed so far. The philosophy of high draft picks fixing everything and sitting back just waiting for it happen since 2006, has caused this club to be devoid of any sort of winning culture.

Belief brings a lot of skill into the game.

All these players can play. You don't get drafted if you don't tear up the lower leagues. It's lack of belief in the style; in the team; in their team mates; in themselves; and in the club.

Sure we're not going to be world beaters if that changes and nothing else does, but we'd be a different team with belief. Remember 87? Remember 2000? Were those teams suddenly that much more skillful leading into the last 6 or so games? Did they learn some new technical thing? Nope. They had faith in themselves, their teammates and the club.

Dunno how you get it back, but if we can we'll stop being that rabble that we are.

  On 05/08/2013 at 01:20, Carrot Top said:

Belief brings a lot of skill into the game.

All these players can play. You don't get drafted if you don't tear up the lower leagues. It's lack of belief in the style; in the team; in their team mates; in themselves; and in the club.

Sure we're not going to be world beaters if that changes and nothing else does, but we'd be a different team with belief. Remember 87? Remember 2000? Were those teams suddenly that much more skillful leading into the last 6 or so games? Did they learn some new technical thing? Nope. They had faith in themselves, their teammates and the club.

Dunno how you get it back, but if we can we'll stop being that rabble that we are.

Well said CT

  On 05/08/2013 at 01:14, iv said:

OD, the fact is neither of us can know the exact level of skill in some players, as most have had to play for a footy club which is underwhelming in its ability to instil the necessary level of confidence in the playing group. Sure, no doubt there are duds on the list, but I still believe we have a core group who are better than what they have displayed so far. The philosophy of high draft picks fixing everything and sitting back just waiting for it happen since 2006, has caused this club to be devoid of any sort of winning culture.

I doubt we are going to agree on the talent of our list iv'a.

IMO we have the worst list in the competition by some margin.

You cannot pull your socks up if you don't have any on.

Simply because you were a good under age player means just that.

There are lots of players selected in the first 50 players every year that do not make it.

We have unfortunately managed to pick way more of the "don't make its" than to "do's".

We simply need the best Football Manager in the land to over see our FD which at the moment is not running to AFL standard.

In many ways more important than the coach.

While I accept it was a different time. There were quite a number of players in this 1988 grand final team that weren't exactly A-Graders. Still, they gave me a lot to cheer about.

Melbourne B: 9 Alan Johnson 18 Steven Stretch 14 Rod Grinter HB: 34 Stephen Newport 28 Jamie Duursma 17 Brett Lovett C: 12 Todd Viney 7 Brian Wilson 8 Graeme Yeats HF: 3 Garry Lyon 5 Earl Spalding 15 David Williams F: 11 Jim Stynes 27 Sean Wight 45 Ricky Jackson Foll: 10 Danny Hughes 16 Andy Lovell 33 Greg Healy © Int: 37 David Flintoff 21 Steven Febey Coach: John Northey

  On 05/08/2013 at 00:21, iv said:

Some on here are - again - are talking about the importance of high draft picks or going hard at the trade table in an effort to pick up strong midfielders with experience. Fair enough, I would like to see that too.

However, for too long this club seems to have subscribed to a belief that this will fix all our ills. Since 2006, we have relied on this strategy for far too long, without developing what we already had on our list and building a culture of self belief. As with all clubs, there will be dud picks or those that don't live up to their perceived potential. In my opinion, we have players who are better than what they have showed thus far, but I put this down to an endemic and poor culture at the club.

PJ has already identified this and that is what he intends to fix, with, hopefully, the right Footy Manager and the right Coach. As great as the pain we all feel is right now, let's not walk away just yet.

It is amazing how quickly things can turn around, with the right mentors in place. Port Adelaide being the prime example.

Iva, I don't think anyone's truly walked away...

but in making a protest by not renewing & attending,,, has brought the practices of 25 years to a head & the AFL have stepped up to save the place from the ones who have systematically failed to grow the base of this club. ... and the failures to succeed from what should have been a large supporter base.

This would have funded our development. & our players, & our success

... instead we are an 'john west' organisation,,, & the pushing away & rejecting of base support, is making the organisation Unsustainable.

  On 03/08/2013 at 15:38, AdamFarr said:

Stop looking to the past and live in the present. Surely you've learnt that from the Schwab debacle? PJ has come in and said enough of that rubbish. Have respect for the past, but we have to move forward.

Fark me I have had enough ... WE saw the PRESENT on Saturday... I am totally embarassed and humiliated ...

  On 04/08/2013 at 07:13, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

I'm more optimistic. I think our list is in better shape - meaning it has much more potential - than at the time Bailey left. I'm convinced a properly functioning midfield will make all the difference. And that's the easiest part of a list to put together.

The players have had no continuity in coaching. There have been 6 senior coaches (3 permanent, 3 temporary) in the last 7 years. It must be hard to be a player in that sort of dynamic.

I agree to an extent here. Once we inject some experience and class into our midfield, we will improve drastically. Our list is in better shape than many outsiders and indeed MFC supporters think. We just have an absolutely dearth of talent and experience in the most important place on the ground.

Anyway, the part I disagree with is that the midfield is 'the easiest part of a list to put together'. Everyone says this, but to me it's a bit of a fallacy. I turned 26 in June and during my 26 years of supporting the MFC, I cannot recall us ever having an elite midfield. We've had front running midfields with some B graders that have had A grade years, but never consistent champs. That's what this club needs if it's to seriously challenge in this league. The rest of the pieces are slowly falling into the right place, but Cotchin's game against Hawthorn on Saturday highlighted further the importance of dominant midfielders, who can stand up against the very best opposition. We need A graders. We need at least two A graders to start with and then they will elevate someone like Nathan Jones to A grade.

It's easier said than done. I won't go into who we should target specifically, because I've banged on about that across a couple of other threads, but on the whole, I agree that we certainly have the makings (ie potential) of a very good list. It's all about development, experience and game plans.

We may appear soulless at the moment, but it was never going to turn around quickly. It takes a good HOF, a top-line coach that can instigate change and the continued support of the AFL to ensure our board and football club have the support they need to turn it around.

  On 05/08/2013 at 02:09, dee-luded said:

Iva, I don't think anyone's truly walked away...

but in making a protest by not renewing & attending,,, has brought the practices of 25 years to a head & the AFL have stepped up to save the place from the ones who have systematically failed to grow the base of this club. ... and the failures to succeed from what should have been a large supporter base.

This would have funded our development. & our players, & our success

... instead we are an 'john west' organisation,,, & the pushing away & rejecting of base support, is making the organisation Unsustainable.

I don't disagree with anything you have said. My point being that the underperformance of this footy club for so long, goes to the heart of the performance of the players. The issues that you rightly point out are so ingrained within the fabric of this club, that it has become a cancer that affects every other section of the club, including players and it needs to be cut out. In my view, we have at least started in the right direction with PJ at the helm

out of left field a little ... I watched The Gold Coast v WCE game and couldn't help notice the commitment of one Campbell Brown... He ran and ran and ran and even chased an opponent from 30 metres away until that opponent had actually released the ball and on many occasions he was bearing down on that player at such a rate he actually forced them to get rid of the ball and at times caused errors... Why can't we chase like this ?? Why don't WE want to run our gutses out for the club as Brown does.. He showed what grit and determination is all about... And he is not one of the younger players... I couldn't help thinking... What an example of passion and belief in what he is doing... We want that attitude in our players... THEN we can hold our heads high when we walk off the ground.... WIN or lose... Justsaying.........

  On 05/08/2013 at 02:19, iv said:

I don't disagree with anything you have said. My point being that the underperformance of this footy club for so long, goes to the heart of the performance of the players. The issues that you rightly point out are so ingrained within the fabric of this club, that it has become a cancer that affects every other section of the club, including players and it needs to be cut out. In my view, we have at least started in the right direction with PJ at the helm

thats right & I've been banging on about it making myself frowned on around here. the price you pay?

but I've had enough of this cancer... I new it was there, it was there in the 80's & it took a lot to break it down & Barass all but removed it.

..after which we had a period of healthy fortunes. but that petered away, after the same arrogance crept back in. this is the black side of our MCG home.

I had enough of it, before Barass came back, & I've had enough of it since 2006.... I was thinking then that that coach had to go as the cancer was evident, but only showing itself overtly every so many games. the writing was on the wall in 6 point print, but it was there.

... finally that team couldn't get themselves up to win for that coach, but won for a lesser caretaker, & we lost out on Cotchin...

the 'Soft' rot was certainly there, well & truly,,, but the winning games & the occasional flirt with finals, camouflaged it to most.

... the problem is we all thought that our Ex's,, after stints @ Hawthorn & Freo finals knew the way through our hells gate... time has shown they didn't & we got it badly wrong..

we went from 'lazy & weak' with aging talent, to new talent that was allowed to be soft & lazy.... we got worse than 2007 proved us.

the turning point was in late 2011... but that decision's 'good points', haven't been seen as yet, but they will have a very beneficial effect. we are on the way, but our culture has been cracked Open, and the new one hasn't really formed yet, so we are in a very vulnerable position atmo... like a Prem baby without a humidy crib.

we Must get a great coach this year... Or we tide it over for 12 months with what we've got, before that top coach is willing to Sign On.

... it's critical, we are on the cliff face looking out to see, knowing we cannot fly... but the authorities Know where we are, & have no intention of letting us fall.

  On 04/08/2013 at 23:44, Geddy Lee said:

We would be such a better team with Clark out there. Can you imagine if HFC lost Buddy for 1.5 seasons? For a short time he was so potent, such a focal point, and commanded the ball.

The players are at rock bottom mentally. Between Neeld's mismanagement, constant off-field turmoil, media diarrhoea and the colossal failure that is the current training program, they are not going to magically pull the club out of this mess. Sorry, they won't. It has to come from the top down. Because the top has failed in every way possible since 2008.

Yeah we'd kill it with Clark. Our 20 inside 50s would give him every opportunity to smash the opposition,..

And BTW have a look at HFCs record without Buddy.....

  On 04/08/2013 at 07:41, Al said:

Grimes needs to call Watts out at training and asks if he intends to go to Carlton. If so take the jumper off.

well the last time the players had this opp was in the last 6 games 2011. and IT wasn't done,

another stand in coach and no leadership at the club to tell him to play bottom listed players

that way the new coach gets a look at them PRIOR to the draft

  On 05/08/2013 at 04:36, jazza said:

well the last time the players had this opp was in the last 6 games 2011. and IT wasn't done,

another stand in coach and no leadership at the club to tell him to play bottom listed players

that way the new coach gets a look at them PRIOR to the draft

I trust PJ to make the right call on Watto...

  On 05/08/2013 at 04:36, jazza said:

well the last time the players had this opp was in the last 6 games 2011. and IT wasn't done,

another stand in coach and no leadership at the club to tell him to play bottom listed players

that way the new coach gets a look at them PRIOR to the draft

Jazza with the exception of a couple that have had bad starts though injury I think we have seen almost everyone on the list.

I don't believe there are any gems there starved for exposure.

We have a lot of gravel and no matter how much you polish them you end up with gravel.

The gems need to be recruited over the next 3 -4 years.

  On 05/08/2013 at 04:44, old dee said:

Jazza with the exception of a couple that have had bad starts though injury I think we have seen almost everyone on the list.

I don't believe there are any gems there starved for exposure.

We have a lot of gravel and no matter how much you polish them you end up with gravel.

The gems need to be recruited over the next 3 -4 years.

mate Davey should be retired with decorum in these last few games

I hope theres no players in need of operations, as they should be in the outpaddock already

non of this happened in 2011

my thoughts are we may have seen most but lets give the new coach every chance to SEE

this WASNT done in 2011

  On 05/08/2013 at 02:59, dee-luded said:

thats right & I've been banging on about it making myself frowned on around here. the price you pay?

but I've had enough of this cancer... I new it was there, it was there in the 80's & it took a lot to break it down & Barass all but removed it.

..after which we had a period of healthy fortunes. but that petered away, after the same arrogance crept back in. this is the black side of our MCG home.

I had enough of it, before Barass came back, & I've had enough of it since 2006.... I was thinking then that that coach had to go as the cancer was evident, but only showing itself overtly every so many games. the writing was on the wall in 6 point print, but it was there.

... finally that team couldn't get themselves up to win for that coach, but won for a lesser caretaker, & we lost out on Cotchin...

the 'Soft' rot was certainly there, well & truly,,, but the winning games & the occasional flirt with finals, camouflaged it to most.

... the problem is we all thought that our Ex's,, after stints @ Hawthorn & Freo finals knew the way through our hells gate... time has shown they didn't & we got it badly wrong..

we went from 'lazy & weak' with aging talent, to new talent that was allowed to be soft & lazy.... we got worse than 2007 proved us.

the turning point was in late 2011... but that decision's 'good points', haven't been seen as yet, but they will have a very beneficial effect. we are on the way, but our culture has been cracked Open, and the new one hasn't really formed yet, so we are in a very vulnerable position atmo... like a Prem baby without a humidy crib.

we Must get a great coach this year... Or we tide it over for 12 months with what we've got, before that top coach is willing to Sign On.

... it's critical, we are on the cliff face looking out to see, knowing we cannot fly... but the authorities Know where we are, & have no intention of letting us fall.

Deeluded,

How was late 2011 a turning point for turning around our culture? I have heard you say this a few times and wonder what they have been putting in your tap water. Mark Neeld's mantra of 'my way or the highway' may have made us all feel great as we could live vicariously throughMN as he gave the players the scaldings we wished we could. Facts are though after X amount of time the effect of constant haranguing wears off and causes resentment. People have egos and different personalities and gone are the days where kids especially just don't do as their told. The carrot and stick approach was needed. Unfortunately MN looked at the carrot and walloped the donkey over the head with it as well.

You know my opinion on Daniher and I can appreciate the argument that people at the club were getting too comfortable towards the end of his tenure (something I hope you were intimating in this post and not that his entire reign was a disaster). As for Mark Neeld, I felt sorry for him when he was sacked and hold no ill will towards him. But to say his appointment was nothing short of a disaster is ludicrous and this is coming from someone who supported his appointment.

  On 05/08/2013 at 02:19, AdamFarr said:

I agree to an extent here. Once we inject some experience and class into our midfield, we will improve drastically. Our list is in better shape than many outsiders and indeed MFC supporters think. We just have an absolutely dearth of talent and experience in the most important place on the ground.

Anyway, the part I disagree with is that the midfield is 'the easiest part of a list to put together'. Everyone says this, but to me it's a bit of a fallacy. I turned 26 in June and during my 26 years of supporting the MFC, I cannot recall us ever having an elite midfield. We've had front running midfields with some B graders that have had A grade years, but never consistent champs. That's what this club needs if it's to seriously challenge in this league. The rest of the pieces are slowly falling into the right place, but Cotchin's game against Hawthorn on Saturday highlighted further the importance of dominant midfielders, who can stand up against the very best opposition. We need A graders. We need at least two A graders to start with and then they will elevate someone like Nathan Jones to A grade.

It's easier said than done. I won't go into who we should target specifically, because I've banged on about that across a couple of other threads, but on the whole, I agree that we certainly have the makings (ie potential) of a very good list. It's all about development, experience and game plans.

We may appear soulless at the moment, but it was never going to turn around quickly. It takes a good HOF, a top-line coach that can instigate change and the continued support of the AFL to ensure our board and football club have the support they need to turn it around.

I should have qualified my claim that the midfield is 'the easiest part of a list to put together' by pointing out that my statement assumes competent recruitment and competent player development. I'm convinced our failure to have a decent midfield is partly about poor recruitment but primarily due to appalling player development.

  On 05/08/2013 at 06:03, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

I should have qualified my claim that the midfield is 'the easiest part of a list to put together' by pointing out that my statement assumes competent recruitment and competent player development. I'm convinced our failure to have a decent midfield is partly about poor recruitment but primarily due to appalling player development.

Funny I think it is the other way round

  On 05/08/2013 at 04:39, dee-luded said:

I trust PJ to make the right call on Watto...

why would a ceo make a call on a player?

this is the same thing people criticised schwab for

edit:sp

  On 05/08/2013 at 02:06, iv said:

While I accept it was a different time. There were quite a number of players in this 1988 grand final team that weren't exactly A-Graders. Still, they gave me a lot to cheer about.

Melbourne B: 9 Alan Johnson 18 Steven Stretch 14 Rod Grinter HB: 34 Stephen Newport 28 Jamie Duursma 17 Brett Lovett C: 12 Todd Viney 7 Brian Wilson 8 Graeme Yeats HF: 3 Garry Lyon 5 Earl Spalding 15 David Williams F: 11 Jim Stynes 27 Sean Wight 45 Ricky Jackson Foll: 10 Danny Hughes 16 Andy Lovell 33 Greg Healy © Int: 37 David Flintoff 21 Steven Febey Coach: John Northey

Cannot see a "non Tryer" among them ... can anyone else ?